Do Sleepers make money?

[Nym]

Theres five platforms...

 

[HSTEd]

Oops, you need two additional trains:

1. The highland Sleeper
2. The Edinburgh Portion of the Lowland Sleeper
3. The Glasgow Portion of the Lowland Sleeper
4. The Night Riviera
5. ..... Some sort of International thing perhaps if a security barrier can be put up to isolate one platform from the others practically.

 

[ainsworth74]

Additionally the platform length issues just became completely moot, which removes the need for the shunting operations on the Highland Sleeper to attach a lounge and seating vehicle to the Fort William Portion.

That was the other advantage of Waterloo International you can marshal the rake in London then just have to split it on route (or join it up). Also means that we don't have the silly situation where we have to use a Mk2 lounge car because a Mk3 would put the locomotive off the end of the platform at Euston!

 

[4SRKT]

That was the other advantage of Waterloo International you can marshal the rake in London then just have to split it on route (or join it up). Also means that we don't have the silly situation where we have to use a Mk2 lounge car because a Mk3 would put the locomotive off the end of the platform at Euston!

The current situation suits me mind ((((mk IIs))))

 

[43167]

The Plymouth sleeping car was taken off and shunted by an 08 until about 5 years ago. It definitely operated in September 2005 because I had 08644 for haulage when on my way to the Bodmin & Wenford for a diesel gala.

As for the Scottish sleeper the Fort William sleeper was temporarily dropped at around the time of privatisation, replaced by a bizarre parliamentary service (Ashfield to Bishopbriggs if I remember correctly) until Scotrail were forced to reinstate it.

It never stopped running. There were plans to withdraw the FW Beds and it came very close to the chop.

 

[kylemore]

EDIT:
That sort of traffic has gone over to the roads or even airfreight and I'm not sure rail could compete.
Newspaper Traffic is completely gone thanks to computing and distributed printing and the Royal Mail has its own trains or just uses the roads now.

Well I would have thought a pallet of high value seafood loaded directly from processing shed at Mallaig onto van and unloaded approx 11 hours later on time to be on lunch tables throughout London next day is quite a competitive logistics product.
Frankly if the Railways or the people in charge of them, in particular the West Highland line do not investigate every possibility of making themselves useful they deserve to die.

 

[Essexman]

Sounds a good idea in theory but not sure if practical. Also road transport is so cheap (we send a pallet of goods from Essex to Glasgow overnight for about £70) so not sure it would be worthwhile - hence rail freight moved from small units to mainly train loads.
They do carry goods on the sleeper in a very small and I'm sure unoffical way - last time I travelled a lady at one of the stations south of Fort William gave some bags of fudge to the guard to be sold on the Jacobite to Mallaig.

 

[Holly]

The time will surely come when it is needed to replace sleeper coaches and it presents an opportunity to do it better. Notwithstanding that sleeper carriages last longer than other stock and wear out slower, due in part to slower speeds and less average miles and stops per week.

Another thread references the golden age, a time when we were younger, healthier and many problems had been vanquished. It is an unfortunate fact that too many of those vanquished problems are coming back to haunt us, notably insect infestations. Insect infestations are a big and growing problem world wide. Count yourself lucky if you have never had a problem and start taking precautions now - they are a lot easier and more pleasant than remedies. Women are more used to being suspicious and taking precautions generally, it is a way of life for us, our menfolk need to get up to speed.

It is all made worse by the modern preoccupation with profit at the expense of all else. Sleepers should be designed to be good as a first priority, profitable as a second. It is generally important that railways return to an emphasis on service over profit but even more important for something as long term as sleeper rolling stock (not to mention so very intimate to those who use them).

A new sleeper should be designed to provide
1. Many passengers carried per coach.
2. Built in resistance to development of unhygienic conditions.
3. Comfort.
4. Equipment for efficient running, notably coupling and decoupling that is not labour intensive.

Have better designs been put forward for loco hauled coaching stock?
Accommodations and that are dense, comfortable and can be fumigated and sterilised easily, cheaply and routinely? Perhaps a novel accommodation layout is called for.

And if sleepers are simply uneconomical in modern times then overnight coach sets with good leg room, good luggage space and reclining seats are needed.

 

[142094]

Well I would have thought a pallet of high value seafood loaded directly from processing shed at Mallaig onto van and unloaded approx 11 hours later on time to be on lunch tables throughout London next day is quite a competitive logistics product.
Frankly if the Railways or the people in charge of them, in particular the West Highland line do not investigate every possibility of making themselves useful they deserve to die.

20 years ago this would have been possible but not now due to the vast changed we've seen in railfreight. There are no refridgerated vans around and hardly any depots to unload stock such as this these days - and you'd still need road transport somewhere in the equation. Plus the seafood would normally go to either a supermarket or wholesale warehouse before going to individual stores.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

20 years ago this would have been possible but not now due to the vast changed we've seen in railfreight. There are no refridgerated vans around and hardly any depots to unload stock such as this these days - and you'd still need road transport somewhere in the equation. Plus the seafood would normally go to either a supermarket or wholesale warehouse before going to individual stores.

Plus any specialized vehicle is likley to not get a back load.....the economics of the sleeper arent going to be changed by a few crates of fish and seafood (unfortunately)

 

[142094]

Plus any specialized vehicle is likley to not get a back load.....the economics of the sleeper arent going to be changed by a few crates of fish and seafood (unfortunately)

Exactly - unless there was some wierd flow of frozen food to the north of Scotland from London.

Interestingly one of the strangest flows I have heard of is baked beans and Kelloggs from Manchester to Italy. Not sure if it still runs but someone I know at TfGM says it still does.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well I would have thought a pallet of high value seafood loaded directly from processing shed at Mallaig onto van and unloaded approx 11 hours later on time to be on lunch tables throughout London next day is quite a competitive logistics product.
Frankly if the Railways or the people in charge of them, in particular the West Highland line do not investigate every possibility of making themselves useful they deserve to die.

Wagon load rail freight is not profitable and if something isn't profitable then its not worth doing.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wagon load rail freight is not profitable and if something isn't profitable then its not worth doing.

I discovered this from 1984 to 1989 as a Speedlink Contract and Resources Manager -

I discovered the going rate for a load of timber from the West Highland to Workington was £60 a wagon ! (inherited rates) - this is all we could get for a trunk haul , and whilst it looked good on the trains , it lost a bucket of money as a round trip was 4 days.

Only trainload made real sense .....and there were some excellent and valuable flows.


(and as for International traffic via the Train Ferry .....by the time you had paid the European operators and the Port of Dover / Sealink - you had a couple of quid for "contribution" to BR) - a basket case to say the least.

 

[kylemore]

Well there doe'snt seem to be much of a future then!
I really don't see the SNP matching the funds put up by the UK govt.
And who can blame them, I can think of 100 better uses for £50m worth of transport spending in Scotland rather than propping up lame duck sleepers.
At the very most create 4 re-furbished half sets from the best of the present vehicles for a basic Glasgow/Edinburgh - Euston service, even better run it into St Pancras with through fares on Eurostar/DB ICE early morning departures - Leave Glasgow/Edinburgh at Midnight be in Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne 10/11am ish. It might catch on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well there doe'snt seem to be much of a future then!
I really don't see the SNP matching the funds put up by the UK govt.
And who can blame them, I can think of 100 better uses for £50m worth of transport spending in Scotland rather than propping up lame duck sleepers.
At the very most create 4 re-furbished half sets from the best of the present vehicles for a basic Glasgow/Edinburgh - Euston service, even better run it into St Pancras with through fares on Eurostar/DB ICE early morning departures - Leave Glasgow/Edinburgh at Midnight be in Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne 10/11am ish. It might catch on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well there doe'snt seem to be much of a future then!
I really don't see the SNP matching the funds put up by the UK govt.
And who can blame them, I can think of 100 better uses for £50m worth of transport spending in Scotland rather than propping up lame duck sleepers.
At the very most create 4 re-furbished half sets from the best of the present vehicles for a basic Glasgow/Edinburgh - Euston service, even better run it into St Pancras with through fares on Eurostar/DB ICE early morning departures - Leave Glasgow/Edinburgh at Midnight be in Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne 10/11am ish. It might catch on!

 

[williamn]

According to the latest Railway Magazine, sleeper carriages are to be replaced, subject to the Scottish government also putting money in. £50m to be spent apparently.

 

[RichmondCommu]

At the very most create 4 re-furbished half sets from the best of the present vehicles for a basic Glasgow/Edinburgh - Euston service, even better run it into St Pancras with through fares on Eurostar/DB ICE early morning departures - Leave Glasgow/Edinburgh at Midnight be in Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne 10/11am ish. It might catch on!

Trust me, it wouldn't! Flying would be much quicker and allows you to have a good nights sleep in your own bed which is priceless if you have a long day ahead of you.

 

[4SRKT]

Trust me, it wouldn't! Flying would be much quicker and allows you to have a good nights sleep in your own bed which is priceless if you have a long day ahead of you.

As discussed upthread flying is often quicker but the sleeper still exists. It's about individuals making choices, not about what you think will and won't catch on.

 

[stut]

Trust me, it wouldn't! Flying would be much quicker and allows you to have a good nights sleep in your own bed which is priceless if you have a long day ahead of you.

For me, a night's sleep that ends in a 4am taxi to the airport will never be a "good night's sleep", wherever that bed is.

 

[jon0844]

Trust me, it wouldn't! Flying would be much quicker and allows you to have a good nights sleep in your own bed which is priceless if you have a long day ahead of you.

Almost every response seems to involve the benefit of sleeping in your own bed.. I think it's time to consider getting a job where you can work from home.

I do like my own bed, sure, but sometimes I'd rather not have to get out of it at 3am or not get into it until 3am - so sleeping a good 7-8 hours elsewhere is actually more appealing than having a good sleep cut short just to be in my own bed!

There's no harm in saying you prefer it that way, but there are some people who would (and do) disagree with you.

 

[Greenback]

I'm with you on that one Mr Morris!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Almost every response seems to involve the benefit of sleeping in your own bed.. I think it's time to consider getting a job where you can work from home.

I do like my own bed, sure, but sometimes I'd rather not have to get out of it at 3am or not get into it until 3am - so sleeping a good 7-8 hours elsewhere is actually more appealing than having a good sleep cut short just to be in my own bed!

There's no harm in saying you prefer it that way, but there are some people who would (and do) disagree with you.

I would love to work from home but alas this wouldn't go down very well with the company I work for. If I have to get up early then I simply go to bed early. My point is I would rather spend a night with my wife and kids than being thrown about by DBS, SNCF and everyone else!

When I went inter railing in my late teens / early 20's I used couchettes on many occasions but they are not so appealing now that I'm 45! I'm really not sure that the rail network in the UK is really suited to having over night trains with beds but that of course is my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As discussed upthread flying is often quicker but the sleeper still exists. It's about individuals making choices, not about what you think will and won't catch on.

True but surely this forum (like all forums) is about opinions?

 

[jon0844]

Of course it is about opinions, and the varied opinions prove that flying, trains, boats and cars are all viable options for differing reasons (thus, instead of flying in 3 hours we're going to Sweden by train/boat/train which will take quite a bit longer).

But you've been very quick to dismiss anything else for the sake of being able to spend more time in your own bed and with family - which is fine.. but perhaps it's worth saying 'for me, I'd prefer to be home' than quickly dismiss the other options.

 

[kylemore]

According to the latest Railway Magazine, sleeper carriages are to be replaced, subject to the Scottish government also putting money in. £50m to be spent apparently.

I think a lot of water will have to pass under the bridge before we see shiny new sleepers! The operative phrase being "subject to".
But lets assume no problems and we have a situation where the two govts are about to plough £100m into a service which even the vast majority of members on here (surely pro-rail to a man/woman) think has no future and is incapable of development.
Does not bode well does it?

 

[Nym]

IMO, it all depends on what and where tbh, if the're EMUs with generators in the seated coaches with a go anywhere envelope that don't require locomotives then the future looks brighter because of reduced running costs, especially if a 'London Sleeper Terminal' is made up. I also think there is a market to split the lowland sleeper via the ECML and WCML, with the ECML going to Glasgow via Edinbrugh and the WCML splitting as it does now, but run by a 6 car EDMU rather than coaching stock. There is a market IMO for sleepers via York and Doncaster and to run via Manchester Piccadilly in the case of the Highland sleeper.

 

[kylemore]

Trust me, it wouldn't! Flying would be much quicker and allows you to have a good nights sleep in your own bed which is priceless if you have a long day ahead of you.

I was thinking more of the leisure market but even for business types/eurocrats what would you rather do, get up at 3/4am to drive to the airport to be there at 5.30am for a 7am flight or 4 or 5 hours earlier saunter on to sleeper, shove your bags in your cabin, enjoy a relaxing pint in the lounge car before snoozing for 6 hrs or so (I agree a sound sleep is rare on sleepers but certainly better than waiting for the alarm to go off at 3.30am!).
Next morning you grab a coffee and a bacon roll and join the 8am (approx) to Brussels/Paris arriving 10am-ish, or in the near future Amsterdam/Koeln/Frankfurt by 11/12am-ish?
Certainly I know if it was the former I would yawning in the face of any important potential clients etc by 11am if I had a morning meeting!

 

[williamn]

The Scottish Government has agreed to match the £50 million, so looks like it will happen.

 

[jon0844]

Given there are people using sleepers in regular seats (which I presume recline), I am of the opinion that a future sleeper service would best be made to look like that of a long-haul airline. Some could see this as a step back, but not if it means they can be saved.

You may even be able to get rid of cabins completely if you look at the first class/upper class layouts on planes. Then you could have something like premium economy and economy. Make sure each coach has decent toilet facilities, and a shower or two for first class and then price each section accordingly.

You then make sure you staff the train as appropriate, to offer food/drink to people - free in first and chargeable in standard/economy.

If the megabus idea is working, surely that setup could be 'stolen' for economy to get more people on the train, thus making it more profitable. Without cabins (or a lot less if you want to reserve some for an upper class offering) there would be a lot more room. With more seats, you could then introduce cheap tickets on a limited quota like the rest of the railway.

Would sleeping be harder? Well, no different to a plane where I'll usually take earplugs to block out the plane noise and that of others snoring. Sure it wouldn't be AS comfortable as your own room/bed, but it would probably make the sleeper get to a point where it could turn a profit, or at least cover its costs.

 

[kylemore]

The Scottish Government has agreed to match the £50 million, so looks like it will happen.

Well lets hope they don't make a sow's ear of it!
Also I hope they employ some clever and innovative people to come up with ways of promoting and developing the product.
If they just replace the rolling stock but leave it as it is it's a dead duck!

 

[tbtc]

As discussed upthread flying is often quicker but the sleeper still exists. It's about individuals making choices, not about what you think will and won't catch on.

It still exists, because its heavily subsidised.

I doubt there's any commercial viability in running a sleeper service - IIRC no TOC since privatisation has suggested expanding sleeper operation (e.g. a GNER sleeper from London to Newcastle). Sleepers are essentially a luxury subsidised by regular passengers and tax-payers.

 

[4SRKT]

It still exists, because its heavily subsidised.

TBF I didn't say it wasn't.