Do some long-distance trains have no advance tickets?

[telstarbox]

Last night I was on National Rail Enqs at the stroke of midnight to book a ticket on Thurs 25 November as I understand tickets are released 12 weeks in advance. I tried to book an early evening fare from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston (on Virgin Trains) but there were no advance fares available - all the suggested journeys were using off-peak singles (at walk-up prices).

As the Manchester-London services are very busy around this time, does this mean that the advance fares are all snapped up very quickly, or do VT simply not bother offering cheap advance fares because they know the train will be full anyway?

Cheers for any help!

 

[yorkie]

Last night I was on National Rail Enqs at the stroke of midnight to book a ticket on Thurs 25 November as I understand tickets are released 12 weeks in advance. I tried to book an early evening fare from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston (on Virgin Trains) but there were no advance fares available - all the suggested journeys were using off-peak singles (at walk-up prices).

As the Manchester-London services are very busy around this time, does this mean that the advance fares are all snapped up very quickly, or do VT simply not bother offering cheap advance fares because they know the train will be full anyway?

Cheers for any help!

See http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/booking_horizons.html

Virgin Trains are currently reservable up to 19 November.

 

[philjo]

According to the calendar on the Virgin Trains website, they are only booking up to Friday 19 November at the moment.

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets-offers/

 

[telstarbox]

OK thanks. So it's not universal that fares are always available 12 weeks before the travel date, but depends on the TOC?

Also will the NRE site always give the cheapest advance fares for a particular journey, or is it worth checking VT's site as well?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well you can't book tickets through NRE so you may as well buy them from Virgin just to see if they have any offers that you can take advantage of.

 

[Deerfold]

As a general reply, yes some long distance trains have no advance tickets. Train companies are perfectly at liberty to have trains for which they offer no advance tickets - and some companies do not offer them at all - e.g. Grand Central.

 

[jamesontheroad]

As a general reply, yes some long distance trains have no advance tickets. Train companies are perfectly at liberty to have trains for which they offer no advance tickets - and some companies do not offer them at all - e.g. Grand Central.

And some, like XC, have precious few on popular routes. There should theoretically be some great value Advance fares on direct trains between Glasgow Central and Penzance, but I've never seem 'em

 

[Lee_Again]

And some, like XC, have precious few on popular routes.

Quite right too. Advance tickets are to sell seats on otherwise empty trains. I get fed up getting on packed trains where half the load has only paid a tenner for a ticket.

I recently wrote in another thread about paying only £13 from Carlisle to Stevenage via Leeds and York. Thing was, our group of 8 had to kick out 8 unfortunate customers at York who were in our seats. The train was rammed. They were on walk-on fares from Newcastle and had to spend the next 2 hours stood up. Why were cheap fares made available on a busy train? Total madness.

 

[MCR247]

Advance tickets aren't to sell seats on empty trains! They are released 12 weeks before regardless. If you have a walk on fare, it is a risk you have to take.

 

[Lee_Again]

Advance tickets aren't to sell seats on empty trains! They are released 12 weeks before regardless. If you have a walk on fare, it is a risk you have to take.

Advance Tickets are quota controlled and generally are not available on busy peak time services. The 12 weeks thing is as much to do with the timetable and reservation system.

My point, however, is that it's madness to sell cheap tickets on otherwise busy services. I take your point about the risk of walk on fares. The load on a train can be predicted quite accurately. Not always, I'll admit. But my train, for example, was a Sunday afternoon train from Edinburgh to London. These services are always busy.

As a more general point, the fares in this country are either too little or far too much. Why we can't have something simple sitting in the middle is beyond me? I, for one, will never have any repsect for 'Railway' management until this is resolved. Rant over...

 

[Greenback]

They are available on all, or almost all, trains. The price may be higher, and the quota smaller, but they will be available.

This did not used to be the case. Originally, Advance fares were indeed to fill otherwise empty seats on off peak trains. However, TOC's now like to shout about how cheap the fares can be, particularly when they are bringing in big increases on walk up tickets. Accordingly, they have increased the numbers of Advance tickets available over the last few years.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm particularly interested in the fabled £26 Advance single from Penzance to Glasgow Central on the direct XC service. Yes, it might be hell on earth to be on a train that long, but I might, for one rare occasion in my life, have the chance to take advantage of it. But can I find one? Can I hell.... and I check diligently every week when the next week opens up.

 

[Greenback]

That fare may only realistically be available for a journey with an overnight wait of several hours at Birmingham!!!!!

 

[stut]

Is there some kind of exception for journeys within the "network" area? IIRC, there are no Advance tickets on Paddington to Worcester, or King's Cross to Lynn, despite other journeys of equal length having them...

 

[shinkansen1966]

I'm particularly interested in the fabled £26 Advance single from Penzance to Glasgow Central on the direct XC service.

Where exactly did you hear of that travel bargain ? I've struggled to fine any decent deals on XC.

Over the years, reckon the Great British travelling public have become more savy at getting cheaper fares, thanks to the internet. At my work place and in my circle of friends, pretty much the nominated 'geek' to assist with getting pals/colleagues the best deals. And I'm sure this is repeated up and down the land. Moneysaving experts web site has some useful tips too.

All in all, advance purchase tickets are become the staple for long distance travel. Being unregulated, you might see some prices rises in the future...

 

[Lee_Again]

I'm particularly interested in the fabled £26 Advance single from Penzance to Glasgow Central on the direct XC service. Yes, it might be hell on earth to be on a train that long, but I might, for one rare occasion in my life, have the chance to take advantage of it. But can I find one? Can I hell.... and I check diligently every week when the next week opens up.

£26 from Penzance to Glasgow says all you need to know about train fares in this country. Equally, the £180(ish) pounds Any Time Single is equally as daft.

As an aside, what do we think the fare should be? I'll start by saying that an advance ticket should cost £50/£66 (50% - 2 week min,66% up to day before). Off Peak Single £75 (75%) and a Full Open should be £100 (on tha basis that I think a maximum fare of £200 should apply for any Open Return). First Class would be an additional 50%; just bigger seats in private area, 75% including at least free hot/cold drinks, news paper, WiFi and small snack, 100% if full hot meal is provided.

 

[shinkansen1966]

IIRC, the wide and (seemingly) random nature of train fares in the country has been criticised by the Commons Transport Select Committee. Just been on the SNCF web site for a bit of research.

Lille Europe->Marseilles on the direct TGV, a distance of approx 600 miles. About the same as say Dundee to Plymouth.

If you want to go next Friday (9 Sept) on the most flexible ticket, it's £109 one way. Nothing cheaper. Fully refundable.

If you want to go Friday 5 November, cheapest is £39.50, or £65.50 (can be refunded day before) or £107.00 (can be fully refunded 2 hrs AFTER departure). Cheapest to most expensive is a multiple of 3.

For the XC discussed fares, cheapest to most expensive is a multiple of 7.

The SNCF/XC comparison is a little unfair. The TGV makes a few stops and all seats must be reserved. But it's an interesting illustration. And it shows what happens when a private company (Arriva XC) is allowed to mess about with the fares on what was once a public service (British Rail).

 

[MCR247]

Advance Tickets are quota controlled and generally are not available on busy peak time services. The 12 weeks thing is as much to do with the timetable and reservation system.

My point, however, is that it's madness to sell cheap tickets on otherwise busy services. I take your point about the risk of walk on fares. The load on a train can be predicted quite accurately. Not always, I'll admit. But my train, for example, was a Sunday afternoon train from Edinburgh to London. These services are always busy.

As a more general point, the fares in this country are either too little or far too much. Why we can't have something simple sitting in the middle is beyond me? I, for one, will never have any repsect for 'Railway' management until this is resolved. Rant over...

You may not have noticed but most XC routes on the core are busy...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC, the wide and (seemingly) random nature of train fares in the country has been criticised by the Commons Transport Select Committee. Just been on the SNCF web site for a bit of research.

Lille Europe->Marseilles on the direct TGV, a distance of approx 600 miles. About the same as say Dundee to Plymouth.

If you want to go next Friday (9 Sept) on the most flexible ticket, it's £109 one way. Nothing cheaper. Fully refundable.

If you want to go Friday 5 November, cheapest is £39.50, or £65.50 (can be refunded day before) or £107.00 (can be fully refunded 2 hrs AFTER departure). Cheapest to most expensive is a multiple of 3.

For the XC discussed fares, cheapest to most expensive is a multiple of 7.

The SNCF/XC comparison is a little unfair. The TGV makes a few stops and all seats must be reserved. But it's an interesting illustration. And it shows what happens when a private company (Arriva XC) is allowed to mess about with the fares on what was once a public service (British Rail).

But XC must be one of the most expensive TOCs in the UK. What about if SNCF are more expensive on some routes. East Coast for example, are quite often very cheap, so I wouldn't say its a fair comparison

 

[shinkansen1966]

But XC must be one of the most expensive TOCs in the UK. What about if SNCF are more expensive on some routes. East Coast for example, are quite often very cheap, so I wouldn't say its a fair comparison

I have no idea why XC are so expensive. As taxpayers, this financial year, will give them over £200 million. And they still need to charge so much for their train tickets. Though by March 2014, the annual subisdy goes down to £5 million. source: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/winnernewcrosscounty

Yet, EC makes money. EC more than covers the cost of running the service from ticket sales. It did when it was under GNER/NX. The only issue was that both these companies screwed up and offered to give more money to the government to run the service than they could actually afford.

 

[MikeWh]

Is there some kind of exception for journeys within the "network" area? IIRC, there are no Advance tickets on Paddington to Worcester, or King's Cross to Lynn, despite other journeys of equal length having them...

I can't comment on other operators but SWT offer advances on the Weymouth line beyond Bournemouth and that is part of the old NSE area.

 

[sheff1]

£26 from Penzance to Glasgow says all you need to know about train fares in this country. Equally, the £180(ish) pounds Any Time Single is equally as daft.

As an aside, what do we think the fare should be? I'll start by saying that an advance ticket should cost £50/£66 (50% - 2 week min,66% up to day before). Off Peak Single £75 (75%) and a Full Open should be £100 (on tha basis that I think a maximum fare of £200 should apply for any Open Return). First Class would be an additional 50%; just bigger seats in private area, 75% including at least free hot/cold drinks, news paper, WiFi and small snack, 100% if full hot meal is provided.

I agree that £100 for an unrestricted ticket is about right with a 50% First Class mark up.

Another £50 for a hot meal sounds a bit steep though. I prefer it when the First Class fare doesn't include meals but you pay for what you want - that way you don't feel ripped off when the meal service isn't available after a certain time or towards the end of a journey, but the fare remains the same. Alternatively, adopt the German & Swiss model where the restaurant remains open for the whole journey.

 

[OwlMan]

I am travelling from Coventry to Torquay in a few weeks.

Looked up XC advance fares and for 2 people the cost was £170

Instead I got 4 virgin advance fares to Euston from Coventry for £28
and 4 FGW advance from Paddington to Torquay for £68 Total £96.
With cross london bus fares included a saving of about £70.

XC is far too expensive.

Peter

 

[jamesontheroad]

Where exactly did you hear of that travel bargain ? I've struggled to fine any decent deals on XC.

NRE's Cheapest Fare Finder

 

[Greenback]

I am travelling from Coventry to Torquay in a few weeks.

Looked up XC advance fares and for 2 people the cost was £170

Instead I got 4 virgin advance fares to Euston from Coventry for £28
and 4 FGW advance from Paddington to Torquay for £68 Total £96.
With cross london bus fares included a saving of about £70.

XC is far too expensive.

Peter

Indeed, as you are probably well aware Peter, XC price a lot of the flows to and from the West Country and these fares are so high it is invariably much cheaper to travel via London or split the tickets.

I forget the details of how these anomalies with XC pricing developed, but I do recall it was some years ago now. Was it due to higher price rises on the XC routes around the time of Operation Princess? Or is my memory playing tricks again?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£26 from Penzance to Glasgow says all you need to know about train fares in this country. Equally, the £180(ish) pounds Any Time Single is equally as daft.

As an aside, what do we think the fare should be? I'll start by saying that an advance ticket should cost £50/£66 (50% - 2 week min,66% up to day before). Off Peak Single £75 (75%) and a Full Open should be £100 (on tha basis that I think a maximum fare of £200 should apply for any Open Return). First Class would be an additional 50%; just bigger seats in private area, 75% including at least free hot/cold drinks, news paper, WiFi and small snack, 100% if full hot meal is provided.

In principle, I think that there is far too much of a difference between the cheapest Advance fares and the most expensive walk up fares. I'd like to see this narrowed.

Unfortunately, given the fragmented, privatised system we have, I can't see any changes being made of this nature unless the overall benefit is an increase in revenue for the TOC's. They are reluctant to consider a national railcard for example. My fear would be that, like fares 'simplification'. the effect of any change to the current system would be to the detriment of the majority of passengers.