Do the Railway Byelaws trump the NRCoT?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by bishop stone, 5 Feb 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bishop stone

    bishop stone New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    28 Jul 2018
    Here is a hypothetical situation.

    An advance fare from point A to point C, going through, and stopping at point B, is significantly cheaper than one between point A and point B on the same train. The NRCoT are very clear that you can't end your journey and will be charged the difference in the fare between what you have paid for your ticket and the cheapest fare on the day if you do end your journey at point B.
    However on every train there is a notice that if you feel unwell (just before point B say) you should alight there. The Byelaws say that you must comply with such notices, which I would guess means that the TOC shouldn't ask you to pay for the difference in the fares. Opinions please?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. superjohn

    superjohn Member

    Messages:
    216
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2011
    I suspect that it is an infrequent enough occurrence that there is no official guidance and it is left to staff discretion. I’m sure an obviously unwell passenger would be assisted by any staff they encounter. If the same thing happened regularly questions might be asked though.

    If I was feeling that unwell that I couldn’t continue the journey the ticketing implications wouldn’t be my priority. If I ended up having to pay extra that would just be one of those things.

    Call me a cynic but this question sounds a bit MPotteresque but I could be wrong.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    46,686
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Mr Potter's questions are now posted at https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=225 and http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway but if anyone has any concerns about any post on this forum please use the report button.

    Moving swiftly on....

    If someone was feeling unwell and adhered to advice to finish their journey at an intermediate station, no excess could be charged.

    Incidentally I've never heard of anyone actually be charged an excess in accordance with the NRCoT for finishing short when not permitted.

    There were a few media reports of cases where people were wrongly charged new fares, which resulted in refunds and apologies being issued, and the rail industry decided after that to have a 'hands off' approach to avoid more negative publicity.
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    48,825
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    If you alighted because you were unwell then an additional fare would not be charged. In such a case staff are going to know, because you would most probably go to them and ask for (a) an ambulance if really bad, or (b) if your ticket could be endorsed to allow you to continue or to return home - you would be unlikely to wish to pass the barrier or leave the station other than in an ambulance. Or if nothing else you'd be sat on a bench looking unwell and they might come over to see if you were OK.

    If there weren't any such staff, most likely there would also be no barrier so you wouldn't be challenged whatever the reason.

    If it was a walk-up fare, you haven't broken your journey if you remain on the platform, at least by convention (it's no longer written) so there's nothing to enforce. You can wait until you feel better then continue your journey without intervention anyway.
     
  6. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,596
    Joined:
    24 Dec 2009
    Location:
    Sheffield
    These notices must be rather inconspicuous as I don't recall ever seeing one. Have you got an image of one?
     
  7. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

    Messages:
    6,008
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2011
    I can't say I've seen one 'on every train', but such notices are ubiquitous at LU (and some TOC) stations in the summer - along with advice to carry a bottle of water. This is an example tweeted out by SWR.

    [​IMG]
    Source: https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/1153702568012464129
    Image shows advice from SWR about travelling in hot weather: including "if you feel unwell on board one of our trains, please get off at the next stop and seek assistance from staff".
     
  8. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

    Messages:
    676
    Joined:
    16 Jun 2019
    Location:
    London
    I thought there were reports some years back of people with London to just-south-of-Gatwick tickets being stopped from exiting the barriers at Gatwick without extra payment, since London-Grotwick tickets were higher than tickets to some places beyond?
     
  9. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member Associate Staff General Discussion

    Messages:
    5,957
    Joined:
    1 Sep 2014
    Location:
    here to eternity
    Switching to pedant mode, the notice states that you must "get off at the next stop and seek assistance from staff". It doesn't say you should leave the station the act of which could lead to you being in breach of the NRCoT as you may be deemed to be stopping short. It is a subtle difference but one that needs mentioning.
     
  10. superjohn

    superjohn Member

    Messages:
    216
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2011
    I have seen the notices on some trains and platforms but not everywhere. They are understandably more often found in driver only operating areas. I have always understood them to be advisory. It certainly is better not to pull the alarm, especially on older stock where this would immediately apply the brakes, in such situations. I have never perceived it as an instruction enshrined in the bylaws any more than I would the part about carrying water. I think it would take a very selective reading of the posters to infer that, hence my earlier suspicions.
     
  11. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    46,686
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I very much doubt that; there aren't any Advance fares to stations just south of Gatwick that are cheaper than fares to Gatwick, are there?

    Also may retail systems cannot physically issue such excess fares for what would be the correct amount, which is probably a contributory factor for the lack of excess fares issued.

    I have many contacts and none of them has been able to confirm any incidents of charging in accordance with the NRCoT. I'm not saying that necessarily that means it has never happened but it must be incredibly rare!
     
  12. bishop stone

    bishop stone New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    28 Jul 2018
    Erm, I don't know who the Mr Potter is, referred to earlier, or why my post reminds anyone ov him, but no, I am not said Mr Potter.

    In reply to the Gatwick point, yes there are definitely cheap advance fares to Brighton (£5) and other stations on the South Coast which are significantly cheaper than London to Gatwick. I regularly get them but, I hasten to add, I have never got off at Gatwick but it did prompt me to wonder about it and hence post the question.
     
  13. bishop stone

    bishop stone New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    28 Jul 2018
    I don't have a picture of one but they are normally by the doors and yes, they are not especially conspicuous at least not the ones I see.
     
  14. RJ

    RJ Established Member

    Messages:
    7,471
    Joined:
    25 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Rail replacement bus cab
    This just seems like an exercise in establishing the feasibility of getting away with abusing the conditions of Advance tickets.

    If you like the price but not the conditions then it's not the correct ticket to buy. Oyster/contactless fares to Gatwick are very reasonable.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page