Do trams need L plates?

[TransportHub]

I saw a Sheffield Super tram network and saw a driver training run pass though, which had an electronic L plate on the destination board. This is at Meadowhall South so on the tram only part of the network, but that prompted the question, are L plates required on trams when they run on the public roads in the same way they are required to have indicators and brake lights? And if so is the electronic version sufficient or is a 'real' one needed like with a car?

 

[swt_passenger]

Good question. L plates used on road vehicles are required to be an exact size in mm, and that electronic version is not in the right proportions at all. But does a trainee tram driver even need L plates, I’ve no idea.

 

[Chris M]

There is a photo here of a Blackpool tram with an L-plate in the window, and a description of a tram driving experience on the Seaton Tramway includes the following:

We were met by his instructor, Michael, who welcomed us and showed us around the tram which was just for us. It came with a large red 'L' plate and 'learner driver under instruction' sign on the front.

 

[507 001]

No, they’re not required.

We usually put driver training up on the blind, but that’s about it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, they’re not required.

We usually put driver training up on the blind, but that’s about it.

Not even on street running sections, like the line to/from Eccles? Also, do Metrolink tram drivers need to have full - rather than provisional - (and clean) UK driving licences?

 

[The exile]

I would have thought that very little that is the standard (car) driving test would be of much benefit to a tram driver - braking distances being a particular case in point!

 

[Lemmy282]

It is a requirement that a tram driver holds a UK driving licence, they are driving on the highway after all. They need to be conversant with the rules of the road, road signage etc. even though they have their own signs.
I drive on a heritage tramway, and even though it is not on a public road, we must hold a current driving licence to comply with industry regulations, and it is checked every year.

 

[D365]

No, they’re not required.

We usually put driver training up on the blind, but that’s about it.

As per this comment, I think the Supertram "L plate" is a novelty, rather than satisfying any legal requirements.

 

[Busaholic]

Many first generation tram drivers in London (and maybe other cities and towns) had never driven cars. so when conversion to trolleybus and diesel buses came they had to make a big decision: many. by no means just the oldest ones, never made the switch.

 

[185]

No, they’re not required.

Definitely not required but some years ago inspectors on the Eccles (allegedly) found an L-plate in the road and quietly affixed it to a certain driver's tram at Weaste. Cue howls from other drivers going past, 2 hours before he noticed it.

 

[Mothball]

Also, do Metrolink tram drivers need to have full - rather than provisional - (and clean) UK driving licences?

Taken from UK Trams "Tramway and guidance principals"

The Modification Regulations also extend section 87 of RTA so as to make it necessary for
the driver of a tramcar to possess a driving licence that authorises him or her to drive a
motor vehicle in category B, within the meaning of the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences)
Regulations 1999 (S.I.1999/2864), with a saving for persons who were already driving
tramcars during the year prior to 1 July 1992.

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought that very little that is the standard (car) driving test would be of much benefit to a tram driver - braking distances being a particular case in point!

The three-point turn would be a challenge.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The three-point turn would be a challenge.

Not in Manchester City Centre (Piccadilly Gardens area)!

 

[Roger1973]

Taken from UK Trams "Tramway and guidance principals"

I seem to remember reading something some years ago about the retirement of the last Blackpool tram driver who had never had a car or bus driving licence. If I remember right, he'd transferred to Blackpool from another first generation tramway when that closed.

Many first generation tram drivers in London (and maybe other cities and towns) had never driven cars. so when conversion to trolleybus and diesel buses came they had to make a big decision: many. by no means just the oldest ones, never made the switch.

Indeed - and many were in their 60s by then (at that time, London Transport crews could retire at 65 but drivers' compulsory retirement age was generally 70.)

Having said that, a number of LT bus drivers didn't have car licences at one time - either if their prior driving had been in the military (in some but not all circumstances you got a civilian driving licence when you were de-mobbed) or if they had started as a conductor. I think that under the pre 1990s rules, if you only had a PSV licence (as it then was) you didn't automatically have the right to drive a private car.

 

[WatcherZero]

I was interested so had a read of the tramway legislation and the Highway Code and there isnt a specific derogation from the highway code given to tram vehicles for L plates, so legally someone could challenge them on it however the defence would be the precedent that its never been previously legally enforced.

 

[jimbo99]

Some years ago I remember Croydon trams would display conventional L-plates when drivers were training.

 

[Bigchris]

I was in Blackpool last Monday and saw a tram with L-plates, it had a standard looking car L-plate in the front window and "Driver Training" on the display, with 3 people visible in the cab.

 

[WestCountry]

I was interested so had a read of the tramway legislation and the Highway Code and there isnt a specific derogation from the highway code given to tram vehicles for L plates, so legally someone could challenge them on it however the defence would be the precedent that its never been previously legally enforced.

I don't think that's correct. The requirement for an L plate is under The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999, 16 (2) (b):
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/regulation/16/made

It only applies to holders of a provisional license for the vehicle class. There's no license class specifically for tram drivers.

The road license requirement for tram drivers is under the Tramcars and Trolley Vehicles (Modification of Enactments) Regulations 1992, part III, 8:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1217/regulation/8/made

It requires tram drivers to hold a class B (car) license if they started driving trams after 1992, if before there's no requirement to hold a license at all.

If a new trainee had only a provisional car driver's license, in principle they could probably drive a tram under supervision with L-plates required, but all companies want trainees to have a full license first AFAIK.

There's no requirement for a driver with a full car licence to use L-plates when learning to drive a tram.

 

[WatcherZero]

Under that same legislation it requires driver instructors to be carrying a valid certificate issued by the Secretary of State under regulation 65(4) to instruct that vehicle type.

 

[Eyersey468]

My now ex stepdads dad apparently had on his driving licence a tram classification, does anyone know when it changed to just being a standard B licence?

 

[Flange Squeal]

I guess, although seemingly not a requirement for a Cat B licence holder, operators that do use L-plates (whether it be conventional ones applied to the vehicle or replications on the destination board as seen in one photo above) may do so in the hope that upon seeing it, other road users identify what it means and may naturally treat the tram with a bit more caution.

 

[Lemmy282]

Possibly, but probably more to inform intending passengers that the tram will not pick them up.

 

[Taunton]

My now ex stepdads dad apparently had on his driving licence a tram classification, does anyone know when it changed to just being a standard B licence?

Are you sure it was tram and not trolleybus? The trolleybus stuff was there until the early 1970s, it was on all the standard application forms until after the last trolleybus system finished, but my understanding was trams had always, like trains, been left to the operator's management to ensure competence.

It was there to be selected on the application, but you had to pass the test on one to get the licence. Cities with trolleybuses had to have an appropriate ministry examiner. The application form stated things like "have to be able to negotiate bends and junctions without dewiring"!

Going back to the days when traditional trams, and trolleybuses, were more usual, the driving staff quite commonly came from the sort of background, and had the sort of income, where nobody owned a car, and they had to be trained from first principles on how to drive. The military of the era had the same issue.

 

[Eyersey468]

Are you sure it was tram and not trolleybus? The trolleybus stuff was there until the early 1970s, it was on all the standard application forms until after the last trolleybus system finished, but my understanding was trams had always, like trains, been left to the operator's management to ensure competence.

It was there to be selected on the application, but you had to pass the test on one to get the licence. Cities with trolleybuses had to have an appropriate ministry examiner. The application form stated things like "have to be able to negotiate bends and junctions without dewiring"!

Going back to the days when traditional trams, and trolleybuses, were more usual, the driving staff quite commonly came from the sort of background, and had the sort of income, where nobody owned a car, and they had to be trained from first principles on how to drive. The military of the era had the same issue.

I was told tram but I suppose its possible it was actually a trolleybus, I never saw the licence as he had long since given up driving by this point so can't say for certain

 

[trainmananthon]

When I did my tram driver training in Blackpool, I had to hold a valid, clean drivers licence (not necessarily Cat B at first but it gets sent off to the DVLA whilst in training) and the tram was not allowed out of the depot without 'L plates' and 'driver training' on the destination display.

I think this was just company policy and nothing more, but not 100% sure

 

[Trackman]

As per this comment, I think the Supertram "L plate" is a novelty, rather than satisfying any legal requirements.

I think the same, it's just for show

 

[Egg Centric]

Slightly off topic but when I'm driving in train simulator and totally screw up a stop in my head I pretend the train has giant L plates in every coach and the passengers forgive me. So I'm happy to hear something like this actually exists on one form of rail transport.

 

[507 001]

When I did my tram driver training in Blackpool, I had to hold a valid, clean drivers licence (not necessarily Cat B at first but it gets sent off to the DVLA whilst in training) and the tram was not allowed out of the depot without 'L plates' and 'driver training' on the destination display.

I think this was just company policy and nothing more, but not 100% sure

Definitely company policy. My license has never been back to the DVLA.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not sure it has been mentioned whether a full car driving licence (i.e. not provisional) is required. Slight tangent, but when I was young admin trainee with London Transport and went to their Chiswick Works' bus skid patch, I could have had a go had I possessed a provisional driving licence, because it is of course on private property. One of my big regrets missing that opportunity.

 

[Taunton]

I'm not sure it has been mentioned whether a full car driving licence (i.e. not provisional) is required. Slight tangent, but when I was young admin trainee with London Transport and went to their Chiswick Works' bus skid patch, I could have had a go had I possessed a provisional driving licence, because it is of course on private property. One of my big regrets missing that opportunity.

I believe this was an old time misunderstanding, that you could do without a driving licence if not on public roads. It was not actually restricted to those, you did need it anywhere in the country (though it was not particularly enforced). It was like a TV licence - be driving, need a licence. The insurers, if you were on private property, would certainly say their insurance was invalid if you did not have a licence, wherever an accident happened.

In the case of your Chiswick skid patch, which I believe was among all the cars in the car park, was you would need at least a provisional (which I hope they actually required to be shown), and be under the instruction of a full licence holder, the inspector telling what to do, licence held on file. Then it was all covered.