Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[Sonik]

Why would a car return power to the grid? It would only have to be re-charged again to go anywhere.

To balance supply and demand on the grid.

The evening demand peak is approximately between 4pm and 7pm when most people get home and often don't go out again. Many won't need their car again until the morning, leaving plenty time to recharge overnight, when overall demand on the grid is lower.

Car owners would be rewarded with cheaper or free electricity in return for doing this, which no doubt many would take advantage of if the car is sitting on the drive doing nothing.

There are already trials of this technology on some commercial EV fleets that sit in a depot overnight.

 

[SargeNpton]

To balance supply and demand on the grid.

The evening demand peak is approximately between 4pm and 7pm when most people get home and often don't go out again. Many won't need their car again until the morning, leaving plenty time to recharge overnight, when overall demand on the grid is lower.

Car owners would be rewarded with cheaper or free electricity in return for doing this, which no doubt many would take advantage of if the car is sitting on the drive doing nothing.

And then what happens if you have a unexpected and urgent need to make a fairly long-distance journey when you car has been discharging its battery for a couple of hours?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then what happens if you have a unexpected and urgent need to make a fairly long-distance journey when you car has been discharging its battery for a couple of hours?

How often does that happen? I am not aware that it has ever happened to me. Realistically the most it is ever likely to happen in my lifetime is twice, and that assumes both my parents get ill and pass away in a very short period, e.g. a fatal stroke rather than a longer illness, so it may never happen at all, ever. This being the case, if I have to blow £500 on a long haul 3am taxi twice in my whole lifetime (and it is a maximum of twice, effectively), who cares? Assuming I live 80 years, that's threepence per day. And the vast majority of people don't live 200 miles away from their parents!

And if you're not happy with being paid to do this, just decline to do it. You probably don't want to do it if on call for work, for instance. You are being offered an option to be paid to use your car in this way. You can simply elect not to receive that money and not to do it.

Some of the objections in this thread really are beyond bizarre to the point of wilful and conspiratorial.

 

[SargeNpton]

And then what happens if you have a unexpected and urgent need to make a fairly long-distance journey when you car has been discharging its battery for a couple of hours?

How often does that happen? I am not aware that it has ever happened to me. Realistically the most it is ever likely to happen in my lifetime is twice, and that assumes both my parents get ill and pass away in a very short period, e.g. a fatal stroke rather than a longer illness, so it may never happen at all, ever. This being the case, if I have to blow £500 on a long haul 3am taxi twice in my whole lifetime (and it is a maximum of twice, effectively), who cares? Assuming I live 80 years, that's threepence per day. And the vast majority of people don't live 200 miles away from their parents!

And if you're not happy with being paid to do this, just decline to do it. You probably don't want to do it if on call for work, for instance. You are being offered an option to be paid to use your car in this way. You can simply elect not to receive that money and not to do it.

Some of the objections in this thread really are beyond bizarre to the point of wilful and conspiratorial.

The whole point of having personal transport is that it's there for you to use as and when you need it. Most of the time you can plan your journeys, but there are occasions when you do need to go straight away without having to worry about whether you have enough power to get there.

One of the main arguments in this thread has been about whether the range provided by current electric car technology can adequately replace that provided by petrol/diesel vehicles - with the counter argument being that if people plan their recharging then the answer is "yes". Using your car's battery to feed back into the grid and so reducing its readily available range seems to defeat the purposes of that planned recharging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main arguments in this thread has been about whether the range provided by current electric car technology can adequately replace that provided by petrol/diesel vehicles - with the counter argument being that if people plan their recharging then the answer is "yes". Using your car's battery to feed back into the grid and so reducing its readily available range seems to defeat the purposes of that planned recharging.

Then choose not to do it!

Others may choose to do it in return for the money they would be paid for doing it.

I simply don't get your objection to an optional feature you don't have to use.

 

[windingroad]

One of the main arguments in this thread has been about whether the range provided by current electric car technology can adequately replace that provided by petrol/diesel vehicles - with the counter argument being that if people plan their recharging then the answer is "yes".

Personally, even if range is an issue (and that isn't an inevitability by any means) I see that as no bad thing.

For very long journeys we should be encouraging the use of public transport like the railways where possible. That won't work for everyone in all cases, but that's where you've answered your own question: just plan properly. If you're going on such a long trip that range is an issue, that's very rarely going to be a spontaneous thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, even if range is an issue (and that isn't an inevitability by any means) I see that as no bad thing.

For very long journeys we should be encouraging the use of public transport like the railways where possible. That won't work for everyone in all cases, but that's where you've answered your own question: just plan properly. If you're going on such a long trip that range is an issue, that's very rarely going to be a spontaneous thing.

And if you knew a family member was in poor health, you'd be more fastidious about ensuring your car was kept charged, and wouldn't opt into the battery "sharing" thing.

 

[HuggyB87]

Personally, even if range is an issue (and that isn't an inevitability by any means) I see that as no bad thing.

For very long journeys we should be encouraging the use of public transport like the railways where possible. That won't work for everyone in all cases, but that's where you've answered your own question: just plan properly. If you're going on such a long trip that range is an issue, that's very rarely going to be a spontaneous thing.

So you're expecting me, part of a family of 12, when we go on a "staycation" in the Lake District for a week, to utilise public transport? It's never going to happen.

Why would I want to drag my suitcase, along with others and theirs, across a public transport network, and get there whenever I get there (if at all), when I can easily put them in my boot/roof box, travel at a time that conveniences me, via any route of my choosing.

People (that can afford them) won't give vehicles up for two simple things: convenience and spontaneity.

The statement that you make should only apply to those that commute to work, however, services are just not reliable and accessible enough - especially in the face of WFH/remote meetings

 

[windingroad]

And if you knew a family member was in poor health, you'd be more fastidious about ensuring your car was kept charged, and wouldn't opt into the battery "sharing" thing.

Exactly this. If this is really such a big concern, just adapt your routine to include regular charging. It's really not much more onerous than having to remember to fill up with petrol, and I don't see anyone wringing their hands about that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

So you're expecting me, part of a family of 12, when we go on a "staycation" in the Lake District for a week, to utilise public transport? It's never going to happen.

I very deliberately said "where possible" and that it "won't work for everyone in all cases". I didn't say you would be forced onto trains at the barrel of a gun!

 

[Ken H]

Exactly this. If this is really such a big concern, just adapt your routine to include regular charging. It's really not much more onerous than having to remember to fill up with petrol, and I don't see anyone wringing their hands about that.

when I was looking after elderly parents, I kept my car full. I was getting Dad from dialysis as well, so he was at home an hour earlier than waiting for the transport to give him a better life in his closing years.
And having kids often means you become 'dads taxi'. You dont want them hanging around away from home - you just go and get them.
And I have done a few runs to A+E in the last few years. One was when I had a burst appendix and no ambulance was available (They said it would be 4 hours - it was a Friday night) so Mrs Ken drove me to A+E at 2am. I was having emergency surgery 5 hours later. A flat battery would have been the difference between life and possible death. We are 22 miles from A+E.

 

[Ken H]

Exactly this. If this is really such a big concern, just adapt your routine to include regular charging. It's really not much more onerous than having to remember to fill up with petrol, and I don't see anyone wringing their hands about that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==


...

Most people keep a fair bit of fuel in their tanks. they dont run around with 100 miles worth. more like 200 miles worth. So when they need the car its ready to go.

 

[johncrossley]

And having kids often means you become 'dads taxi'.

I thought that was a cliché, trying to exaggerate how little freedom kids have these days.

 

[jon0844]

I thought that was a cliché, trying to exaggerate how little freedom kids have these days.

I am sure if someone asks mum or dad for a lift, it isn't going to be a 200 mile round trip. Far more likely to be a few miles at most.

 

[windingroad]

I'm not trying to be deliberately unsympathetic, but it baffles me that so many in this thread are desperate to prove (by imagining as many ultra-specific edge cases as they possibly can) that electric cars will lead to the decline of civilisation as we know it.

It really isn't difficult just to keep the car moderately charged, just as you'd keep a non-electric car fueled with a decent amount of petrol. If I needed to urgently visit a hospital 4000 miles away and the tank was empty because I'd forgotten to fill it up, I wouldn't be able to drive. To which you will say "well don't forget to fill it up then", to which I say "exactly, so you can just remember to charge the bloody electric car".

 

[The Ham]

Exactly this. If this is really such a big concern, just adapt your routine to include regular charging. It's really not much more onerous than having to remember to fill up with petrol, and I don't see anyone wringing their hands about that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

Indeed.

I very deliberately said "where possible" and that it "won't work for everyone in all cases". I didn't say you would be forced onto trains at the barrel of a gun!

Likewise when I say more people should walk and cycle more; there's going to be those who can't, where the trip is too far, where they need to carry something large, etc.

when I was looking after elderly parents, I kept my car full. I was getting Dad from dialysis as well, so he was at home an hour earlier than waiting for the transport to give him a better life in his closing years.
And having kids often means you become 'dads taxi'. You dont want them hanging around away from home - you just go and get them.
And I have done a few runs to A+E in the last few years. One was when I had a burst appendix and no ambulance was available (They said it would be 4 hours - it was a Friday night) so Mrs Ken drove me to A+E at 2am. I was having emergency surgery 5 hours later. A flat battery would have been the difference between life and possible death. We are 22 miles from A+E.

Chances are you could opt to set a minimum battery level, chances are most people would set it at (say) 60 miles (2 days average use), that would be enough for a round trip to A&E.

 

[NoRoute]

Isn't there a plan (or several) to allow some electric cars to return the power to the place it is plugged in? I have read about a plan to allow and support that but it seems to me that such a car and facility would be incredibly complex. Does anyone know if it works on any current EV and what triggers the power supply from the car?

There are innovation trials underway, the vehicle to grid charging units use the EV's DC charging port to access power from the battery, convert it to AC and feed it into the house or building, to power the building and/or export to the grid. I understand the car is no more complicated though they do need the software to support this and currently this is limited to EVs with the older ChAdemo interface, but the charging unit is significantly more complex and expensive than simple AC charging unit.

These vehicle to grid units are barely out of the prototype stage and are being used in government funded R&D trials, so controls are via software or apps from the companies running the trials. These are not yet mainstream products being offered to regular EV drivers, they are still very expensive which will likely limit the number of people investing in them in coming years, until costs fall.

Personally I expect the extra cost will deter most people, but they might benefit some, like those at home most of the day, charging up the car from solar, then using it to power the home in the evening and overnight as an alternative to a home battery system.

 

[Ken H]

I am sure if someone asks mum or dad for a lift, it isn't going to be a 200 mile round trip. Far more likely to be a few miles at most.

In the country it can be well over 10 miles each way. Our local college school has a huge catchment area. Much of it provided with poor unlit roads.

 

[Ken H]

Indeed.



Likewise when I say more people should walk and cycle more; there's going to be those who can't, where the trip is too far, where they need to carry something large, etc.



Chances are you could opt to set a minimum battery level, chances are most people would set it at (say) 60 miles (2 days average use), that would be enough for a round trip to A&E.

I was away the say before. I became ill in a hotel near Leicester. I thought a tummy upset so drove home. Only 5 hrs later did the extent of my illness become apparent. Even the GP didnt disgnose appendicitis. 30% of appendicitis are asymptiomatic.how on earth do you plan for an event like that?

 

[HuggyB87]

There's a big difference between charging and fueling... pump fueling takes 2/3 minutes for a full tank less so if you're putting less in.

To charge an EV battery to 100% (if you're fortunate enough to own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV with a 43-50KW rapid charger) - 40 minutes or using a rapid charger, providing between 60-200 (the equivalent of £20-£40 of fuel) miles of range in 20-30 mins.

Until EVs solve the issues of range and charging times, along with a grid that can cope with the surge in demand, I think we are living in what programmers would call the alpha stage.

 

[AM9]

Until EVs solve the issues of range and charging times, along with a grid that can cope with the surge in demand, I think we are living in what programmers would call the alpha stage.

The "grid" as in 'National grid' can cope with likely demand from EVs & according to those whose heads would roll if it didn't.
Area distribution is handled by DNOs who are already involved in continuous network modifications to sustain supplies to all users where the increasing demand from EVs is but one of many.
At the lowest level, domestic (230v) supplies are subject to continual power and phase balancing activity, underpinned by control of maximum demand (normally 23kVA) and maximum export power levels (normally 3.68kVA) without specific authority. Power transfer above those levels require express permission from the DNO.
So the impact of EVs on the electricity distribution networks are not the big bogey men that some detractors here seem to wish them to be.

 

[trebor79]

There's a big difference between charging and fueling... pump fueling takes 2/3 minutes for a full tank less so if you're putting less in.

To charge an EV battery to 100% (if you're fortunate enough to own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV with a 43-50KW rapid charger) - 40 minutes or using a rapid charger, providing between 60-200 (the equivalent of £20-£40 of fuel) miles of range in 20-30 mins.

Until EVs solve the issues of range and charging times, along with a grid that can cope with the surge in demand, I think we are living in what programmers would call the alpha stage.

You're out of date.
Kia EV6 and Hyundair Ioniq 5 can charge at over 250kW. 10% to 80% (about 230 miles range) takes just 18 minutes. 10% to 60% (about 180 miles) less than 10 minutes. Just about enough time to go for a leak, buy a coffee and catch up on emails or railforums .
Some cars even faster than that.

Plus pumping petrol might take 3 minutes, but it quite often takes longer than that to pay, especially at a BP where they staff seem to be spending more time making coffees than taking payments. With EV charging you activate the charger, plug in, unplug and drive away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure if someone asks mum or dad for a lift, it isn't going to be a 200 mile round trip. Far more likely to be a few miles at most.

And the answer can as well be "no, I have had a drink" as "no, the car isn't charged". A child can't have everything they want.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

There's a big difference between charging and fueling... pump fueling takes 2/3 minutes for a full tank less so if you're putting less in.

To charge an EV battery to 100% (if you're fortunate enough to own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV with a 43-50KW rapid charger) - 40 minutes or using a rapid charger, providing between 60-200 (the equivalent of £20-£40 of fuel) miles of range in 20-30 mins.

Until EVs solve the issues of range and charging times, along with a grid that can cope with the surge in demand, I think we are living in what programmers would call the alpha stage.

The key difference is that if you are pumping petrol you aren't going to the loo, eating your lunch, shopping, asleep or whatever. Charging is an unattended activity.

 

[HuggyB87]

The "grid" as in 'National grid' can cope with likely demand from EVs & according to those whose heads would roll if it didn't.
Area distribution is handled by DNOs who are already involved in continuous network modifications to sustain supplies to all users where the increasing demand from EVs is but one of many.
At the lowest level, domestic (230v) supplies are subject to continual power and phase balancing activity, underpinned by control of maximum demand (normally 23kVA) and maximum export power levels (normally 3.68kVA) without specific authority. Power transfer above those levels require express permission from the DNO.
So the impact of EVs on the electricity distribution networks are not the big bogey men that some detractors here seem to wish them to be.

You're out of date.
Kia EV6 and Hyundair Ioniq 5 can charge at over 250kW. 10% to 80% (about 230 miles range) takes just 18 minutes. 10% to 60% (about 180 miles) less than 10 minutes. Just about enough time to go for a leak, buy a coffee and catch up on emails or railforums .
Some cars even faster than that.

Plus pumping petrol might take 3 minutes, but it quite often takes longer than that to pay, especially at a BP where they staff seem to be spending more time making coffees than taking payments. With EV charging you activate the charger, plug in, unplug and drive away.

On consideration of both above posts, I agree, it does appear that I am out of date.

I don't have an EV, I wouldn't say no to an EV, but 1) I live in a busy street of terraced houses, there is only one lamppost and no guarantee of parking next to it to charge, so would be limited to being forced to go to my local Tesco to charge whilst I shop, 2) my lifestyle is too busy and I complete too many miles to be planning on charge points - my journeys vary from many small ones to some very long ones and I don't have the time/patience to be planning charge stops en route.

It has been said in this thread already, EVs are not for everyone, but hopefully within this decade we can have electric cars that can pull the mileage of a full tank of fuel and charging is more readily available and accessible with an option to retrofit for a multitude of neighbourhood types.

Thanks for the enlightenment

 

[Bald Rick]

Plus pumping petrol might take 3 minutes, but it quite often takes longer than that to pay, especially at a BP where they staff seem to be spending more time making coffees than taking payments. With EV charging you activate the charger, plug in, unplug and drive away.

absolutely.

plus, say, you have a longish journey coming up and notice the day before that you are short of fuel, You* may want to have a full tank before departure. That means specifically driving* to the filling station, filling up, paying, then driving back home. If you dont have a filling station immediately handy, that’s easily a 15 min round trip (as it is for me). Yes, you could fill up on the way, but for many people that means quite a detour.

if you find your EV short of juice the day before departure, and assuming yoin can charge at home (accepting that not everyone can), you, err, plug it in. Takes 30 seconds.


*“You” in this case is Mrs BR, who insists on having a full tank before departure, rather than risking the filling station en route being closed / out of fuel / too expensive / otherwise unavailable. To be fair my parents and hers are the same.

 

[The Ham]

I was away the say before. I became ill in a hotel near Leicester. I thought a tummy upset so drove home. Only 5 hrs later did the extent of my illness become apparent. Even the GP didnt disgnose appendicitis. 30% of appendicitis are asymptiomatic.how on earth do you plan for an event like that?

It is likely that any such car to grid system would have a minimum range, either fixed for everyone or optional, as such it's unlikely that you'd end up with less than (say) a 60 mile range.

As almost no one would want to opt in to such a scheme if there was a risk of being left low on charge (either through power cuts, emergency trips, etc.).

As has been highlighted before any such scheme would be optional and so it may well be that in a household with 2 cars one is opted in and the other isn't, or if the charge limit is set too low for your comfort then you just don't opt in.

People like my parents, who rarely leave home early morning due to being retired, don't drive a lot and have solar panels, would do fairly well out of such a scheme (i.e. charge for free and sell at peak prices).

Whilst others, like someone I used to work with; who leave early morning as they drive 30+ miles to get to work probably wouldn't think it was for them.

There's a big difference between charging and fueling... pump fueling takes 2/3 minutes for a full tank less so if you're putting less in.

To charge an EV battery to 100% (if you're fortunate enough to own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV with a 43-50KW rapid charger) - 40 minutes or using a rapid charger, providing between 60-200 (the equivalent of £20-£40 of fuel) miles of range in 20-30 mins.

Until EVs solve the issues of range and charging times, along with a grid that can cope with the surge in demand, I think we are living in what programmers would call the alpha stage.

Even at the timeframe started chances are thing would actually be a little closer in time for most times that you needed to refuel your car.

If you've driven 150+ miles (over 2:30 driving time, more likely around 3 hours) chances are you'll want to get something from the shop and there's a fair chance that a loo break is required.

As such that 2-3 minutes soon becomes 5 to 10 minutes (especially if you stop at a larger services and don't wish to use the petrol station facilities)

Likewise you may require less than a full charge and so you're charging time may be reduced to 15 to 20 minutes.

As such, on the few journeys a year where this would be an issue for the vast majority of people, the time lost may be 10 to 15 minutes. However the rest of the year their car has a range of at least 60 miles (assuming they've not charged for a few days) with very little lost time.

For instance not ever needing to stop for fuel on the way to or from work, where that extra 3 minutes to refuel could mean that the roads are busier and you are late.

 

[jon0844]

In the country it can be well over 10 miles each way. Our local college school has a huge catchment area. Much of it provided with poor unlit roads.

Sure, so that's about 20 miles then. Let's say 30 to be fair.

I doubt anyone will let a car get down to that low a range. I would have refilled my ICE car long before I got that low, so why any different for an EV?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

I don't have an EV, I wouldn't say no to an EV, but 1) I live in a busy street of terraced houses, there is only one lamppost and no guarantee of parking next to it to charge, so would be limited to being forced to go to my local Tesco to charge whilst I shop, 2) my lifestyle is too busy and I complete too many miles to be planning on charge points - my journeys vary from many small ones to some very long ones and I don't have the time/patience to be planning charge stops en route.

It has been said in this thread already, EVs are not for everyone, but hopefully within this decade we can have electric cars that can pull the mileage of a full tank of fuel and charging is more readily available and accessible with an option to retrofit for a multitude of neighbourhood types.

Thanks for the enlightenment

There are clearly examples where an EV isn't suitable yet, but the important thing is the word 'yet'. There are people who seem to think EVs are almost evil, and find any excuse to attack them. The fact is, if an EV isn't yet suitable because of cost or charging issues locally/home, then it's perhaps a good idea to ask your local council about improving on-street charging, looking into how you might be able to charge from home (there are some forward thinking councils allowing ducts to be cut on pavements to allow homeowners to charge on the road without having a cable as a trip hazard).

For communal parking areas, some service management companies are investing in (paid for in service charges) charging facilities usable by residents and visitors (residents log in to charge, visitors pay as they go). Landlords might also be willing to offer facilities to tenants, on the basis that in time a lack of charging might put people off renting a property in the future - just as people now ask about broadband speeds when renting/buying.

Also ask the car makers why they're so insistent on producing SUVs and Crossover vehicles with so many fancy toys that not everyone wants or needs. If you're getting a car to take kids to school, go shopping or other journeys of 10 miles or less - you don't necessarily need adaptive cruise control, lane assist, heated/ventilated seats and all the other features. You'll probably be fine with a basic screen that has Android Auto/Apple CarPlay, air con and some key safety features.

ICE vehicles aren't going away. If someone owns a classic car, or a performance car, they wish to keep then that's fine. Sure, they'll be expensive to run - but nobody is taking them away from you. For the average motorist that just wants a box to get from A to B, EVs have so many benefits and will become the norm - probably long before petrol and diesel cars are no longer widely sold.

 

[windingroad]

On consideration of both above posts, I agree, it does appear that I am out of date.

A member of this forum adapted their view when presented with evidence? I may faint!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are clearly examples where an EV isn't suitable yet, but the important thing is the word 'yet'. There are people who seem to think EVs are almost evil, and find any excuse to attack them. The fact is, if an EV isn't yet suitable because of cost or charging issues locally/home, then it's perhaps a good idea to ask your local council about improving on-street charging, looking into how you might be able to charge from home (there are some forward thinking councils allowing ducts to be cut on pavements to allow homeowners to charge on the road without having a cable as a trip hazard).

Yep, this. Plus, if an EV isn't suitable for you as an individual, it doesn't meant the concept is flawed for everyone. Some people would be better off with a PHEV (but keep it charged if you can, as battery is better in cities), and some can only afford an older, used ICE car, in which case petrol is probably a better choice but keeping using an existing vehicle rather than building a new one does have environmental benefits too.

 

[jon0844]

Also, I can't refuel my petrol car at home, so if you got an EV that has rapid charging (like those from Kia/Hyundai) then it still isn't a ridiculous idea to own one and charge it before you get home or before a long journey - like an ICE vehicle. Yes, it would require a bit more planning - but if it saved you loads of money...

One more thing about using a car to sell back power to the grid; even if someone isn't so keen on that idea, what about having your car able to power your home in the event of a power cut? That's a very real benefit that I am sure a lot of people have never thought of because a home battery can be quite expensive - but if you buy an EV, you've bought yourself a home battery on wheels!

 

[Bletchleyite]

One more thing about using a car to sell back power to the grid; even if someone isn't so keen on that idea, what about having your car able to power your home in the event of a power cut? That's a very real benefit that I am sure a lot of people have never thought of because a home battery can be quite expensive - but if you buy an EV, you've bought yourself a home battery on wheels!

How "real" a benefit that is depends very much on how often you experience power cuts at home. In most UK urban areas that's "pretty much never", whereas in rural areas with primarily above-ground local distribution it's "quite often".

In my current house, which I've lived in for 11 years now, I've never experienced one at all, though I have noticed the cooker clock having reset itself once so there was probably a short one overnight.

A power cut that occurs less than every 11 years is enough to go into the "no point bothering to mitigate" bucket, particularly given that, unless the power cut covers a wide enough area to knock mobile coverage out*, I can still work for about 8 hours on my laptop battery using my mobile phone for Internet connectivity.

* This is very, very, very rare. It did happen during the Lancaster floods some years ago.