Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[Bletchleyite]

do not buy a ZEV outright. only consider a PCP for a ZEV ,their depreciation is horrendous, far more than depreciation of an IC car

Do not buy a new car at all, whether petrol, hybrid or ZEV. Buy about 3 years old (ideally about 2.5 years to have some residual warranty so any issues can be sorted out that remain, unless it's a Kia which come with 7 years as standard, but most manufacturers are 3 years). Battery warranties are much longer, I seem to recall 8 years is standard, so that gives you another 5 years of worry-free (e-)motoring.

Obviously some people choose to buy new and take depreciation hits, and we need that for a healthy used market, but that's not my problem

 

[cactustwirly]

An EV doesn't need to warm up, so efficiency for short drives is likely better than a petrol car - and especially a diesel car - doing a short run (school, shops etc).

Even cold weather impacts an ICE vehicle too, before anyone points out the loss of range with a cold battery.

If you are always doing 70mph on motorways then ICE cars may have the edge, but then you're likely doing lots of miles and suddenly the cost of fuel is beginning to make a real impact on your spending.

I am not sure a simple online tool can really test all this out without the characteristics of every single vehicle (from engine or motor rating, to battery size, fuel tank etc) are entered into a huge database and you then factor in things like weather, average trip distance and loads of parameters.

If someone developed something like that, I think it would be genuinely useful but also a service I'd expect to be paying for because it isn't a 10 minute job.

What is the real world efficiency for a motorway drive?

I heard EVs are the opposite of an ICE and are less efficient on motorways, plus lose a lot when it's windy etc

The stats are all done in ideal conditions

Do not buy a new car at all, whether petrol, hybrid or ZEV. Buy about 3 years old (ideally about 2.5 years to have some residual warranty so any issues can be sorted out that remain, unless it's a Kia which come with 7 years as standard, but most manufacturers are 3 years). Battery warranties are much longer, I seem to recall 8 years is standard, so that gives you another 5 years of worry-free (e-)motoring.

Obviously some people choose to buy new and take depreciation hits, and we need that for a healthy used market, but that's not my problem

The advantage of buying new is you can spec it how you want.

It can be frustrating looking through loads of Auto Trader ads and 99% will be basic spec with no options ticked

 

[trebor79]

What is the real world efficiency for a motorway drive?

I heard EVs are the opposite of an ICE and are less efficient on motorways, plus lose a lot when it's windy etc

The stats are all done in ideal conditions


The advantage of buying new is you can spec it how you want.

It can be frustrating looking through loads of Auto Trader ads and 99% will be basic spec with no options ticked

Yes driving fast uses more energy. Cruise control set to 70 and my Tesla will return 4 miles/kWh in winter (3.5 if it's really cold) and nearly 5 in summer.
If I set it to 75 (on a private test track of course) then that uses about 10% to 15% more energy.
Rain makes a big difference too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The advantage of buying new is you can spec it how you want.

True, though you pay in the thousands for stuff that's to me at least relatively minor, and those options usually have very little effect on used value. Plus some of them can be added as an aftermarket thing.

Of course if you really value that you can pay twenty grand or more for the same car as I do when it is a couple of years old, but to be honest I struggle to see that as anything other than an utter waste of money carried out only by people who literally have money to burn. And further to that, if you PCP it you own nothing in the end unless you buy it - admittedly at a guaranteed price, but really PCP is just a form of lease. Whereas I have a car with a decent residual value at the end to trade in against my next, and if money is tight when the loan is paid off I can just decide to keep it a year or two longer without anything more to pay unless it's getting unreliable, which these days you have to be unlucky for that to happen under 5-6 years old.

It can be frustrating looking through loads of Auto Trader ads and 99% will be basic spec with no options ticked

TBH I prefer lower trims in most cases. I do miss adaptive cruise control, but aside from that most of the stuff that used to be optional on lower trims like decent audio, electric windows, standard cruise control, limiter and aircon are standard even on base models these days unless you're buying in the "small runaround" segment. Even things like reversing cameras are rapidly becoming bog-standard. And I dislike stuff like everything on a big touchscreen and sticky leather seats that look horribly worn after a few years anyway (nothing worse looking to me in a car interior than cracked leather). But each to their own on that one I suppose.

 

[cactustwirly]

True, though you pay in the thousands for stuff that's to me at least relatively minor, and those options usually have very little effect on used value. Plus some of them can be added as an aftermarket thing.

Of course if you really value that you can pay twenty grand or more for the same car as I do when it is a couple of years old, but to be honest I struggle to see that as anything other than an utter waste of money carried out only by people who literally have money to burn. And further to that, if you PCP it you own nothing in the end unless you buy it - admittedly at a guaranteed price, but really PCP is just a form of lease. Whereas I have a car with a decent residual value at the end to trade in against my next, and if money is tight when the loan is paid off I can just decide to keep it a year or two longer without anything more to pay unless it's getting unreliable, which these days you have to be unlucky for that to happen under 5-6 years old.



TBH I prefer lower trims in most cases. I do miss adaptive cruise control, but aside from that most of the stuff that used to be optional on lower trims like decent audio, electric windows, standard cruise control, limiter and aircon are standard even on base models these days unless you're buying in the "small runaround" segment. Even things like reversing cameras are rapidly becoming bog-standard. And I dislike stuff like everything on a big touchscreen and sticky leather seats that look horribly worn after a few years anyway (nothing worse looking to me in a car interior than cracked leather). But each to their own on that one I suppose.

My car is a lower trim level, and I ripped out the seats to add leather, way more comfortable and wear better. The fabric was stained and was uncomfortable.
Decent weather doesn't wear and look cracked unless it's fake or not looked after at all. I've seen cars with 120k miles and the leather still looks nice

You miss stuff like bending lights, xenons, heated seats, auto wipers and cruise control which can't be easily retrofitted

My car had rare options like sunroof, upgraded sound system, electric seats and adaptive cruise control so that's why I got it.
99% were higher trim levels but missing basic stuff like parking sensors and cruise control, where it was originally fleet or PCP and they didn't tick any options except the colour.

Looking to upgrade to another car, again it's very difficult to find, in this case a BMW with the Professional Nav. Most come with the basic system of a small screen and a massive bezel and it looks awful

 

[jon0844]

When looking on lease loco it seems many cars with higher trims can often be cheaper than the base models, and as some car makers keep options to a minimum or none at all, you can find the top spec model being the cheapest.

It seems bizarre but lease companies seem to like going for the top model for resale value later on, but where there are lots of options you won't get those at all. So stick to car makers that keep things simple and not those with billions of add on extras.

 

[E27007]

When looking on lease loco it seems many cars with higher trims can often be cheaper than the base models, and as some car makers keep options to a minimum or none at all, you can find the top spec model being the cheapest.

It seems bizarre but lease companies seem to like going for the top model for resale value later on, but where there are lots of options you won't get those at all. So stick to car makers that keep things simple and not those with billions of add on extras.

The difference between the invoice price of a car purchased by you and I, vs the invoice price per car the fleets and businesses pay for their cars are poles apart. My former employer leased a quantity of Audi A3 plug-in hybrids, the lucky employees received copies of the invoice showing original purchase price for benefit-in-kind tax for their HMRI returns, the difference was eye-watering.

 

[jon0844]

The difference between the invoice price of a car purchased by you and I, vs the invoice price per car the fleets and businesses pay for their cars are poles apart. My former employer leased a quantity of Audi A3 plug-in hybrids, the lucky employees received copies of the invoice showing original purchase price for benefit-in-kind tax for their HMRI returns, the difference was eye-watering.

For sure, and I think it's great that the lease companies usually opt for a high-spec model. But, they aren't interested in add-ons, so the likes of BMW and Mercedes that offer loads of optional extras will likely end up without them (unless they opt to make a special edition from time to time).

On the other hand, cars from some car makers where they produce just one, two or three trim levels and the top one has every option as standard represents excellent value.

When it comes to leasing, it's also wise to shop the deal, not the car. You need to be flexible to save the most money!

 

[E27007]

Though apparently some are claiming they’re not making profits: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/...ce-firms-hundreds-millions-and-theyd-bail-out

My eyes are filling with tears of sadness and sorrow, those poor deserving car-leasing companies owned by Merchant Banks , our PCP assumptions are wrong, we are losing lots of money, and please may we have a handout?
The finance companies are on the legal hook for short comings in truth-in-lending, non-disclosures of fees and commissions in the finance contracts
Poor business decisions, not my problem.
Capitalist when in profit, Socialist when not!

 

[jon0844]

Same nonsense in the energy market with companies mismanaging their businesses to buy customers, and it all coming tumbling down when the market moves in a way they didn't foresee. In steps the taxpayer to save the day (in the form of higher standing charges).

 

[E27007]

ZEV manufacturers, warranty claims, the best to the worst.

The link is to Motortrader.com and a table of manufacturers and warranty claim rate of key manufacturers.

ZEV warranty claims, % by manufacturer

Excluding VW (45% probably an anomaly) gives a 1 to 9 ratio between the lowest and highest, from the table Kia, Hyundai and Toyota are the leaders in warranty claim-free ZEVs, Mercedes, Jaguar , Land Rover the opposite

 

[The Ham]

ZEV manufacturers, warranty claims, the best to the worst.

The link is to Motortrader.com and a table of manufacturers and warranty claim rate of key manufacturers.

ZEV warranty claims, % by manufacturer

Excluding VW (45% probably an anomaly) gives a 1 to 9 ratio between the lowest and highest, from the table Kia, Hyundai and Toyota are the leaders in warranty claim-free ZEVs, Mercedes, Jaguar , Land Rover the opposite

Given that the list is otherwise in order and the table reads as:

Tesla 15.18%
Volkswagen 45.38%
Porsche 17.39%

I wouldn't be surprised if that was a typo and it should read as 15.38%, at worst it's going to be 17.38%.

Having said that, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have a spreadsheet creating the table so you could easily run the same news story next year with updated data.

 

[E27007]

Do not buy a new car at all, whether petrol, hybrid or ZEV. Buy about 3 years old (ideally about 2.5 years to have some residual warranty so any issues can be sorted out that remain, unless it's a Kia which come with 7 years as standard, but most manufacturers are 3 years). Battery warranties are much longer, I seem to recall 8 years is standard, so that gives you another 5 years of worry-free (e-)motoring.

Obviously some people choose to buy new and take depreciation hits, and we need that for a healthy used market, but that's not my problem

Reading around the issue of finance companies and their PCP contracts, unexpected high-depreciation of a ZEV by the end of the PCP contract, reports are the shortfall is around £7000 per ZEV and low buyer demand, they take root on the sales forecourt.
if I were in the situation of an end of PCP contract and intending to buy the vehicle, I would bid £10,000 below MGFV (minimum guaranteed future value) and see how the finance company react

 

[telstarbox]

Some anecdata from my centrist commuter belt town where I've been canvassing for the local election this week.
On the terraced streets like mine you see the odd EV but I've just done a road of villas with driveways and there are *loads* of Teslas and others. If kerbside charging can be sorted for us humble rolk they should really take off.

 

[BingMan]

Some anecdata from my centrist commuter belt town where I've been canvassing for the local election this week.
On the terraced streets like mine you see the odd EV but I've just done a road of villas with driveways and there are *loads* of Teslas and others. If kerbside charging can be sorted for us humble rolk they should really take off.

Perhaps that is because people who live in "villas" are wealthier than those who live on terraced streets; rather than anything to do with charging facilities

 

[Peter Sarf]

Perhaps that is because people who live in "villas" are wealthier than those who live on terraced streets; rather than anything to do with charging facilities

I would agree. I high degree of spare income to buy something fashionable etc etc. I am one of the "other people".

 

[renegademaster]

Perhaps that is because people who live in "villas" are wealthier than those who live on terraced streets; rather than anything to do with charging facilities

The better comparison would be well off areas without off street parking, which London has a lot of.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The better comparison would be well off areas without off street parking, which London has a lot of.

I agree. For five years I lived a few roads from Queens Tennis Club, between Fulham and Hammersmith. Street parking was all permit controlled and the vast majority of the housing was terraced - a combination of individual houses and four-storey former mansion terraces adapted into apartments.

H&F Borough's resident parking permit merely offered means to use an available space within the borough. My housemate, who owned a car, often discovered her car would need to be parked several streets away from our house, due to a lack of availability any closer.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I agree. For five years I lived a few roads from Queens Tennis Club, between Fulham and Hammersmith. Street parking was all permit controlled and the vast majority of the housing was terraced - a combination of individual houses and four-storey former mansion terraces adapted into apartments.

H&F Borough's resident parking permit merely offered means to use an available space within the borough. My housemate, who owned a car, often discovered her car would need to be parked several streets away from our house, due to a lack of availability any closer.

Not how it works now in H&F - resident's parking permits are limited to "the area covered by your home CPZ" (Controlled Parking Zone), which is the standard modus operandi in London boroughs.
www.lbhf.gov.uk/parking/parking-permits/residents-parking-permit

One possible solution is lamppost mounted chargers, which are making an appearance in parts of London.

 

[jon0844]

Not how it works now in H&F - resident's parking permits are limited to "the area covered by your home CPZ" (Controlled Parking Zone), which is the standard modus operandi in London boroughs.
www.lbhf.gov.uk/parking/parking-permits/residents-parking-permit

One possible solution is lamppost mounted chargers, which are making an appearance in parts of London.

There seems to be a fair few north of Oxford Street and up and over towards Warren Street and Tottenham Court Road.

They're simple sockets on lamp posts and appear to be operated by Shell. I don't know the cost but expect they won't be cheap.

 

[Noddy]

There seems to be a fair few north of Oxford Street and up and over towards Warren Street and Tottenham Court Road.

They're simple sockets on lamp posts and appear to be operated by Shell. I don't know the cost but expect they won't be cheap.

In most local authority areas they’re 57p day time (0600-2300), 47p overnight. Also rolled out in Birmingham, Liverpool and a few other places and with the government grants currently available to local authorities I suspect we’ll see them in many other places over the coming years.

Shell Recharge did offer a subscription which gave cheaper charging, but this service specifically excluded the ubitricity lamp post chargers. However, ubitricity is now being rebranded Shell Recharge, so I wonder if we’ll see a subscription service come back.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I thought this topic has been posted before but I cannot find it via keywords search:

Has any UK area adopted EV for its emergency services?

Fire engines typically return to their base after the shout - so, in principle, could be EV with no detrimental effect upon Fire service availability.
Police and Ambulance vehicles often remain away from base for the duration of a shift and need a hard-acceleration power always on demand - so might be beyond current EV offering?

 

[JamesT]

I thought this topic has been posted before but I cannot find it via keywords search:

Has any UK area adopted EV for emergency services?

Fire engines typically return to their base after the shout - so, in principle, could be EV with no detrimental effect upon Fire service availability.
Police and Ambulance vehicles often remain away from base for the duration of a shift and need a hard-acceleration power always on demand - so might be beyond current EV offering?

Fire engines also power their pumps etc. from their engines, so potentially need a larger capacity than an EV can currently supply. A quick search finds some people effectively doing Hybrids, but not pure EV.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Fire engines also power their pumps etc. from their engines, so potentially need a larger capacity than an EV can currently supply. A quick search finds some people effectively doing Hybrids, but not pure EV.

Thanks @JamesT Yes, I saw a hybrid emergency services vehicle recently and it prompted my question about pure EV. Good point re: fire tenders.

 

[renegademaster]

I've seen quite a few electric police cars and the ambulance service cars in London. Do not think i seen any full ambulances or fire trucks electric.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has any UK area adopted EV for its emergency services?

Yes, I have posted earlier in the thread (many pages ago, so not easily findable) that I have seen EV police cars, ambulances and fire engines. From memory the Fire Engine was at Hammersmith Fire Station. I was on my way to Craven Cottage when I saw it, so it must have been about two years ago. No idea how many there are in service, I suspect one!

 

[bspahh]

Yes, I have posted earlier in the thread (many pages ago, so not easily findable) that I have seen EV police cars, ambulances and fire engines. From memory the Fire Engine was at Hammersmith Fire Station. I was on my way to Craven Cottage when I saw it, so it must have been about two years ago. No idea how many there are in service, I suspect one!

If you click the Search button in the header, type "ambulance" change to search "This Thread" for posts by "Bald Rick" and click Search


it finds these posts

Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

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www.railforums.co.uk

Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

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[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @bspahh
I was searching using keywords emergency services and emergency vehicles, which probably points to why I didn't find Bald Rick's earlier posts.

 

[Mawkie]

I've seen quite a few electric police cars and the ambulance service cars in London. Do not think i seen any full ambulances or fire trucks electric.

In fact, the LAS has had an electric ambulance for 1 year and Ford have made a video about it (a glorified infomercial).

New film follows London Ambulance Service paramedics as electric ambulance goes the distance - London Ambulance Service NHS Trust

Film-makers followed ambulance crews as they responded to emergencies across London for two busy back-to-back shifts in a fully electric ambulance. London Ambulance Service introduced the pioneering vehicle on its busiest night of the year – New Year’s Eve 2023 into New Year’s Day 2024. To mark...

www.londonambulance.nhs.uk

Film-makers followed ambulance crews as they responded to emergencies across London for two busy back-to-back shifts in a fully electric ambulance.

London Ambulance Service introduced the pioneering vehicle on its busiest night of the year – New Year’s Eve 2023 into New Year’s Day 2024.

To mark the vehicle’s first anniversary, a film crew from the manufacturer Ford joined its crew for a busy day and night shift, for an insight into life on the frontline in the capital.

 

[PeterC]

In fact, the LAS has had an electric ambulance for 1 year and Ford have made a video about it (a glorified infomercial).

New film follows London Ambulance Service paramedics as electric ambulance goes the distance - London Ambulance Service NHS Trust

Film-makers followed ambulance crews as they responded to emergencies across London for two busy back-to-back shifts in a fully electric ambulance. London Ambulance Service introduced the pioneering vehicle on its busiest night of the year – New Year’s Eve 2023 into New Year’s Day 2024. To mark...

www.londonambulance.nhs.uk

A LAS paramedic told my other half that it could only manage half a shift before needing a recharge.