Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[paul1609]

But 200 miles @ 70mph is a three hour journey. Most larger EVs are in the 250 mile range now including the very good value MG4 long range (£28k). At this point you really should be considering a proper break so why not just use it to stop for a coffee and a loo break at a rapid charger where you’ll probably add another 2 hours worth of range. Grab a meal and you’ll probably be adding another 3 hours of range.

The official range for the MG4 is 218 miles or 281 for the extended range model. I dont have any experience of the MG4 but my baseline for 70 mph real range is around 70% of official figures so at 70 your probably looking for a recharge at around 140 miles190 extended range. Your second recharge will be around 240/ 310 miles.
For regular journeys such as a drive to my Brothers house in Cockermouth Cumbria (376 miles) it is doable but its in reality a pain in the arse especially when you start to hit queues for the chargers.
Unless you can afford a premium EV like a Tesla the reality is its no where near as convient as an ICE where my only breaks would be a Costa in a village co-op off the A1 and a short walk somewhere in the Pennines.

 

[Noddy]

The official range for the MG4 is 218 miles or 281 for the extended range model. I dont have any experience of the MG4 but my baseline for 70 mph real range is around 70% of official figures so at 70 your probably looking for a recharge at around 140 miles190 extended range. Your second recharge will be around 240/ 310 miles.
For regular journeys such as a drive to my Brothers house in Cockermouth Cumbria (376 miles) it is doable but its in reality a pain in the arse especially when you start to hit queues for the chargers.
Unless you can afford a premium EV like a Tesla the reality is its no where near as convient as an ICE where my only breaks would be a Costa in a village co-op off the A1 and a short walk somewhere in the Pennines.

Your 70% figure is way off for most recent cars. Obviously every scenario is different (especially if you are doing 80 rather than 70) but testing/independent reviews of the MG4 have shown that you can reliably get a real world figure of 4.2miles per kWh or 250 miles (in the long range model). The extend range model isn’t released in the UK until next year but has an advertised range of 329 so I’d expect it to be in the 280-290 real world range.

 

[trebor79]

70% of WLTP at motorway speeds is about right in my experience. You'd get a bit more if you went from 100% to 0% charge but if course you never do that.
I've only had to queue for a charger once, and that was only for 10 minutes and was because half the chargers at the site were out of service on that day.
Every other time so far I've just driven straight up to a charger and plugged in.

 

[paul1609]

Your 70% figure is way off for most recent cars. Obviously every scenario is different (especially if you are doing 80 rather than 70) but testing/independent reviews of the MG4 have shown that you can reliably get a real world figure of 4.2miles per kWh or 250 miles (in the long range model). The extend range model isn’t released in the UK until next year but has an advertised range of 329 so I’d expect it to be in the 280-290 real world range.

70% of official figures is a good ball park figure in my experience this is normally 70mph cruise control set in the UK.
If you are looking at the long range ev tests on you tube typically they start at London Gateway services on the M1 and they turn off somewhere between Meadowhall (150 miles) and Leeming Bar (190 miles) because they are down to single figures and dont wish to be stranded on the motorway. They then drive round and round a car park or local roads at low speeds for 20miles to find out the actual range figures and what happens when the car stops. Useful as a comparison between makes but how useful the real range is in practical day to day motorway driving I leave to your imagination.

 

[reddragon]

I think you've got two markets for your typical two-car family. One is typically a large cruiser for a longer commute and family holidays, and needs a longer range (maybe not 300+ miles, but certainly an actual 200 at worst). The other is a small runaround, typically an older petrol car. That one could have a range of maybe 50 miles and be fine, and stuff like old Nissan Leafs with degraded batteries are in that market.

If I can drive my EV 625 miles in one day with ease . . . .

 

[Ken H]

How do EVs cope when a relative is in trouble. Emergency in hospital, elderly parents trouble, and you are needed 400 miles away NOW.
I had a burst appendix 5 years ago. Kids were there from many many miles away for me within hours. Before they operated! As much to support my wife as for me.
I have rescued parents in trouble. A+E, electric tripped out, gas boiler needing re-pressurising. Stuff like that.
Thats how life works. Sh!t happens. At the worse possible time. (When you have just got in from a long drive and the battery is flat, for instance)

 

[Domh245]

How do EVs cope when a relative is in trouble. Emergency in hospital, elderly parents trouble, and you are needed 400 miles away NOW.
I had a burst appendix 5 years ago. Kids were there from many many miles away for me within hours. Before they operated! As much to support my wife as for me.
I have rescued parents in trouble. A+E, electric tripped out, gas boiler needing re-pressurising. Stuff like that.
Thats how life works. Sh!t happens. At the worse possible time. (When you have just got in from a long drive and the battery is flat, for instance)

Bluntly, if you are worried about being able to get to relatives in an emergency, you move closer (or move them). 400 miles is just under 6 hours of driving at legal speed limit, which is ill advised to do in one go at the best of times and especially so if you're driving whilst distracted by other events.

 

[miklcct]

Human nature suggests that it is the 'perceived' cost that counts rather than actual facts or logic. Ironically, that is one of the ways motorists have justified using their petrol car instead of public transport for the last few decades. The per mile cost once the 'sunk' costs have been spent. In other words "I've already paid £x000 pounds for my car so I might as well use it". But when it comes to electric cars (versus petrol) the objection now comes from the fixed cost.

The point is valid, especially in the case of EVs where the marginal cost is very low, that if you have already paid £x000 pounds for your electric car you may well use it everywhere you go. However, the decision to buy a car or not / which car to buy is based on the "total cost of ownership" as mentioned above.

And people who cant charge at home.

Is there any improvement for this in recent years? Are we seeing many residential car parks retrofitting an EV charger at every parking space included in the rent?

Where do people normally charge their car if they live in a typical city apartment?

 

[AM9]

Deleted

How do EVs cope when a relative is in trouble. Emergency in hospital, elderly parents trouble, and you are needed 400 miles away NOW.
I had a burst appendix 5 years ago. Kids were there from many many miles away for me within hours. Before they operated! As much to support my wife as for me.
I have rescued parents in trouble. A+E, electric tripped out, gas boiler needing re-pressurising. Stuff like that.
Thats how life works. Sh!t happens. At the worse possible time. (When you have just got in from a long drive and the battery is flat, for instance)

You shouldn't drive a battery to a "flat" state any more than you would drive a petrol/diesel car until the tank is empty. So 400 miles, that's 7 hours away at least, including one 30 minute break for the driver when the car can also receive a recharge. If the car was low, say 20% which is quite normal, the that would get to the nearest fast charger so add another 15 mins to the total. So for a pretty rare occurrence, it's not much different to the time for a petrol car. If it isn't that rare then you would be well into the habit of not having a low charge on the battery when getting home.
This assumes that family EVs will have a real world 200 mile range, that there will be adequate fast chargers on main routes and the driver is responsible and considerate of their own and other road user's safety by not driving for exessive time without breaks.

 

[jon0844]

'We asked 100 people to name a reason for not buying an EV.'

'In case you need to drive 400 miles for a sick relative, but have a flat battery?'

'Is that on the board..?'

X

 

[reddragon]

How do EVs cope when a relative is in trouble. Emergency in hospital, elderly parents trouble, and you are needed 400 miles away NOW.
I had a burst appendix 5 years ago. Kids were there from many many miles away for me within hours. Before they operated! As much to support my wife as for me.
I have rescued parents in trouble. A+E, electric tripped out, gas boiler needing re-pressurising. Stuff like that.
Thats how life works. Sh!t happens. At the worse possible time. (When you have just got in from a long drive and the battery is flat, for instance)

It's never caused me an issue and I've done a 625 mile straight drive in my EV

Bluntly, if you are worried about being able to get to relatives in an emergency, you move closer (or move them). 400 miles is just under 6 hours of driving at legal speed limit, which is ill advised to do in one go at the best of times and especially so if you're driving whilst distracted by other events.

Agree.

I can drive further & longer in my EV than I could in my old ICE car much more safely. You just need the range, charging speed & know where it's best to charge which you would know on a regular run like this.

 

[william.martin]

Here is my opinion:

The pollution created by mining for materials that make electric car batteries is equal to the amount of pollution a petrol/ electric car makes, so why not stick to the old dinosaurs and get to here those V8'S continue to roar.

Hydrogen is unlikely because most manufactures have recently spent millions on kitting there factory's out too deal with electric vehicles, it would be a waste of money to replace it all.
A perfect example is Jaguar land rovers former engine factory in the west midlands, it has been converted to manufacture electric motors, to replace that brand new equipment would be a way of purely eating cash- not something we want to be doing in 2022.

This is only my opinion.

 

[trebor79]

Here is my opinion:

The pollution created by mining for materials that make electric car batteries is equal to the amount of pollution a petrol/ electric car makes, so why not stick to the old dinosaurs and get to here those V8'S continue to roar.

Because your opening statement is incorrect?
Plus the EV is cheaper to run, much nicer to drive, quieter and has lower servicing costs.
I never want to buy another ICE car ever again.

 

[Domh245]

A perfect example is Jaguar land rovers former engine factory in the west midlands, it has been converted to manufacture electric motors, to replace that brand new equipment would be a way of purely eating cash- not something we want to be doing in 2022.

Source please? Having worked there in 2019, the only electric motor line (planned - and always had been planned for that space when they built that second part of the plant though I left before they started to build the actual assembly line) was a short simple thing at the very back of the hall that was putting the inline 6s together (being as electric motors are massively simple to put together when compared to the ICEs).

Most of the equipment can be reused fairly easily - most stations are equipped with glorified screwdrivers, with only a comparative handful of specialised stations for doing specialised tasks (and even then, the equipment tends to be quite meccano-y and could be quite easily disassembled and reassembled to suit). The bulk of the cost comes in employing people to figure out and then implement the changes!

The pollution created by mining for materials that make electric car batteries is equal to the amount of pollution a petrol/ electric car makes, so why not stick to the old dinosaurs and get to here those V8'S continue to roar.

The other key point (which JLR serves as a good example of as well) is that the automobile industry is global, and the global direction is clear - so even if the UK decided to stick with ICEs, it'd just fall (even further) behind other countries in terms of manufacturing! Also most ICEs are inline 4s (or 3s) which sound rubbish and are as good a reason as any to go to EV!

 

[Bald Rick]

Here is my opinion:

The pollution created by mining for materials that make electric car batteries is equal to the amount of pollution a petrol/ electric car makes

Your opinion is wrong.

How much pollution is created by mining for materials that make petrol and diesel, and then refining them, and then transporting them? And the materials that make engines, cooling systems, transmissions, exhaust systems, catalytic converters, etc?

 

[Class 317]

See

Your opinion is wrong.

How much pollution is created by mining for materials that make petrol and diesel, and then refining them, and then transporting them? And the materials that make engines, cooling systems, transmissions, exhaust systems, catalytic converters, etc?

Just the point I was going to make!
The quantity of materials mined for even the biggest EV battery materials versus the quantity for oil mined is so much smaller.

 

[jon0844]

As ever, comparisons of ICE vs EV in terms of carbon emissions is always cherry picked to suit (like rail vs air vs road comparisons).

It's true that most EVs on sale are quite large SUVs, possibly because they are what people are willing to spend money on, and have higher profit margins. As these are big and heavy, there's perhaps less efficiency - but probably these cars will be used for longer journeys and ultimately save massively on emissions in the long run.

In 2023 and 2024 it's widely expected we're going to see smaller EVs entering the market, as well as cheaper cars in general (many having less toys; which suits plenty of people in cities that don't need all creature comforts; air con and Apple CarPlay/Android Auto - job done).

We'll also likely see smaller battery packs but with faster charging, because once people realise range anxiety isn't an issue most of the time they won't need to buy extended long-range models for those one-off events (like the 400 mile emergency visit to help a sick relative or re-pressurise a boiler).

We also still have people that honestly believe a battery pack will die after 2-3 years, rather than more likely 7-10 years (or a million-odd miles) and the batteries can then go on to have a second life in a home battery system or similar, before then being recyclable. And we're slowly improving both the efficiency of batteries and their longevity, as well as using better electronics to get more performance from the battery - so over time EVs will become better, while fossil fuels will only get more expensive.

Even the news today about paying VED on electric cars isn't the big 'well that proves EVs aren't cheaper anymore' smoking gun that some people are hoping it to be.

People can still buy an ICE vehicle for some time if they want, but the industry is moving over whether they like it or not - and in many cases that will be happening long before the Government acts.

 

[Class 317]

I work for a company that supplies tooling to amongst others car companies and a lot of car companies have already stopped investing any serious money in ICE car development.
Over the next few years new ICE car designs will become increasingly rare with all the big money is going into EV's.
Most of the car companies we supply are forecasting between 30 - 60 % of new cars will be EV's within 3 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most of the car companies we supply are forecasting between 30 - 60 % of new cars will be EV's within 3 years.

Well 15% of U.K. new cars are EV now, and it would be more if the supply issues were resolved (much worse for EVs than ICE so I understand). I’d be astonished if it wasn’t around the 50% mark within 3 years.

 

[jon0844]

MG seems to be keeping up with demand right now, having sufficient facilities to produce cars. The MG4 is perhaps starting to slip, but leasing companies have them in stock and ready to supply at short notice, and the newly refreshed MG5 seems to be available to buy with only a short wait.

With Ora and others entering the market, I do think some of the supply chain issues are being gradually reduced even with demand growing.

 

[AM9]

As ever, comparisons of ICE vs EV in terms of carbon emissions is always cherry picked to suit (like rail vs air vs road comparisons).

It's true that most EVs on sale are quite large SUVs, possibly because they are what people are willing to spend money on, and have higher profit margins. As these are big and heavy, there's perhaps less efficiency - but probably these cars will be used for longer journeys and ultimately save massively on emissions in the long run.

Actually, the relative inefficiency of a heavier EV (compared with a smaller EV) is far less than it is with ICVs of similar weight differences. That is due to EV's recovery of much of the kinetic energy through braking and even just allowing the motor to slow the vehicle down. With ICVs, the energy used to accelerate from standstill is delberately wasted either by overrunning the engine, or heating the brake padand discs. Of course, a larger frontal cross section area will present a greater drag factor however the vehicle is powered.

In 2023 and 2024 it's widely expected we're going to see smaller EVs entering the market, as well as cheaper cars in general (many having less toys; which suits plenty of people in cities that don't need all creature comforts; air con and Apple CarPlay/Android Auto - job done).

The emphasis on larger EV cars has been driven by: a) the simpler task of fitting a large battery and the traction equipment in the body, and b) in manufacturing cost terms, the difference between large and small EVs relatively small, far less than it is for ICVs where a larger engine can increase the cost considerably.

We'll also likely see smaller battery packs but with faster charging, because once people realise range anxiety isn't an issue most of the time they won't need to buy extended long-range models for those one-off events (like the 400 mile emergency visit to help a sick relative or re-pressurise a boiler).

Not only that but owners will learn how to plan journeys, where charging facilities are and break the habit of believing everything climate change sceptic journalists spout.

 

[jon0844]

It's certainly true that people don't seem to appreciate the lower servicing and maintenance costs, or the savings on brake pads/discs through regenerative braking etc.

It's also clear that some people make a point of not mentioning that, or simply downplaying it.

I have suffered battery anxiety with smartphones for many years, but now most phones have large batteries that it isn't an issue. I've not had a battery run out entirely for years, and a power bank in a bag covers you if you do use your phone more excessively than usual.

I believed in range anxiety early on, but now it's clear that it isn't a problem for 99% of people. There will be some edge case examples of why an EV would be impossible for someone, but there are quite possibly people who live in places miles from a petrol station - and perhaps one that is only open for limited hours, meaning you have to work around those limitations.

The stats still show that most people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day, and also that most EV owners charge at home.

The latest anti EV comments now seem to be based on the theory that if they're going to introduce a tax on EVs then the next thing will be using smart meters to jack up the electricity cost OR cutting people off. In reality, the meters will allow for smarter charging and encouraging usage at off-peak rates by way of discounts, not jacking up the cost of energy beyond what your tariff says.

There's also the matter of how a smart meter would know the difference between charging an EV or using an oven, dishwasher and washer dryer all at once, or a couple of convector heaters etc. Sure, you could make an assumption but I do think there are people who think smart meters are a lot smarter than they are - and buy into the mad conspiracy theories surrounding them.

 

[AM9]

The latest anti EV comments now seem to be based on the theory that if they're going to introduce a tax on EVs then the next thing will be using smart meters to jack up the electricity cost OR cutting people off. In reality, the meters will allow for smarter charging and encouraging usage at off-peak rates by way of discounts, not jacking up the cost of energy beyond what your tariff says.

There's also the matter of how a smart meter would know the difference between charging an EV or using an oven, dishwasher and washer dryer all at once, or a couple of convector heaters etc. Sure, you could make an assumption but I do think there are people who think smart meters are a lot smarter than they are - and buy into the mad conspiracy theories surrounding them.

That is very true at the moment. I think the only split-rate tariff available to join at the moment is the Octopus plan where it is necessary to have an EV smart charger fitted and an EV that allows vehicle to grid flows.

 

[jon0844]

The key is the tariff is to give cheaper rates, not some plan where the electricity supplier can just cut you off or say 'you're going to pay £5 a kilowatt now'.

Ofgem may be pretty useless but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Obviously if there's a power problem, they can cut everyone off smart meter or not - but that's a different story.

 

[AM9]

The key is the tariff is to give cheaper rates, not some plan where the electricity supplier can just cut you off or say 'you're going to pay £5 a kilowatt now'.

Ofgem may be pretty useless but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Obviously if there's a power problem, they can cut everyone off smart meter or not - but that's a different story.

Not sure what post you are answering there, but the principle that lectricity charges are higher when demand gets closer to generating or grid capacity is fair. It's been a principle of commuter rail fares and telephone call charges throughout both those industries' state run and private operations. In these days of climate emergency, it is necessary to minimise the marginal use of carbon fuels for generation of electricity. Differential pricing of 'peak' vs 'off- peak' allows EV users to make decisions with their own priorities in mind.

 

[Noddy]

The pollution created by mining for materials that make electric car batteries is equal to the amount of pollution a petrol/ electric car makes, so why not stick to the old dinosaurs and get to here those V8'S continue to roar.

But a significant number of future batteries (millions) will come from recycled old batteries, massively reducing the environmental and transportation damage. Redwood Materials are just one of a number of companies investing billions doing this:

Redwood Materials | Circular Supply Chain for Lithium-ion Batteries

Redwood is building a domestic battery supply chain comprised of battery recycling, refining, and remanufacturing sustainable battery materials, like cathode.

www.redwoodmaterials.com

I know you’re just trolling but I hope this will make other inquisitive folk realise the ‘batteries are environmentally terrible because of the mining and have to be chucked away after a few years’ trope can be banished to the bin where it belongs.

 

[trebor79]

That is very true at the moment. I think the only split-rate tariff available to join at the moment is the Octopus plan where it is necessary to have an EV smart charger fitted and an EV that allows vehicle to grid flows.

You're (incorrectly) describing Intelligent Octopus. There is also Octopus Go which doesn't require particular chargers or cars.
Intelligent doesn't require vehicle to grid, it requires that either your charger or vehicle can have the charging remotely started or stopped by Octopus.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure what post you are answering there, but the principle that lectricity charges are higher when demand gets closer to generating or grid capacity is fair. It's been a principle of commuter rail fares and telephone call charges throughout both those industries' state run and private operations. In these days of climate emergency, it is necessary to minimise the marginal use of carbon fuels for generation of electricity. Differential pricing of 'peak' vs 'off- peak' allows EV users to make decisions with their own priorities in mind.

My point is you need to be on a plan that will adjust as per your tariff. The conspiracy theorists are suggesting once you get a smart meter, you'll be charged anything at any time or be cut off at will.

 

[MotCO]

Well 15% of U.K. new cars are EV now, and it would be more if the supply issues were resolved (much worse for EVs than ICE so I understand). I’d be astonished if it wasn’t around the 50% mark within 3 years.

The real problem is the extra cost of an EV over an ICE. To take a random example - a Vauxhall Mokka ICE is £25,815 and a Mokka EV (same spec) is £34,910, a 35% increase. Many struggle to buy a new car at £25,000; at £35,000 it is impossible. So how will sales increase from 15% to 50% (i.e. over three times as much)?

 

[johncrossley]

You still can't routinely hire an electric car at an affordable rate. For example, looking at Avis at Heathrow for two weeks time, I can hire a Hyundai i10 (or similar) for £70 a day, but the only electric vehicle on offer is a Tesla at £300 a day.