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Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?
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Snow1964
Established Member
The SMMT (Society of motor manufacturers and traders) has just published latest sales figures
February is 17.7% BEV, 7.2% PHEV of new car sales
hybrids 12.7%, petrol 56.6%, diesel just 5.9%
So far in 2024 (Jan + Feb) 35,926 BEV, 18,042 PHEV sold
March sales usually lot higher as some wait for new registration plate
Car Registrations
SMMT is the country’s primary source of data on the motor industry. Click here for the SMMT car registrations data published monthly
www.smmt.co.uk
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Going to be interesting to see how the zero emission vehicle mandate impacts sales. This year 22% of cars sold by manufacturers will need to be electric which is going to leave some manufacturers exposed and they will get fined if they miss target. It progressively increases to 80% of new cars to be zero emission by 2030.The SMMT (Society of motor manufacturers and traders) has just published latest sales figures
February is 17.7% BEV, 7.2% PHEV of new car sales
hybrids 12.7%, petrol 56.6%, diesel just 5.9%
So far in 2024 (Jan + Feb) 35,926 BEV, 18,042 PHEV sold
March sales usually lot higher as some wait for new registration plate
Car Registrations
SMMT is the country’s primary source of data on the motor industry. Click here for the SMMT car registrations data published monthly
Going to be a fun ride.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
I've seen a couple of Diamond (Bee Network)'s new Enviro 200s which I'm pretty sure are just diesel.
pdq
Member
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- 7 Oct 2010
- Messages
- 805
I'm going to be one of those statistics next time round. We took delivery of a Kia Niro EV on March 1st last week. So far so excellent. We're moving to Ovo Charge Anytime soon, where EV charging costs 7p per kWh. We're already averaging 3.3 miles per kWh and I expect it to do better than that outside of winter. Even at that 3.3 miles, the fuel cost per 100 miles will be in the region of £2.20. At 40 mpg our ICE car was costing nearly £16 per 100 miles. Over the course of the car's 7 year warranty (say 80,000 miles) that fuel saving at today's prices is £11.5k. Yes the car itself was expensive at £40k, and I get that we're lucky to be in the position of affording it, but it's the right car for us at this point in time.
New and used car prices are clearly going to continue to fall, but we had to buy now as the previous car was at the end of its lease. The finance deal made buying new as affordable as buying nearly new at a discount but with a bank loan.
Just like consumer electronics, you know that the minute you buy something, the next new innovation will be launched the next month at a reduced price. Sometimes you have to take the leap because it's the most appropriate product at the most appropriate time.
New and used car prices are clearly going to continue to fall, but we had to buy now as the previous car was at the end of its lease. The finance deal made buying new as affordable as buying nearly new at a discount but with a bank loan.
Just like consumer electronics, you know that the minute you buy something, the next new innovation will be launched the next month at a reduced price. Sometimes you have to take the leap because it's the most appropriate product at the most appropriate time.
What are your needs? For short journeys, your electric bike is a great choice but if your car is exclusively for longer journeys (and for the occasional transporting of sofa, TVs, and whatnot) then a hybrid might end up doing very little on electric.
Plug-in hybrids use more fuel when they are dragging around an empty electric battery. This is worth it when you use the battery a lot (e.g for commuting) but if you do mostly long journeys which use far more than the battery range it can end up using more fuel than a basic petrol.
Not sure if I've said this already, but the Ora Funky Cat (Ora 03) is still available for £129 a month (5,000 mile limit, 2 year personal lease including VAT). A lot of people could afford to take a punt at that price (it's less than I'm paying on a petrol car). It is packed with tech too.
So with a 5,000 mile limit, let's say you have a petrol car doing 40mph average - and fuel at £1.40 a litre. That comes to a total fuel cost of £903.02 per year for 5,000 miles, or £75.27 per month. I am not sure how much an average car service is for a petrol car, but I would expect around £150-250 a year? [If we assume a petrol car is only used for short distances, to keep within the mileage limit, chances are it takes a while to get to temperature so will actually average less than 40mpg].
Looking at ZapMap to calculate the costs for the Ora, it works out (based on a reported average of 174 miles from the 48kWh battery) at 2.1p per mile (based on home charging at 7.5p kWh on a smart tariff designed for EVs). £105 for the year, or £8.75 a month. Then consider you need to do two services, which for many EVs is around £50-60 because they need to do barely anything.
I would say this has finally made EVs viable for people who aren't doing huge mileages (previously you'd need to be doing much higher mileages to justify the extra cost of the car). We are reaching the point now where I expect more deals like this will become the norm, not just crazy deals from a car maker flooding the market to gain market share.
So with a 5,000 mile limit, let's say you have a petrol car doing 40mph average - and fuel at £1.40 a litre. That comes to a total fuel cost of £903.02 per year for 5,000 miles, or £75.27 per month. I am not sure how much an average car service is for a petrol car, but I would expect around £150-250 a year? [If we assume a petrol car is only used for short distances, to keep within the mileage limit, chances are it takes a while to get to temperature so will actually average less than 40mpg].
Looking at ZapMap to calculate the costs for the Ora, it works out (based on a reported average of 174 miles from the 48kWh battery) at 2.1p per mile (based on home charging at 7.5p kWh on a smart tariff designed for EVs). £105 for the year, or £8.75 a month. Then consider you need to do two services, which for many EVs is around £50-60 because they need to do barely anything.
I would say this has finally made EVs viable for people who aren't doing huge mileages (previously you'd need to be doing much higher mileages to justify the extra cost of the car). We are reaching the point now where I expect more deals like this will become the norm, not just crazy deals from a car maker flooding the market to gain market share.
Mabs
Member
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- 24 Apr 2018
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- 400
I work part time for the railway and part time for the London underground so transport is free.
I got an electric bicycle through the cycle2work scheme so I only drive to work when the weather is bad.
From driving 15,000 - 20,000 miles a year I now only drive 1000 -3000 miles a year.
Sounds like the bike is a great option for you.
Car-wise I'd look into how long your journeys are for whether a hybrid is worth it.
No EV requires 2 services in a year if only doing 5,000 miles.
Our Niro EV service interval is every 2 years/20,000 miles. Our Tesla service interval is never, just test the brake fluid every 2 years.
Even better then. Many ICE cars are still 12m intervals regardless of mileage.
At 1,000 to 3,000 miles a year I'd question weather a mix of taxis and car club use might be better value than car ownership.
Dacia Spring pricing announced. A proper car for under £15k OTR!
Alright as a runabout I guess. That will have between 75 and 100 miles range (100% to 0%, so knock at least 10% off those) in the real world if used on dual carriageway/motorway.
Tiny battery so it will also charge slowly on DC.
Problem with this kind of offering is people will buy not being aware of the limitations and we'll see more FUD based around people being stranded on the motorway etc.
I don't think it's a "proper car" really. It's essentially going back to the original Nissan Leaf sort of capability.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's designed to be a second car urban runaround for well off people who would buy a brand new petrol for that purpose but go on long trips in the big family car.
For that use it'll be ideal. Much less so when sold second hand to a young person who would want to do long trips, though.
For that use it'll be ideal. Much less so when sold second hand to a young person who would want to do long trips, though.
Many of the comments on this lengthy post have been around the need for small, affordable battery electric cars. Rather surprisingly, the Spring was the third best selling BEV in Europe for the whole of 2022 and 2023 . That's quite an achievement, so I would suggest it is a proper car - not all of us want a 3 tonne SUV with 350 miles of range and charging rates of 270kW (looking at you Porsche Taycan).
It's not going to suit everyone, but for many, a smaller car, that rarely does long journeys and can easily charge at home is, based on the sales figures, exactly what people want.
It's absolutely perfect for a second car, but I'm surprised people think it wouldn't be ideal for an only car for the majority of motorists doing only 20-30 miles per day.
The small battery charges in around 4 hours at home, and because it's a small battery it's cheaper to charge too. And the specs claim up to 180 miles if used exclusively at low speed (20-40mph).
Long drives are possible on rare occasions as long as you accept the limitation of the slow DC charge speed. It's a shame about this, as if it was nearer 100kWh you could have had a rapid charge (given the small capacity battery). 40 odd minutes is quite a wait, but if you're paying £100 a month on a personal lease then you might not be too upset because of all the money you're saving.
Destination charging is the future though, so you might still manage a reasonable distance trip with only one stop.
I think it's biggest barrier is badge snobbery restricting sales. Some people will refuse to buy it for that reason alone.
Hopefully this (and other recent car launches) is pushing the industry to release more affordable EVs and imagine what a one or two hear old Spring will cost after depreciation. It will be an even bigger bargain, alongside the likes of the forthcoming Citroën e-C3.
The small battery charges in around 4 hours at home, and because it's a small battery it's cheaper to charge too. And the specs claim up to 180 miles if used exclusively at low speed (20-40mph).
Long drives are possible on rare occasions as long as you accept the limitation of the slow DC charge speed. It's a shame about this, as if it was nearer 100kWh you could have had a rapid charge (given the small capacity battery). 40 odd minutes is quite a wait, but if you're paying £100 a month on a personal lease then you might not be too upset because of all the money you're saving.
Destination charging is the future though, so you might still manage a reasonable distance trip with only one stop.
I think it's biggest barrier is badge snobbery restricting sales. Some people will refuse to buy it for that reason alone.
Hopefully this (and other recent car launches) is pushing the industry to release more affordable EVs and imagine what a one or two hear old Spring will cost after depreciation. It will be an even bigger bargain, alongside the likes of the forthcoming Citroën e-C3.
Well off people are not going to buy a Dacia!
How many people on this thread run a 100% 2 car EV household? I do.
The reality is that tiny battery will need charging every night. So how do I charge the Tesla which does 200 miles a day?
My wife drives a Niro EV. It has a 68kWh battery and is fine for all of her driving, ferrying kids around etc to be charged once or twice a week.
The Spring sold in Europe has no heat pump, and no regenerative braking. That's going to be appallingly inefficient for an EV around town. And short journeys will make it even worse due to repeatedly having to heat the cabin from cold.
In fact I doubt you'd get 100 miles out of it.
Why would you buy a Spring when you could buy a second hand Ionic with a similar size battery but much better efficiency, nicer interior etc for less money?
On a per mile basis the size of the battery makes no difference to charging cost. The Spring will be expensive for an EV on a per mile cost because there's no heat pump or regenerative braking.
There is absolutely no chance of getting 180 miles from a 26kWh battery. Zero. Nada. Nothing. Not happening. 4 miles per kWh tops and remember you can't use all of the battery so really it's a sub 100 mile range in good conditions.
There are plenty of affordable EVs on the market and coming. Loads of used options. MG and BYD are making inroads. Ora have messed up on their pricing with the Cat but that's the sort of spec you need in terms of battery size.
Spring with a 50kWh battery would be a better proposition.
It does have regenerative braking. A heat pump is nice to have though, but we don't get as cold in the winter as a lot of other places.
Hopefully a bigger battery comes along, with faster charging (that seems like something they cut back a little too much on), but the point is that most people do 20-30 miles a day and don't need more. If they did, they may look at another car. There will be three spec levels, and there's no reason there couldn't be a higher spec model one day.
I'm only pointing out how perfect this car is for a LARGE number of people. I never set out to say everyone should get one and surely you could already see that you aren't the intended market. Indeed, I am not going to get one, nor do I sell them, nor do I get a commission for any that do sell or get paid as an influencer.
They are cars that show affordable city cars are coming - and this won't be the only one.
Hopefully a bigger battery comes along, with faster charging (that seems like something they cut back a little too much on), but the point is that most people do 20-30 miles a day and don't need more. If they did, they may look at another car. There will be three spec levels, and there's no reason there couldn't be a higher spec model one day.
I'm only pointing out how perfect this car is for a LARGE number of people. I never set out to say everyone should get one and surely you could already see that you aren't the intended market. Indeed, I am not going to get one, nor do I sell them, nor do I get a commission for any that do sell or get paid as an influencer.
They are cars that show affordable city cars are coming - and this won't be the only one.
Whilst they sold quite well in Europe, the market has moved on in the last few years. I don't know why anybody would buy a Spring when they could buy a much more capable used vehicle, still with a decent amount of manufacturer warranty remaining, for the same sort of money.
I predict it won't sell very well.
The slow charging is a direct result of the small battery, larger batteries can accept higher charge currents as well as offering f useful range. So not only do you have to charge frequently, you're waiting longer for the same amount of miles to be added. The battery is the one thing that shouldn't be scrimped on.
20-30 miles per working day is about average for someone doing 8,000 miles a year (about the average).
That's then about 60 miles per weekend, so unless you're not using for several weekends a year is unlikely that it'll be used for many 100+ mile trips.
Given that the average 50+ mile trips per person is about 6 (a trip being there and another trip back again) for a lot of people (even a fair number for whom it's their only car) a range of 100 miles is probably fine.
Surely if a car is almost exclusively doing city miles, at lower speeds, the range isn't going to drop to 100? That's likely why Dacia is claiming up to 180 for the expected usage because the 135 mile figure is WLTP - so considering faster speeds as part of the test.
The range will likely fall rapidly if you take the car on a motorway, but someone doing a lot of miles and higher speeds wouldn't buy a car with a small battery.
The range will likely fall rapidly if you take the car on a motorway, but someone doing a lot of miles and higher speeds wouldn't buy a car with a small battery.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's basically OK for one of the use-cases for small cars - the second runaround that doesn't do long journeys - but not for the other one - the (typically young) person who does plenty of long journeys but can't afford a car more suitable for them.
Of course there's nothing that says the same car needs to be usable for both use-cases. It might mean lower residual values if there's a smaller pool of buyers, but people will always want runaround type small cars.
It depends.
In winter I find that stop/start city driving actually uses MORE energy per mile than 70mph cruising on the motorway, because the energy used by the heating system becomes way more significant. And that's in a car with a heat pump and very elaborate system to scavenge waste heat from the power electronics and motors and dump it into the cabin or battery (batteries have a higher internal resistance at low temperatures).
The WLTP figures Dacia are claiming are based upon a test cycle that isn't really appropriate (not their fault, it's what they are mandated to do). EV Database figures (https://ev-database.org/uk/car/2126/Dacia-Spring-Electric-45) are much more realistic, and for the Spring it's suggesting 85 - 115 miles range (and remember that's 100% - 0%, so real world you need to knock about 20% off that so it's really 70 - 95 miles). 0-60 19 seconds. Hardly a nippy city car to dodge into traffic.
It's really pathetic. Nobody in their right mind would buy one when there are much better nearly new vehicles for the same money.
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Some people will simply not buy second hand cars though, and I expect the car will be stupidly cheap to lease.
I think a lot of people will buy the car, but obviously not those who will turn their nose up to the Dacia brand and be embarrassed to have one on their drive.
As for the 0-60, I'd be more interested in the 0-30mph speed TBH. It does sound like trying to build up speed on a motorway slip-road would be scary!
It'll be stupidly expensive to lease (vs other vehicles at similar price points) because the residual value will be horrific.
It would have done alright 10 years ago as a competitor to the original Leaf and Zoe. But it's just not competitive with the current market. stick a decent sixed battery and more powerful motor on it and it would do well, and add perhaps £5,000 to the cost. Would probably make it cheaper to lease as the residuals would be better.
If someone is averse to buying used (but there's far less risk with EV than ICE, so that's going to change), then there are great lease deals on far better cars than this - eg Smart Hashtag 1 was recently available for £199 a month.
And if it's a "I wouldn't be seen dead in a used car" snobbery, they 'aint gonna buy a Dacia!
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
As electric cars get cheaper I can definitely imagine myself having a second/third/fourthhand low range EV.
For long journeys I try to always get the train so long journey charging probably won't be a problem.
For long journeys I try to always get the train so long journey charging probably won't be a problem.