Docklands Light Railway - Thamesmead Extension (Discussion)

[Jammy Dodger]

Created to discuss progress of the DLR extension to Thamesmead.

News reports out today state TfL is proceeding with design and planning, with planning requests in 2026, and construction complete by early 2030's

Plans progressing for new DLR extension to reach Thamesmead

The DLR extension would require a new tunnel dug underneath the Thames, with plans being aimed for submission in 2026

www.standard.co.uk

Plans progressing for new DLR extension to reach Thamesmead​

The DLR extension would require a new tunnel dug underneath the Thames, with plans being aimed for submission in 2026
Plans to extend the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) to reach one of London’s most remote neighbourhoods will hopefully be submitted by 2026, Sadiq Khan has said.
The Mayor said City Hall and other public bodies - along with developers and landowners - had put around £1.5m towards feasibility studies for the project, which would see the DLR reach Thamesmead.



The area, located in south-east London and just north of Abbey Wood, is currently unserved by Tube, DLR, Overground and National Rail services.

It is hoped that if the DLR extension is created, it will help to support the construction of between 20,000 and 30,000 new homes in both Thamesmead and Beckton Riverside.


The new DLR branch would split off from the existing route near Gallions Reach, with a new station created at Beckton Riverside.

 

[Thirteen]

I'm guessing the additional B23s that were bought will be used on the extension.

 

[PGAT]

I really hope this comes. Thamesmead desperately needs public transport links.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm guessing the additional B23s that were bought will be used on the extension.

Unlikely, they won’t have been ordered for that purpose, they’ll be accounted for with already approved capacity and frequency changes.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I'm guessing the additional B23s that were bought will be used on the extension.

Unlikely, they won’t have been ordered for that purpose, they’ll be accounted for with already approved capacity and frequency changes.

33 units were initially ordered to replace B90/92/2K, 10 to increase service amounts, and 11 are planned to be ordered on top (to a total of 54) with funding from the Housing Infrastructure Fund. This is (I believe) for the 20,000 new homes at Thamesmead West and Beckton Riverside that will be unlocked with the extension.

New DLR trains begin arriving in London - Murky Depths

The first new DLR train has arrived in London as works to increase frequency and capacity with a fleet of up to 53 trains

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Funding for new trains and the expansion partly comes from the Housing Infrastructure Fund. However, government are now dragging their feet on signing off the final tranche of money.

From October 2022 TfL report
A total of eleven trains out of 53 are dependent on those funds.

 

[SynthD]

TfL pushing on with DLR extension to Thamesmead

A feasibility study that could see the DLR extended to Thamesmead is nearing completion and is looking likely to recommend the project.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

The map seems to have a station by the roundabout at the Gallions Reach retail park and a tunnel portal between the car park and the lake. I guess the Thamesmead station is at KFC, or further southwest for future expansion. The tunnel portals will be pretty big to be flood proof.

 

[Recessio]

I wonder what will happen to the Beckton services? Will it stay the same and increase the upstream tph along the whole Thamesmead+Beckton branch, or will Beckton lose tph to service Thames mead? (especially if the new Beckton Riverside station won't be too far).

I also wonder if the Thamesmead station will at least be sensibly planned, if not containing passive provision, for an extension of the GOBLIN from Barking Riverside across the river.

I can't wait to see proposed station design, TfL have done some great work at making stations blend in to the local architecture or feature local landmarks (e.g. Hackney Wick and Crossrail core stations) - maybe we'll see a Brutalist station building to match the estate?

 

[Basil Jet]

I can't wait to see proposed station design, TfL have done some great work at making stations blend in to the local architecture or feature local landmarks (e.g. Hackney Wick and Crossrail core stations) - maybe we'll see a Brutalist station building to match the estate?

If they extend the Goblin under the river, it can be renamed the Clockwork Orange.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I wonder what will happen to the Beckton services? Will it stay the same and increase the upstream tph along the whole Thamesmead+Beckton branch, or will Beckton lose tph to service Thames mead? (especially if the new Beckton Riverside station won't be too far).

I also wonder if the Thamesmead station will at least be sensibly planned, if not containing passive provision, for an extension of the GOBLIN from Barking Riverside across the river.

I can't wait to see proposed station design, TfL have done some great work at making stations blend in to the local architecture or feature local landmarks (e.g. Hackney Wick and Crossrail core stations) - maybe we'll see a Brutalist station building to match the estate?

I presume one of Beckton/Thamesmead will get the Stratford trains and the other the City trains. If this DLR extension continued to Abbey Wood I'd suggest Abbey Wood-Stratford as it'd probably be quicker to the city from Thamesmead by changing at Abbey Wood. However it looks like the extension will terminate in Thamesmead. At that point I guess it depends how demand from Beckton and Thamesmead to Stratford, Canary Wharf, and the City balance out—plus demand to other parts of Central London like the West End, which would require an extra change from both the City and Stratford trains and for which I therefore suspect Stratford might be more useful! (Unlikely, but if there's significant Lewisham demand that would favour City trains for a change at Poplar.)

 

[Meerkat]

What does this plan achieve, for what is presumably a very large cost due to the tunnel?
If that extension bit isnt built then the line doesn't look much/any closer to much of Thamesmead than Abbey Wood station, and will be presumably much slower into the city than getting the Lizzie, and possibly not quicker than getting the Lizzie to Custom House and changing for Stratford.

 

[CeeJ]

If they extend the Goblin under the river, it can be renamed the Clockwork Orange.

The DLR branch can be renamed the Misfits Line.

What does this plan achieve, for what is presumably a very large cost due to the tunnel?

Providing additional metro availability in a deprived area, I would assume. Quite a high density area with only buses to serve it - for much of the area it's quite a walk to the Lizzy Line.

 

[J-2739]

Providing additional metro availability in a deprived area, I would assume. Quite a high density area with only buses to serve it - for much of the area it's quite a walk to the Lizzy Line.

I'm surprised that somebody needed to explain that.

 

[Meerkat]

The DLR branch can be renamed the Misfits Line.

Providing additional metro availability in a deprived area, I would assume. Quite a high density area with only buses to serve it - for much of the area it's quite a walk to the Lizzy Line.

That doesn't answer my question - "additional" doesn't justify the cost.
Its a slow route to anywhere important, and particularly without the "maybe extension" station its just as long a walk from much of the area.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why go through the expense of tunneling under the Thames if its not going to connect with crossrail at Abbey Wood? Seems daft.

 

[Recessio]

Because Thamesmead's public transport is so utterly dire that an extension there alone justifies itself.

A further extension to Abbey Wood would be a bonus, but might be quite difficult/expensive to reach, which might make it not worth it - especially as Elizabeth already has plenty of interchanges with the DLR elsewhere. (They didn't take Crossrail to City Airport for this reason, as they figure the DLR connections are good enough).

 

[floor3013]

Looking at the latest outline case it appears a stub to Beckton Riverside plus a BRT Woolwich-Thamesmead-Abbey Wood will be the option taken forward as a compromise.

Personally the more I look at the scheme the more this option makes sense. Despite the political aspiration to connect to the Royal Docks and for 'direct access to the city', for most in Thamesmead the main benefit will be an access route onto the Elizabeth line, and realistic journey times for most will be comparable in either getting a BRT to Woolwich vs what looks like it will be a 13 minute DLR journey to Custom House. Both the Thamesmead link plus the longer term aspirations to reach Barking and Belvedere (and Dagenham) have the same primary benefit, so why would they need to be DLR if a BRT (or tram-based alternative) would be significantly cheaper to implement.

The trick in my view will be dressing up the BRT as a new mode that goes on the TfL map, is closer to the Trams in station design, and clearly differentiated from the rest of the bus network. The road network around Thamesmead, which was built in the 70s and is under its design capacity is well suited to conversion.

 

[Nodding Cat Ch]

Seems like a lot of effort tunneling under the Thames etc, not to go all the way and extend the DLR to intersect along the line to Woolwich.

 

[Thirteen]

Looking at the latest outline case it appears a stub to Beckton Riverside plus a BRT Woolwich-Thamesmead-Abbey Wood will be the option taken forward as a compromise.

Personally the more I look at the scheme the more this option makes sense. Despite the political aspiration to connect to the Royal Docks and for 'direct access to the city', for most in Thamesmead the main benefit will be an access route onto the Elizabeth line, and realistic journey times for most will be comparable in either getting a BRT to Woolwich vs what looks like it will be a 13 minute DLR journey to Custom House. Both the Thamesmead link plus the longer term aspirations to reach Barking and Belvedere (and Dagenham) have the same primary benefit, so why would they need to be DLR if a BRT (or tram-based alternative) would be significantly cheaper to implement.

The trick in my view will be dressing up the BRT as a new mode that goes on the TfL map, is closer to the Trams in station design, and clearly differentiated from the rest of the bus network. The road network around Thamesmead, which was built in the 70s and is under its design capacity is well suited to conversion.

Couldn't they just put the BRT under Superloop?

 

[Horizon22]

TfL have outlined their initial plans to extend the line to Thamesmead via Gallions Reach. This has formally been submitted to Government and aims to bring up to 30,000 new homes and 10,000 jobs.

Potential DLR extension

We're considering extending the DLR to Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead to improve transport connections and enable growth in housing and jobs

tfl.gov.uk

We're working with partners and Homes England to maximise local and regional funding. We're also finding ways to reduce costs and create efficiencies, but Government support is needed because of the size of the project.

We have submitted a full Strategic Outline Case to Government - we need a contribution towards funding the progress to the Outline Business Case stage.

Government capital funding would also be necessary to begin construction as early as 2028. This would enable us to open to customers in the early 2030s.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Seems like a lot of effort tunneling under the Thames etc, not to go all the way and extend the DLR to intersect along the line to Woolwich.

It does seem a lot of tunnelling work for a very short extension, but it does make some sense. Extending the DLR fully to Abbey Wood won't give much extra useful connectivity with the Elizabeth line - since going Thamesmead->Abbey Wood->London will be scarcely quicker that Thamesmead->Custom House->London. And Thamesmead->Woolwich would likely still be quickest via the new express bus they seem to be proposing. So the only real benefit of extending the DLR to Abbey Wood would be for people wanting to connect specifically to SouthEastern destinations (Dartford, Greenwich, etc.), plus that it would allow one or two more DLR stations around Thamesmead. While those are significant benefits, I can see why at a time when it's tough to secure money for any new infrastructure investment, TfL have gone for the most minimal Thamesmead extension possible.

I do though hope that, if it's built, the design of the Thamesmead station will include passive provision for a further extension.

 

[ScotGG]

It seems an expensive waste of time at those costs if it only has one stop in Thamesmead.

I'll file this under not happening. Many more likely candidates for funding will be in front

 

[Sunil_P]

One stop? I thought Beckton Riverside was the intermediate station.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One stop? I thought Beckton Riverside was the intermediate station.

Beckton Riverside isn't in Thamesmead! So it's only one stop in Thamesmead. And pedantically, you could argue the new tunnel under the Thames will be being built for the sake of one stop (since Beckton Riverside could be built without any tunnelling).

 

[PGAT]

It seems an expensive waste of time at those costs if it only has one stop in Thamesmead.

I'll file this under not happening. Many more likely candidates for funding will be in front

How many more candidates will have more priority than a literal town in London without a single railway?

 

[Recessio]

How many more candidates will have more priority than a literal town in London without a single railway?

And also adding another needed river crossing!

 

[Mojo]

It seems a bit pointless to go all that way and not link it up with Elizabeth line at either Abbey Wood or Woolwich.

Is there any detail about exactly how the new bus links will be “rapid?” I had to travel from Harrow to Heathrow airport during the afternoon peak on Friday. Despite being served by the X140 bus which is supposed to be a key part of Khan’s showcase Superloop bus network, was painfully slow and unreliable - it would have been half the journey time by car and actually faster by public transport to have taken the Piccadilly line from Rayners Lane and changing at Acton Town.

 

[PGAT]

I’m sure Khan has got something up his sleeve, there’s no way he’s getting away with just rebranding the buses to superloop and calling it a day.

Maybe some bus lanes?

 

[TheManWho]

Beckton Riverside isn't in Thamesmead! So it's only one stop in Thamesmead. And pedantically, you could argue the new tunnel under the Thames will be being built for the sake of one stop (since Beckton Riverside could be built without any tunnelling).

The Woolwich Arsenal extension was a tunnel under the river for just one station.

 

[tasky]

I think people saying 'it's only one stop in Thamesmead how could it justify a tunnel' are missing the point - the number of stops is less important to whether a project goes ahead than what they achieve.

The GLA reckons the Thamesmead opportunity area as could deliver 8,000 new homes as it is. If the DLR is extended they reckon that becomes 15,000 new homes.

Even at a relatively conservative estimate, 7,000 homes are worth billions of pounds to a developer. The reality is that TfL's ability to deliver new infrastructure at the moment is based on whether a private developer will stump up some cash to build it (this has been the case with the Northern Line extension, and even the Elizabeth Line).

As a result this probably has a better chance of happening than many other projects.

 

[Thirteen]

Thamesmead is one of the very few places in London not served by any rail services so I think in terms of regeneration, it's more likely to happen than the Bakerloo Line Extension and cheaper as well.