Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[norbitonflyer]

It seems the priority is to ensure we pay for the service. Actually providing the service we've paid for comes lower down the list.

 

[XAM2175]

I suppose at least we should be grateful that TVMs weren't made to apply the Railcard checks too, which is of course the opposite resolution for the discrepancy.

 

[miklcct]

I often get the impression that someone the railway take a view that we run the service our way and you either accept it or don't use it.

There are a number of things that the railway does that aren't particularly customer friendly. And heaven forbid that you make a complaint, as most TOCs customer service is appealing with long waits and poor responses that don't fix the issue.

I guess the problem is that unlike most other industries peoplehave to usethe railways. I may not be happy with the service on occasions but if want to get around I have no other option. This probably creates the attitude amongst some that you either use itour way or don't.

It's because the railway is a monopoly in most of the UK, and if people have to travel they have no choice but to use the railway.

 

[Runningaround]

Yes, it's silly but it's because computers generally don't care. It's a machine that programmed to provide the basic function within its own limitations.




You could have easily not bought the Railcard.

I firmly believe that most people are honest. It's unfortunate that many aren't.

It's too easy to walk up to any TVM and apply a ticket discount and then chance your luck. It's probably the best way to scam a ticket. When I was younger.. I'd stick 5p in a permit to travel machine knowing that if I got caught I'd effectively 'get away with it'

By having a person in a ticket office and forcing someone to show a Railcard it does prevent ticket abuse, or at least mitigate against it.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

This doesn't make sense, who would bother buying a ticket with a railcard discount if they were wanting to evade the correct fare or any fare at all? The outcome of being caught with a Railcard discounted ticket your not intitled to or without a ticket at all is the same. If you need a ticket to operate a barrier then you buy the cheapest one that won't get flagged up as Railcard Discounted.

 

[Jimini]

When I was younger.. I'd stick 5p in a permit to travel machine knowing that if I got caught I'd effectively 'get away with it'

Not just me then!

 

[ComUtoR]

If you need a ticket to operate a barrier then you buy the cheapest one that won't get flagged up as Railcard Discounted.

People will steal and cheat as much as they believe they can get away with it. Not forgetting that first and foremost. You still need to get caught.

Some people will doughnut. Why ? Because it's another barrier scam but they still believe buying two tickets is logical.

If a PRIV was available (75% discount) you could get a very cheap fare and keep doing it for as long as possible. If you get caught you say it was your first time.

Adults will chance it with a child fare and and some will apply a 16-25 Railcard knowing it's cheaper but then try to blag it that they lost their card or forgot it today.

Just reading through this forum I've learned that there are many ways to scam a ticket and many excuses that sometimes, you get away with. Again, they only apply if you get caught.

 

[6Gman]

I agree with this, I've never experienced an industry that seems to openly treat it's customers as an inconvenience in the same way the railway does...

I take it you've never had a contract with TalkTalk?

 

[geoffk]

When I was a kid, full fare on the railway applied at age 14. As I apparently looked young for my age, it wasn't difficult buying a half-fare ticket at 14 or 15 and many of us did it. As the school leaving age was raised from 14 to 15 in 1947 (and 15 to 16 in 1972), I suppose we resented being treated as adults. Of course, when we wanted to go to the pub we pretended to be older! No ID cards then.

 

[Runningaround]

People will steal and cheat as much as they believe they can get away with it. Not forgetting that first and foremost. You still need to get caught.

Some people will doughnut. Why ? Because it's another barrier scam but they still believe buying two tickets is logical.

If a PRIV was available (75% discount) you could get a very cheap fare and keep doing it for as long as possible. If you get caught you say it was your first time.

Adults will chance it with a child fare and and some will apply a 16-25 Railcard knowing it's cheaper but then try to blag it that they lost their card or forgot it today.

Just reading through this forum I've learned that there are many ways to scam a ticket and many excuses that sometimes, you get away with. Again, they only apply if you get caught.

You still don't make sense. A railcard bought ticket is as much use as no ticket or a short fare ticket, why would anyone bother buying a RC discounted ticket if your goal is to get away with as little expense as possible. With a short ticket you can operate a barrier without hindrance to enter your platform and train and if challenged beyond your stop you claim you fell asleep, if you need to exit with a ticket again you buy from a nearer station. If its RC discounted you run a higher risk of being caught without the correct ticket as you will not have a RC to show.

 

[yorkie]

To offer an alternative but similar scenario; you wouldn't expect a supermarket checkout operator to take your word for it if you stated that you had a clubcard without showing evidence of it, so why is it wrong that ticket offices require evidence of the railcard before applying the discount?

This analogy is wrong.

What you are actually proposing is that ticket office staff impose a greater burden than online sales; do you have any justification for this?

Perhaps the railway can make things difficult for passengers

There is no "perhaps" about it.

but equally some passengers take the railway for granted and can be rude to staff, I would guess more so than in other retail/transport industries, so it works both ways.

It does work both ways as I've witnessed rail staff be incredibly rude to passengers. It is equally unjustified in either direction, but anyone who is doing a job needs to be doing that job to a high standard and should be held to account (just as I am in any job I do).

 

[Philip]

This analogy is wrong.

What you are actually proposing is that ticket office staff impose a greater burden than online sales; do you have any justification for this?


There is no "perhaps" about it.


It does work both ways as I've witnessed rail staff be incredibly rude to passengers. It is equally unjustified in either direction, but anyone who is doing a job needs to be doing that job to a high standard and should be held to account (just as I am in any job I do).

Then perhaps it is the online sales which are doing it wrong - perhaps the online retailers ought to toughen up on preventing railcard fraud rather than booking office staff taking a passenger's word for it. One thing which springs to mind is for a customer to have to input a unique railcard number and their name when buying tickets online which are both stored in a 'valid railcard' database and for these to have to match in order for the discount to be applied.

It is also unfair on the guards if booking staff or online retailers aren't bothering to check that passengers have a valid railcard on them when asking for the discount, as it means the guard then often has to deal with the situation of 'discounted ticket without a valid railcard' and the potential confrontation this can cause, when the whole scenario could've been prevented by the booking office staff or online retailers asking for proof before applying the discount when selling the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Then perhaps it is the online sales which are doing it wrong - perhaps the online retailers ought to toughen up on preventing railcard fraud rather than booking office staff taking a passenger's word for it. One thing which springs to mind is for a customer to have to input a unique railcard number and their name when buying tickets online which are both stored in a 'valid railcard' database and for these to have to match in order for the discount to be applied.

Is this a serious post? Retailers do not have access to the Railcard database.

Also, what if you are buying in advance? You may not have a Railcard yet, or you may be renewing your Railcard.

 

[Adam Williams]

Then perhaps it is the online sales which are doing it wrong - perhaps the online retailers ought to toughen up on preventing railcard fraud rather than booking office staff taking a passenger's word for it. One thing which springs to mind is for a customer to have to input a unique railcard number and their name when buying tickets online which are both stored in a 'valid railcard' database and for these to have to match in order for the discount to be applied.

This is an excellent way to decimate your conversion rate by destroying usability - you'd have to force all retailers to implement this via all channels (web, mobile app) at the same time or else your customers will simply go elsewhere to a retailer who makes it less burdensome to buy their tickets. Who's going to pay for all this development work, the taxpayer?

There are enough barriers in the way to buying tickets as it is, do we really need more?

Guards do a pretty good job at ensuring ticket holders have their Railcard with them as it is.

 

[Philip]

This is an excellent way to decimate your conversion rate by destroying usability - you'd have to force all retailers to implement this via all channels (web, mobile app) at the same time or else your customers will simply go elsewhere to a retailer who makes it less burdensome to buy their tickets. Who's going to pay for all this development work, the taxpayer?

There are enough barriers in the way to buying tickets as it is, do we really need more?

Guards do a pretty good job at ensuring ticket holders have their Railcard with them as it is.

Is this a serious post? Retailers do not have access to the Railcard database.

Also, what if you are buying in advance? You may not have a Railcard yet, or you may be renewing your Railcard.

It would be a way to make things consistent. Why should the railways operators not have methods to help protect their revenue? If I went to a shop with some kind of discount card then I would fully expect to be asked to show proof of the valid card and quite right too - it should be no different with booking offices. Some passengers need to start taking responsibility in ensuring they have a valid railcard and ready to present to the clerk when buying tickets, rather than moaning about the railway making things difficult.

 

[Adam Williams]

If I went to a shop with some kind of discount card then I would fully expect to be asked to show proof of the valid card and quite right too

The goods are delivered at the point of purchase, so the analogy breaks down, there is no later point at which services are rendered (travel date).

Tell me, if you go to a dentist and get a check-up done, and then tell them you hold a valid entitlement to free dental care - what happens? Are you required to take "responsibility" and bring proof of age/universal credit status with you at the point of payment?

If you go to a pharmacy and pick up medicine, and tell the staff member you don't have to pay for prescriptions, what happens?

I'll tell you what happens: they take you at your word, let you go on your way and check in the background to ensure you're telling the truth. The taxpayer's money is safeguarded and the customer experience is superior.

So, why do we care if an individual has a railcard on them at purchase time if we can ensure that the railway hasn't lost out in terms of revenue? I'd actually be in favour of being much more forgiving here - and letting guards look up railcard status by email address / postcode / name (perhaps for customers who opt in). Why should carrying a physical card matter if the railcard has been paid for and the industry has not lost out on any revenue?

Some passengers need to start taking responsibility in ensuring they have a valid railcard and ready to present to the clerk when buying tickets

This attitude is what is wrong with the rail industry, it's not passenger centric at all. Passengers are an inconvenience who "do not take personal responsibility" and are made to jump through stupid hoops which do very little to actually protect revenue.

We expect them to understand obscure rules on ticket fulfillment, validity, refunds and historically have done a really poor job at communicating during e.g. times of disruption.

We don't have a captive audience anymore who are forced to buy expensive seasons and work in the London-based office 5 days a week. That horse has bolted the stable.

 

[yorkie]

It would be a way to make things consistent.

Ticket offices are largely irrelevant for most passengers these days; it is for ticket offices to abolish their archaic practices rather than for ticket offices to introduce them.

Why should the railways operators not have methods to help protect their revenue?

This statement is a propositional fallacy.

Who is saying they shouldn't?

If I went to a shop with some kind of discount card then I would fully expect to be asked to show proof of the valid card and quite right too - it should be no different with booking offices.

This is a false equivalence; a ticket office selling tickets is not selling a physical product.

The vast majority of sales are made online these days (or, to a decreasing extent, from ticket machines) and not from ticket offices.

The archaic practices at those ticket offices which remain in existence (which will be very reduced in number as they become less relevant) need to change to match the more modern methods.

Some passengers need to start taking responsibility in ensuring they have a valid railcard and ready to present to the clerk when buying tickets, rather than moaning about the railway making things difficult.

And some ticket office staff need to stop moaning about modern practices and accept that if they are going to have any chance of being relevant in future, they are going to have to abolish archaic practices.

This attitude is what is wrong with the rail industry....

Indeed but is entirely expected, sadly. The reply will be all too predictable too...

This thread gives excellent examples to justify the proposed mass closure of ticket offices.

 

[Philip]

Ticket offices do not need to modernize in this aspect of railcard checking - they are within their rights to ask for evidence of a valid railcard, just like gateline staff and guards are; and if ticket clerks ask to see a valid railcard it potentially saves a problem for the guard further down the line. Ticket offices remaining open is not dependent on whether they 'modernize' in the way being suggested. As I say, some passengers (and contributers to this thread!) simply need to stop moaning pointlessly, it is no great hardship making sure they have a valid railcard on them and presenting it at the office when buying the ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is this a serious post? Retailers do not yet have access to the Railcard database.

Also, what if you are buying in advance? You may not have a Railcard yet, or you may be renewing your Railcard.

Fixed that for you, you never know what is just around the corner.

 

[yorkie]

But even so, what about buying tickets for a group?

Also you can buy up to several weeks in advance; you don't need the railcard to be valid until the travel date.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's because the railway is a monopoly in most of the UK, and if people have to travel they have no choice but to use the railway.

That must be one of the most inaccurate statements ever made in these forums.

 

[Deerfold]

Ticket offices do not need to modernize in this aspect of railcard checking - they are within their rights to ask for evidence of a valid railcard, just like gateline staff and guards are; and if ticket clerks ask to see a valid railcard it potentially saves a problem for the guard further down the line. Ticket offices remaining open is not dependent on whether they 'modernize' in the way being suggested. As I say, some passengers (and contributers to this thread!) simply need to stop moaning pointlessly, it is no great hardship making sure they have a valid railcard on them and presenting it at the office when buying the ticket.

They're within their rights, but to what end? How does it protect revenue or make the passenger experience better?

Passengers won't stop moaning, they'll just stop using ticket offices.

 

[miklcct]

That must be one of the most inaccurate statements ever made in these forums.

I don't see other forms of public transport, namely buses, coaches and airlines, have the massive coverage in the country like the railways.

 

[JamesT]

I don't see other forms of public transport, namely buses, coaches and airlines, have the massive coverage in the country like the railways.

Where in the UK are there trains but not buses? I almost always have to take a bus first before I can think about the train.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't see other forms of public transport, namely buses, coaches and airlines, have the massive coverage in the country like the railways.

You didn’t specify public transport. Many many millions of people hardly ever use trains.

 

[miklcct]

Where in the UK are there trains but not buses? I almost always have to take a bus first before I can think about the train.

Can you go around your region easily if you only use buses and coaches easily? Here I'm talking about the network effect, if buses and coaches can be a strong competitor to trains.

 

[Runningaround]

Ticket offices do not need to modernize in this aspect of railcard checking - they are within their rights to ask for evidence of a valid railcard, just like gateline staff and guards are; and if ticket clerks ask to see a valid railcard it potentially saves a problem for the guard further down the line. Ticket offices remaining open is not dependent on whether they 'modernize' in the way being suggested. As I say, some passengers (and contributers to this thread!) simply need to stop moaning pointlessly, it is no great hardship making sure they have a valid railcard on them and presenting it at the office when buying the ticket.

You are aware 90% of tickets including the ones bought with a RC can be bought online already? What difference should it be for any other discounted ticket? If you are caught without the RC then you should be able to produce it at a later point and show you travelled with both ticket and RC valid at the point of travel.
Ticket offices are going to be no more than information points and the staff their would be far better utilised as mobile information points who can be shifted to places in areas of disruption or at least at stations with new TVM's to guide passengers on how to use them.

 

[Runningaround]

Can you go around your region easily if you only use buses and coaches easily? Here I'm talking about the network effect, if buses and coaches can be a strong competitor to trains.

Without a car I can only go around 80% of my region using a bus in fact it's quicker and more frequent than the few areas the train serves.
If I had the means and ability a boat would be better.

 

[Philip]

You are aware 90% of tickets including the ones bought with a RC can be bought online already? What difference should it be for any other discounted ticket? If you are caught without the RC then you should be able to produce it at a later point and show you travelled with both ticket and RC valid at the point of travel.
Ticket offices are going to be no more than information points and the staff their would be far better utilised as mobile information points who can be shifted to places in areas of disruption or at least at stations with new TVM's to guide passengers on how to use them.

There is too much potential for conflict, which the guard shouldn't have to deal with. Perhaps if certain passengers showed a bit more respect to staff instead of getting abusive and occasionally violent when they hear something they don't like then a compromise solution like the above could work.

The railway is not a free-for-all, but a lot of passengers seem to think it is. When a passenger buys a railcard then they agree to the T&Cs set out in the application form which includes the section about needing to produce it at the office when buying a discounted ticket. If they can't follow this then they can't blame the ticket office for it.

 

[JamesT]

Can you go around your region easily if you only use buses and coaches easily? Here I'm talking about the network effect, if buses and coaches can be a strong competitor to trains.

Probably easier than by train, given places like Witney that lost their train services in the 1960s.

 

[Runningaround]

There is too much potential for conflict, which the guard shouldn't have to deal with. Perhaps if certain passengers showed a bit more respect to staff instead of getting abusive and occasionally violent when they hear something they don't like then a compromise solution like the above could work.

The railway is not a free-for-all, but a lot of passengers seem to think it is. When a passenger buys a railcard then they agree to the T&Cs set out in the application form which includes the section about needing to produce it at the office when buying a discounted ticket. If they can't follow this then they can't blame the ticket office for it.

How does presenting and buying a ticket at a booking office make any difference?
Your aware those on priv ticket will be staff? If they're getting all irate at being checked then it's indicative off the culture on the railways.