Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[43066]

I am bewildered by the perverse attitude being expressed in this thread that the railway industry should not take reasonable steps to reduce fare evasion and fraud; in particular, the idea that insisting on proof of status before selling tickets at a discount is somehow reprehensible. We have several threads in this forum about fare evasion with detailed first hand evidence of the kind of tricks that a rogue element gets up to. The railway today is in a period of financial crisis which threatens its future existence. This is exactly the right moment to crack down on fraud and if doing so drives away that rogue element, so much the better. Honest people do not object to being asked to prove their status and it's delusional to imagine they would shun the railway forever more if asked to do so.

I live in London and, because of my age, I have a Freedom Pass. That does not entitle me to turn up at a station without my pass and breezily declare "I'm entitled, I'm entitled" and just catch a train. I have to bring my Freedom Pass with me and if I don't, I can't travel. Being obliged to carry evidence is no imposition at all and I'm astonished that some posters think it is.

I’d agree with this. Similarly I’m expected to show a priv card when buying a priv ticket - it’s no great hardship and I’d fully expect to be refused service or sold a full price ticket if I couldn’t produce it.

 

[ar10642]

I’d agree with this. Similarly I’m expected to show a priv card when buying a priv ticket - it’s no great hardship and I’d fully expect to be refused service or sold a full price ticket if I couldn’t produce it.

OK, so I don't have my railcard for a journey I'm travelling on tomorrow, ticket clerk refuses the sale. So I just get my phone out, order it and then have an e-ticket or collect it from a TVM straight away. How is the ticket clerk refusing the sale protecting revenue in any meaningful way in this scenario?

And none of that has anything to do with the fact you have to bring the railcard on the day of travel, not the day of purchase, anyway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is a prime example of what Yorkie would call "false equivalence." When shops like Holland & Barrett ask for your postcode or email address, it's so they can check your true status on their computer. In other words it's not different from a ticket office clerk asking to see a passenger's Railcard.
Supermarkets' loyalty cards are different. They allow you to add points which will grant you a discount at a future date. By allowing customers to pay in full for their current purchase and later, on presentation of appropriate evidence, crediting points to that customer's card is completely different from a ticket office clerk asking for proof before selling a discounted ticket.

I am bewildered by the perverse attitude being expressed in this thread that the railway industry should not take reasonable steps to reduce fare evasion and fraud; in particular, the idea that insisting on proof of status before selling tickets at a discount is somehow reprehensible. We have several threads in this forum about fare evasion with detailed first hand evidence of the kind of tricks that a rogue element gets up to. The railway today is in a period of financial crisis which threatens its future existence. This is exactly the right moment to crack down on fraud and if doing so drives away that rogue element, so much the better. Honest people do not object to being asked to prove their status and it's delusional to imagine they would shun the railway forever more if asked to do so.

I live in London and, because of my age, I have a Freedom Pass. That does not entitle me to turn up at a station without my pass and breezily declare "I'm entitled, I'm entitled" and just catch a train. I have to bring my Freedom Pass with me and if I don't, I can't travel. Being obliged to carry evidence is no imposition at all and I'm astonished that some posters think it is.

There is another element at work here. Any system for processing people will have a high failure rate, whether it's an education system, a military system, a criminal justice system or whatever. That insisting on evidence of status inconveniences, even incommodes a small minority is not proof that the system is wrong, nor that it is highly flawed.

Unless I've missed it, noone has said on this thread that you should just turn up at a station say you're entitled to a discount and travel without proof. If I've missed that post please do quote it.
What people are saying on here is why can't I turn up at a station weeks in advance of travel and purchase railcard discount tickets and get the railcard much closer to the time of travel. There's not been one satisfactory answer to this! The only answers are jobsworth "the rules say they can" ones or bizarre "it saves the guards a job" ones-which is untrue as the guard doesn't know I have the railcard with me if I bought the tickets weeks ago!
I find it truly astonishing that people persist in arguing that the railway isn't making life difficult by upholding a pointless out of date rule. And I'll maintain that view till someone makes a valid argument otherwise, we're over 150 posts in and noone has yet!

 

[43066]

OK, so I don't have my railcard for a journey I'm travelling on tomorrow, ticket clerk refuses the sale. So I just get my phone out, order it and then have an e-ticket or collect it from a TVM straight away. How is the ticket clerk refusing the sale protecting revenue in any meaningful way in this scenario?

And none of that has anything to do with the fact you have to bring the railcard on the day of travel, not the day of purchase, anyway.

Why would you not just have it with you? The logic is that there’s a risk that people who ask for railcard discounts and don’t show it will likely use the railcard for incorrectly discounted travel. It’s just an additional check and balance.

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

 

[Deerfold]

This is a prime example of what Yorkie would call "false equivalence."

I live in London and, because of my age, I have a Freedom Pass. That does not entitle me to turn up at a station without my pass and breezily declare "I'm entitled, I'm entitled" and just catch a train. I have to bring my Freedom Pass with me and if I don't, I can't travel. Being obliged to carry evidence is no imposition at all and I'm astonished that some posters think it is.

This sounds like false equivalence. I'm all for people being checked when they travel. I'm arguing it's an inconvenience which doesn't help the railway with reducing fare evasion when people have to have their card (and that of everyone they're buying tickets for weeks earlier.

 

[ar10642]

Why would you not just have it with you? The logic is that there’s a risk that people who ask for railcard discounts and don’t show it will likely use the railcard for incorrectly discounted travel. It’s just an additional check and balance.

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

Well, in my case I might be at the supermarket which is right next to the station, and whilst I'm there think I'll save some time by getting tomorrow's ticket today, beat the queues. I don't bring my railcard because why would I bring my railcard to the supermarket?

It might be justified to want to see the railcard if you want to get a ticket for the next train, but not for advance tickets.

 

[Deerfold]

Why would you not just have it with you? The logic is that there’s a risk that people who ask for railcard discounts and don’t show it will likely use the railcard for incorrectly discounted travel. It’s just an additional check and balance.

You can typically buy an advance 3 months before you travel. Other tickets you can buy longer before. Should you have to buy a Railcard 3 months before you're going to use it, too?

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

This really doesn't follow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d agree with this. Similarly I’m expected to show a priv card when buying a priv ticket - it’s no great hardship and I’d fully expect to be refused service or sold a full price ticket if I couldn’t produce it.

The hardship is that unless you just keep a Railcard going all the time it actually costs you extra money to do this, not the fact that you have to show it.

Plus that it's inconsistent between sales channels. The rules should be the same at all sales channels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

Well, at least one operator thinks avoiding that is customer-friendly:

Self Check-in: Hop on. Check in. Relax.

If you have a mobile phone ticket and reservation, you can travel without having to present your ticket on board. All you have to do is get on, sit down at your reserved seat and check in.

www.bahn.com

Travel without ticket checks.​

Self Check-in: Hop on, check in, relax!

Benefits for you:​

• Relaxed travel without ticket checks
• It's so easy - use the DB Navigator app to check in and validate your ticket yourself
• The information is sent to the train attendant’s terminal, letting them know they don't need to check your ticket.

What you need:​

• Latest version of the DB Navigator app
• Mobile phone or online ticket for a saver fare or flexible fare ticket

Here's how it works:​

2. Open DB Navigator app, go to My tickets and select the ticket in question. If you booked your ticket on bahn.com, you can load your online ticket into the app under "my Tickets" (instructions).
4. Open the mobile phone ticket, then tap the Itinerary tab.
6. Use the Komfort Check-in (Self Check-in) button to confirm your seat choice and that you are starting your journey.
8. If you have not yet added your BahnCard to the DB Navigator app, enter your BahnCard number here.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Why would you not just have it with you? The logic is that there’s a risk that people who ask for railcard discounts and don’t show it will likely use the railcard for incorrectly discounted travel. It’s just an additional check and balance.

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

But you could just buy the same ticket at the TVM or on your phone with no check! It achieves nothing at all. Actually, that's not true, it achieves wasting the customers time and justifying not having ticket offices!

 

[Deerfold]

The hardship is that unless you just keep a Railcard going all the time it actually costs you extra money to do this, not the fact that you have to show it.

Plus that it's inconsistent between sales channels. The rules should be the same at all sales channels.

Also, if it's a Two Together or Family Railcard, it's possible it's in the wallet/purse of one person, but it's handier for their partner to buy the ticket (online railcards do help here, but not everyone has or likes these).

 

[Deafdoggie]

Also, if it's a Two Together or Family Railcard, it's possible it's in the wallet/purse of one person, but it's handier for their partner to buy the ticket (online railcards do help here, but not everyone has or likes these).

People on here would surely argue you'd both need to go anyway. Otherwise only one of you might travel!

 

[jthjth]

Why would you not just have it with you? The logic is that there’s a risk that people who ask for railcard discounts and don’t show it will likely use the railcard for incorrectly discounted travel. It’s just an additional check and balance.

You probably think you shouldn’t be expected to show a ticket and railcard at all?

There’s nothing wrong with being *requested* to show a railcard. Equally, the customer should be able to state that they haven’t got a railcard for all the various valid reasons mentioned up thread. Many users might be grateful for being reminded that they will need a railcard, and some might be saved from themselves when the ticket clerk points out that their card is/will be expired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s nothing wrong with being *requested* to show a railcard. Equally, the customer should be able to state that they haven’t got a railcard for all the various valid reasons mentioned up thread. Many users might be grateful for being reminded that they will need a railcard, and some might be saved from themselves when the ticket clerk points out that their card is/will be expired.

To be fair I was "caught" unwittingly travelling on an expired Railcard by a booking office years ago. While TOCs weren't prosecution-happy back then and the likely outcome would have just been a full priced ticket, it was handy, a bit like the way a gateline stops me unwittingly travelling having forgotten my ticket (which I've done in Switzerland where there are no gatelines, and that could have cost me nearly £100).

So yes, the customer friendly version is probably to ask for it but then accept any explanation of it not being there, e.g. the ticket being for someone else or it not being bought yet, but perhaps with a statement like "you could end up with a Penalty Fare or prosecuted if you forget, would you like to buy one now to make sure?"

 

[43066]

Well, in my case I might be at the supermarket which is right next to the station, and whilst I'm there think I'll save some time by getting tomorrow's ticket today, beat the queues. I don't bring my railcard because why would I bring my railcard to the supermarket?

It might be justified to want to see the railcard if you want to get a ticket for the next train, but not for advance tickets.

Of people asking for a ticket without a railcard, a higher % will be trying it on than have left it st home etc. It’s a minor inconvenience and I can see the logic for the rule albeit it has been slightly superseded by the fact railcard tickets can be bought on line.

It’s not something I’ve ever found remotely difficult despite (until very recently) not being able to buy privs online.

This really doesn't follow.

It seems to be a common attitude on this forum - “the customer is always right”, even when they on board a train with no ticket/the wrong ticket (and are committing a criminal offence)!

A high % of people doing this kind of thing on the railway are chancers / scummers who are trying it on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of people asking for a ticket without a railcard, a higher % will be trying it on than have left it st home etc. It’s a minor inconvenience and I can see the logic for the rule albeit it has been slightly superseded by the fact railcard tickets can be bought on line.

It’s not something I’ve ever found remotely difficult despite (until very recently) not being able to buy privs online.

If you're staff you have a priv all the time. That's not like Railcards where they only last 12 months.

 

[43066]

If you're staff you have a priv all the time. That's not like Railcards where they only last 12 months.

Presumably if you have railcard that expires in two months, and you’re buying tickets for travel in (say) three months, discretion can be shown to sell you them anyway on the basis you will renew your railcard?

It can’t be something that comes up very often.

In theory it could also arise with a priv as they are also issued with 12 month validity and reissued.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Unless I've missed it, noone has said on this thread that you should just turn up at a station say you're entitled to a discount and travel without proof. If I've missed that post please do quote it.
What people are saying on here is why can't I turn up at a station weeks in advance of travel and purchase railcard discount tickets and get the railcard much closer to the time of travel.

I suggest you read the post following yours. No-one buys a ticket without intending it to be used at some stage and railway staff have no guarantee that a passenger promising to obtain a railcard later will really do so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

Well, in my case I might be at the supermarket which is right next to the station, and whilst I'm there think I'll save some time by getting tomorrow's ticket today, beat the queues. I don't bring my railcard because why would I bring my railcard to the supermarket?

Because a railcard doesn't weigh much, carrying it is no hardship and having it with you gives you some flexibility!

 

[ar10642]

Of people asking for a ticket without a railcard, a higher % will be trying it on than have left it st home etc. It’s a minor inconvenience and I can see the logic for the rule albeit it has been slightly superseded by the fact railcard tickets can be bought on line.

It’s not something I’ve ever found remotely difficult despite (until very recently) not being able to buy privs online.

Someone who is trying it on will surely just go to a TVM as there is far less chance of getting caught.

It seems to be a common attitude on this forum - “the customer is always right”, even when they on board a train with no ticket/the wrong ticket (and are committing a criminal offence)!

It's really easy to accidentally buy a wrong ticket because the ticketing system is ridiculously complicated!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

This sounds like false equivalence. I'm all for people being checked when they travel. I'm arguing it's an inconvenience which doesn't help the railway with reducing fare evasion when people have to have their card (and that of everyone they're buying tickets for weeks earlier.

Why and how do you argue that it's an inconvenience to have your railcard with you? Again, this forum has numerous threads which contain posts which state that no checks are carried out to ensure that passengers have a valid ticket. The railway cannot afford to carry on with this situation. From now on they have to minimise every possibility for any kind of fare evasion and that includes non-valid fare discounts.

 

[ar10642]

Why and how do you argue that it's an inconvenience to have your railcard with you? Again, this forum has numerous threads which contain posts which state that no checks are carried out to ensure that passengers have a valid ticket. The railway cannot afford to carry on with this situation. From now on they have to minimise every possibility for any kind of fare evasion and that includes non-valid fare discounts.

Already covered. You could be passing the station and think "oh I'll get my ticket now" or you want to buy an advance but haven't bought the railcard yet.

And this "check" is so easy to get around it's pretty much pointless. It just makes ticket offices even less convenient than the alternatives.

 

[Jurg]

For the more hardline ticket office staff on here, a couple of questions based on a hypothetical situation:

I turn up at your ticket office asking to buy an off-peak return with Two Together railcard discount for outward travel today, for which the return portion is obviously valid within a calendar month.

You ask me to show the railcard. I pull a railcard out of my wallet. A picture of me and someone else, with an expiry date three weeks from now.

Do you require the other person on the railcard to present themselves at the ticket office?

Do you refuse to sell the ticket, as it could be used outside the validity of the railcard?

 

[Deerfold]

Why and how do you argue that it's an inconvenience to have your railcard with you? Again, this forum has numerous threads which contain posts which state that no checks are carried out to ensure that passengers have a valid ticket. The railway cannot afford to carry on with this situation. From now on they have to minimise every possibility for any kind of fare evasion and that includes non-valid fare discounts.

I've already mentioned that you may then have to buy a Railcard 3 months before you want to use it or the other named user of the card is carrying it.

I used to conciously try to buy tickets at stations to support ticket offices, but so many have made it clear I'm an inconvenience, I no longer do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably if you have railcard that expires in two months, and you’re buying tickets for travel in (say) three months, discretion can be shown to sell you them anyway on the basis you will renew your railcard?

It can’t be something that comes up very often.

In theory it could also arise with a priv as they are also issued with 12 month validity and reissued.

Not everyone maintains Railcard validity constantly. I bet it comes up a lot. Well, it probably doesn't now because fewer and fewer people use booking offices because online purchase is much more convenient, but I bet it did.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

I used to conciously try to buy tickets at stations to support ticket offices, but so many have made it clear I'm an inconvenience, I no longer do.

In my experience booking offices have always been rather variable, but they've definitely got worse, while online purchase has got better and continues to do so, with things like seat selection.

 

[Fokx]

Most stores will allow an old receipt barcode to be scanned to add the points. Will the railway refund if you send in images of your railcard and tickets?

Yes.

The forgotten railcard policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

If you're staff you have a priv all the time. That's not like Railcards where they only last 12 months.

Not if you leave the job

Priv only lasts 12-14 months

 

[43066]

Someone who is trying it on will surely just go to a TVM as there is far less chance of getting caught.

Yep it probably made more sense historically. Perhaps it shouldn’t be possible to buy a railcard discounted ticket online either unless you can type in the serial number or something. Presumably that isn’t workable because there are so many types of railcard available. This still wouldn’t really deal with buying the tickets several months in advance before the railcard is valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not if you leave the job

Priv only lasts 12-14 months

Indeed, but that's different, as it could create a situation where you can show the Priv at the time of booking but not the time of use.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suggest you read the post following yours. No-one buys a ticket without intending it to be used at some stage and railway staff have no guarantee that a passenger promising to obtain a railcard later will really do so.

Noone would buy a ticket without intending to use it, few people (if any) would buy a railcard discount at a ticket office if they didn't intend to buy a railcard. Anyone buying a railcard discount and not intending to buy a railcard would buy online. I have no idea what point you're trying to make?
My point is that insisting on having a railcard weeks ahead of travel isn't making it easier for a passenger and I've seen no coherent argument to say it is.

 

[43096]

Surely the answer is for the ticket office to ask to see the railcard if it’s for immediate travel and to remind the customer if it’s for future travel with a cheerful “Don’t forget, you’ll need your railcard with you when you travel.” Never know, they might even sell said railcard as a result.

How hard can it be?

 

[Dai Corner]

What would happen if someone attempted to buy a railcard discounted ticket in advance at a ticket office and says he doesn't have one but will buy one before the date of travel?

Has anyone here tried it?

 

[Deerfold]

What would happen if someone attempted to buy a railcard discounted ticket in advance at a ticket office and says he doesn't have one but will buy one before the date of travel?

Has anyone here tried it?

I've been unsuccessful several years ago when trying to buy Family Railcard tickets when my sister in law had the Railcard (the children on it were hers so she was more likely to use it for local journeys, I was more likely to buy tickets to take her and my nephews away). I went home and bought them online.