Does a chargeback to retailer get passed on to the TOC?

[Egg Centric]

In another thread it's being advised that "against a TOC" a chargeback may be less agro and more effective than more formal processes.

If you do do this does the TOC actually "suffer" or is it all on the retailer?

 

[gordonthemoron]

You, or rather your bank, can only issue a chargeback against the retailer

 

[Egg Centric]

You, or rather your bank, can only issue a chargeback against the retailer

I'm aware of that, but can the retailer "pass on" the portion of it aside from their cut (in which case this might at least en aggregate incentivise decent TOC behaviour) or does retailer have to eat the entire amount (in which case TOC is happy, consumer is miffed, and retailer is very sad)

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The retailer eats the chargeback. It would be for the retailer to consider what, if any, recovery action can be taken against the TOC.

However, the retailer enters into these contracts on behalf of the TOCs, and is therefore their agent - so ultimately that's part of being a rail retailer.

I did say that before making a Chargeback, you need to enter into dialogue to resolve the matter first. You'd hope a reputable third party retailer would support you enough that a chargeback is not necessary.

That said, the third party retailer doesn't have to deal with you ever again after a chargeback. If you make one on Trainline, or a TOC using a Trainline platform, you are normally banned from future sales across all of their sites, no matter how righteous the claim.

 

[gray1404]

The retailer eats the chargeback. It would be for the retailer to consider what, if any, recovery action can be taken against the TOC.

However, the retailer enters into these contracts on behalf of the TOCs, and is therefore their agent - so ultimately that's part of being a rail retailer.

I did say that before making a Chargeback, you need to enter into dialogue to resolve the matter first. You'd hope a reputable third party retailer would support you enough that a chargeback is not necessary.

That said, the third party retailer doesn't have to deal with you ever again after a chargeback. If you make one on Trainline, or a TOC using a Trainline platform, you are normally banned from future sales across all of their sites, no matter how righteous the claim.

On the topic of chargebacks, once one has been raised and the bank has placed the money back in my account on a provisional basis and stated the process, how long until you know you can keep the money for certain? @Tazi Hupefi

I started such a charge back against a retailer of a train ticket and the money was placed back into my account by the bank on 1 September 2023. I've heard nothing further to date.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

On the topic of chargebacks, once one has been raised and the bank has placed the money back in my account on a provisional basis and stated the process, how long until you know you can keep the money for certain? @Tazi Hupefi

I started such a charge back against a retailer of a train ticket and the money was placed back into my account by the bank on 1 September 2023. I've heard nothing further to date.

If it's over a year, you're fine. In theory the retailer has 6 years to come after you, if they believe you owe them money, but realistically they aren't going to, especially for minor amounts (minor in the context of a large business means a few hundred).

Normally takes a few months at the very most.

 

[PeterC]

My card issuer demands evidence that you have attempted to resolve the dispute direct before implementing a charge back.

 

[MrJeeves]

My card issuer demands evidence that you have attempted to resolve the dispute direct before implementing a charge back.

It's likely that evidence isn't even reviewed and is simply passed onto the payment processor for the business whose transaction is disputed to review anyway.

 

[gray1404]

If it's over a year, you're fine. In theory the retailer has 6 years to come after you, if they believe you owe them money, but realistically they aren't going to, especially for minor amounts (minor in the context of a large business means a few hundred).

Normally takes a few months at the very most.

Thank you. It's just under £400 and over a year now.

 

[Somewhere]

I'm aware of that, but can the retailer "pass on" the portion of it aside from their cut (in which case this might at least en aggregate incentivise decent TOC behaviour) or does retailer have to eat the entire amount (in which case TOC is happy, consumer is miffed, and retailer is very sad)

That would be like you doing a chargeback to Sainsbury's, and Sainsbury's then passing it onto Heinz

 

[soil]

That would be like you doing a chargeback to Sainsbury's, and Sainsbury's then passing it onto Heinz

No.
As already explained, the retailer is a mere agent. When you buy something in Sainsburys your contract is with Sainsburys and not Heinz. However, for tickets, the contract is with the TOC/airline/etc. That means that when your train is late your complaint is with the TOC, not the seller of the ticket. This is different from getting bad baked beans from Sainsburys, where you'd complain to Sainsburys.

For businesses selling tickets, they get a commission from the actual provider of the service. It's perfectly possible for the businesses to agree between themselves that the agent can recover chargebacked amounts, though in practice this probably won't happen.

Here you can see a case where the agent (for air tickets) sued the customer for charging back, and, rightly, won - the agent had done nothing wrong, but the ignorant /lazy customer ignored the true nature of the transaction.

Court rules in favour of agent over chargeback

Industry lawyer highlights value of contesting ‘erroneous’ refund claims

travelweekly.co.uk

 

[BlueLeanie]

That would be like you doing a chargeback to Sainsbury's, and Sainsbury's then passing it onto Heinz

What do you think happens when you notify Sainsbury's that goods that they supplied were faulty? They pass the cost back onto the supplier! If you return something as faulty to Argos (subsidiary of Sainsbury's), not only will they charge back to the supplier, but from memory they also place a financial penalty on the supplier too.

However, never forget that a ticketing agent is called an agent for a very good reason. The reason why they are called an agent, is because they are an agent and there is a very specific section of law dealing with the law of agency!

It's far more complicated than this, but essentially:-

Principal’s liability for acts of agent​

A principal is normally liable for all acts of an agent within the agent’s authority, whether responsibility arises in contract or in tort. Authority means the agent’s actual, apparent (ostensible) or usual (customary) authority.

Law of agency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No.
As already explained, the retailer is a mere agent. When you buy something in Sainsburys your contract is with Sainsburys and not Heinz. However, for tickets, the contract is with the TOC/airline/etc. That means that when your train is late your complaint is with the TOC, not the seller of the ticket. This is different from getting bad baked beans from Sainsburys, where you'd complain to Sainsburys.

For businesses selling tickets, they get a commission from the actual provider of the service. It's perfectly possible for the businesses to agree between themselves that the agent can recover chargebacked amounts, though in practice this probably won't happen.

Here you can see a case where the agent (for air tickets) sued the customer for charging back, and, rightly, won - the agent had done nothing wrong, but the ignorant /lazy customer ignored the true nature of the transaction.

Court rules in favour of agent over chargeback

Industry lawyer highlights value of contesting ‘erroneous’ refund claims

travelweekly.co.uk

In this case I'm not sure why the bank charged back the wrong Merchant. When you buy airline tickets, it's almost always the case that the airline will take the charge directly from you - and they did in this case.

 

[Haywain]

What do you think happens when you notify Sainsbury's that goods that they supplied were faulty? They pass the cost back onto the supplier!

That may be the case but they are two entirely separate contracts. Sainsbury's buys from Heinz, and you buy from Sainsbury's. With a rail ticket you buy from the retailer but form a contract with the train operator. The likes of Trainline and Trainsplit do not at any time buy their inventory from the train companies.

 

[BlueLeanie]

That may be the case but they are two entirely separate contracts. Sainsbury's buys from Heinz, and you buy from Sainsbury's. With a rail ticket you buy from the retailer but form a contract with the train operator. The likes of Trainline and Trainsplit do not at any time buy their inventory from the train companies.

We've just done this. Use the correct terminology.

You buy the ticket from the Agent.

 

[Haywain]

You buy the ticket from the Agent.

Although popularly known in these circles as retailers, because the train companies offer the exact same service and are definitely not agents.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Third Party Retailers are Third Party Retailers are they not?

 

[jon81uk]

If it's over a year, you're fine. In theory the retailer has 6 years to come after you, if they believe you owe them money, but realistically they aren't going to, especially for minor amounts (minor in the context of a large business means a few hundred).

Normally takes a few months at the very most.

There has been examples of Ryanair seeking to reclaim debts by preventing people flying in the future, effectively taking the fare paid for a new flight as paymnt against the debt caused by chargeback. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...-chargeback-or-you-can-t-board-your-upcoming/

Don't think many other companies have done that sort of thing, but I've read other stories of companies going after people with debt collectors following a chargeback.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Although popularly known in these circles as retailers, because the train companies offer the exact same service and are definitely not agents.

Third Party Retailers are Third Party Retailers are they not?

Trainline tells us... They are Agents

Trainline retails tickets as an official agent on behalf of train, coach and bus operators (the operators), but we don’t run these services ourselves. Trainline provides you with a booking service that allows you to purchase these tickets from Trainline on behalf of the operators. When you book a ticket with us, the relevant operator's terms and conditions will also apply to you (in addition to our Terms and Conditions)

Trainpal tells us... They are Agents

1. INFORMATION ABOUT US AND HOW TO CONTACT US

1.1. We are TrainPal, an online travel agent registered in Netherlands as Trainpal B.V., (“we”, “our” or “us”). Our office in Netherlands is at Hoekenrode 3, 1102 BR Amsterdam.

1.2. You can contact us via the TrainPal app or website or by writing to us at [email protected] or Trip.com, First Floor, One Lochrin Square, 92 Fountainbridge, Edinburgh, EH3 9QA.

So we have the actual, companies, clearly stating on their sites the important legal fact that they are Agents.

And as we know, companies like Scotrail, CrossCountry, Greater Anglia, Northern, and others outsource their online sales to Trainline! Who are a Ticket Agent!

 

[yorkie]

In another thread it's being advised that "against a TOC" a chargeback may be less agro and more effective than more formal processes.

If you do do this does the TOC actually "suffer" or is it all on the retailer?

No. If anyone is considering doing this, don't use our ticketing site!