Does anybody not fly?

[Citybreak1]

I stopped flying a few years ago as I prefer the train just wondering if anybody else prefers the boat or train? Does anybody here travel round Europe without flying? I have never been able to fly long haul. I once flew to Berlin but my goal is to visit it by rail this year.

 

[The exile]

I would love to abandon flights, but until there are affordable overnight services linking the UK and Europe (and I don’t just mean London - Brussels and Paris) it’s just not viable.

 

[Citybreak1]

I would love to abandon flights, but until there are affordable overnight services linking the UK and Europe (and I don’t just mean London - Brussels and Paris) it’s just not viable.

Yes cost is an issue I think it costs me about 3x more to do my travel by train. Eurostar is expensive last minute including ex Thalys services and cost to make any changes to the journey. I wish there was some sort of through tickets to Germany. But my reason is I don’t find flights very pleasant but maybe other people have issues like climate change ect. I know some people who have a fear of tunnels so can’t take the train.

 

[1D54]

Interesting thread and looking forward to replies. I stopped long haul flying a few years ago and was seriously considering doing trips to Europe by rail, starting one way and taking a cheap flight back but it never happened. Flying is a necessity with me for times and prices.

 

[JGurney]

I stopped flying a few years ago as I prefer the train just wondering if anybody else prefers the boat or train? Does anybody here travel round Europe without flying? I have never been able to fly long haul. I once flew to Berlin but my goal is to visit it by rail this year.

We don't.
Our last two summer hols were in Austria via rail and sea.
This summer will be our third time going to Greece without flying.
Also been to Ajaccio, Corsica (back when Eurostar did a through service to Marseille) and various places in Germany and Italy.

 

[Gloster]

I haven’t flown since I was six-years old in 1966. For many years it was partly because I disliked the feeling of helplessness that I am quite sure that I would feel in an aircraft. More recently I have become fatalistic about the helplessness, but I consider flying to be environmental vandalism of the worst sort. A second factor is that I like looking out of the window as the countryside passes, even on short journeys that I make frequently.

 

[Magdalia]

I haven't flown for at least 15 years, though all travel abroad has ceased now. I did a few long haul trips by air, and most of my other leisure flights were on journeys difficult to by train, such as Ireland and Scandinavia. I did fly a few times for work in the 1990s.

Once the Channel Tunnel opened nearly all of my leisure journeys to Western Europe were by train. For the longer journeys I usually stayed overnight at Koln on the outward journey (when the clocks go forward an hour) but tried to do the return journeys all in one day (when the clocks go back an hour). If the return journey was too long to complete in a day then I did a sleeper to Paris for a mid morning Eurostar to London.

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't be able to do as many trips as I do if I didn't fly. A weekend away in Málaga, for example, is just a total non-starter by train. So I'm afraid to say I am a fairly frequent flyer, with around 30 trips and 100 flights a year.

If I had the time, I'd generally prefer using the train on environmental grounds. But even then, Eurostar, SNCF, Renfe, Trenitalia etc. seriously undermine the attractiveness of the train, with (on the whole) high prices, compulsory reservations, poor connections and security theatre. Essentially they take all of the worst parts about flying and make it more expensive and less convenient!

 

[RT4038]

I stopped flying a few years ago as I prefer the train just wondering if anybody else prefers the boat or train? Does anybody here travel round Europe without flying? I have never been able to fly long haul. I once flew to Berlin but my goal is to visit it by rail this year.

I think there is a difference between preferring boat or train, and never flying. I prefer to use trains to travel to and around Europe, and indeed do so quite regularly. However, I also have to take into account family preferences who are not so keen to lose such a proportion of their holiday to travelling overland, so when travelling with family can usually only get away with one direction overland. Went to Morocco earlier this year by train and a short boat trip - took half the holiday and for one reason or another much more stressful than the flight back, no matter how unpleasant I find flying. And for trips to South Africa and other long haul destinations, surface travel is pretty impractical due to time taken and cost. (not that I haven't done a bit....)

 

[atillathehunn]

I'm not a frequent flier, typically about 40 per year. This year has been a bit slower, up to 20 at the beginning of June. I've also taken three Red Eurostar and one white Eurostar trips this year - three for business, one for leisure.

For much of my work travel, the train is not feasible - I'm going to East Africa in a couple of days, which is not feasible by train and it's not feasible to do the work remotely.

Some institutions in my field put bars on staff using planes when the train alternative was below some number of hours that I've forgotten. However, I spoke to a colleague who did that to go to Copenhagen and the journey ended up taking a day and a half due to strikes and engineering works. They will not be doing that again.

Neither my partner or I live in our country of origin, so VFR is 10-12 flights a year. Both journeys we would need to make are technically feasible within a day. We've done the journey to the UK by train, which is quite OK, but often four or five times more expensive than flights, including all getting to airport/station costs. The leg within the UK is also too unreliable for comfort.

The journey south to my partner's country is an entire day, with an unappealing number of changes. The journey is such that if you miss one of those connections, you are done for the day. You'll need to spend a night. It's very difficult to get the journey priced up properly, and difficult to understand the consumer protection rules in place in the event of disruption etc.

For within Europe travel, some routes are a no-brainer by train - our recent work and leisure trips to Paris are testament to that. But it's limited to a number of core, usually capitals, city pair. But even then, the train company fell short. Our Red Thalys ended up starting short at Brussels, which wasn't communicated to us (we only noticed on the board) and nobody knew at all what to do. A poor showing.

But for further afield, ticketing needs to be improved, including cross-border/operator ticketing, consumer protection needs improving, information needs improving and journey modification in the event of IRROPs needs improving. The final issue is security, especially on overnight or late-arrivals. Some stations are really unappealing or uninviting places to spend time, especially after dark. Some cities, like Milan, have made efforts to make the station a better place. Very visible staff presence, and the Mercato offering excellent food options quickly. That being said, the area immediately outside the station leaves a huge amount to be desired.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I haven't flown since the Channel Tunnel opened!

 

[Essan]

Haven't flown anywhere since 1982 (family holiday to Malta). I doubt I ever will again. But on the other hand, I don't (and have no desire to) travel abroad.

 

[Killingworth]

My cousin travels to Europe by coach or train several times a year and hasn't flown since the 60s. Has a totally illogical fear of flying, but quite happy with alternatves.

 

[Iskra]

I’ve driven to Southern Italy from Sheffield, got the train all the way from Sheffield to Southern Italy and crossed the USA by rail. I prefer not to fly but it’s rarely cost effective or an effective use of my annual leave. The train isn’t so bad as you can see the scenery properly but long distance driving is no fun just staring at tarmac for x days.

 

[Leven Railuser]

I'd love to abandon it, but being in Scotland, surface transport into Europe is neither easy, or affordable. If anyone knows different, please let me know!

Doing multistop tours with Europe is really enjoyable though, bookended with the inevitable Ryanair or Easyjet service in and out of Edinburgh.
My favourite one in recent years was a tour of Scandinavia, with an overnight ferry from Oslo into Copenhagen.
From there some time spent in Copenhagen (gorgeous, but expensive!) and taking the train into Sweden across the Øresund Bridge.

 

[mike57]

I have flown in the past on business, but my wife is absolutely petrified of flying, so I would only now fly on business trips, which currently isnt required. All leisure journeys are completed by land transport. We use Eurostar for holidays in Europe and find plenty of holiday options using the train. We neither of us like 'beach' holidays or heat. but that still leaves plenty of options. I dont feel confident driving on the continent unless its a quiet area, so train and maybe hire a car if we are visiting a rural location. Happy wife = happy life, and this equation would breakdown if holidays included flying.

 

[deltic]

I try not to fly, for either business or pleasure in Europe. I have travelled to the Netherlands by rail sail and by ferry to Belfast for work. The latter I could get away with as it was just after COVID lockdown and there were few flights anyway. With interrail tickets I have combined work and holiday trips to the Baltic States and Turkey. Trips have worked out no more expensive than flying.

 

[Calthrop]

I haven’t flown since I was six-years old in 1966. For many years it was partly because I disliked the feeling of helplessness that I am quite sure that I would feel in an aircraft. More recently I have become fatalistic about the helplessness, but I consider flying to be environmental vandalism of the worst sort. A second factor is that I like looking out of the window as the countryside passes, even on short journeys that I make frequently.

My post here, not hugely relevant: however -- have done a fair amount of flying, in my relatively-modest lifetime travels: find the overall experience not delightful, but not scary (this, "just me"). Flying can be, often, highly expeditious / in personal circumstances, only way to get to-and-from where one wants to.

@Gloster, agree with you in principle, about the "environmental vandalism"; I'm one of the regrettably many who consider re that scene, that "we're 'all doomed' -- may as well relish what fun we can, on our highway to hell". I "get you", as regards enjoying the passing scene out of the window: for sure, on the large majority of air journeys, this can't -- for more than one reason -- be done; but on rare occasions, having a window seat plus cloud-free conditions, can give a -- for me -- wonderful and magical experience.

 

[Citybreak1]

I'd love to abandon it, but being in Scotland, surface transport into Europe is neither easy, or affordable. If anyone knows different, please let me know!

Doing multistop tours with Europe is really enjoyable though, bookended with the inevitable Ryanair or Easyjet service in and out of Edinburgh.
My favourite one in recent years was a tour of Scandinavia, with an overnight ferry from Oslo into Copenhagen.
From there some time spent in Copenhagen (gorgeous, but expensive!) and taking the train into Sweden across the Øresund Bridge.

I’m in Scotland too so any travel by includes a 4 hour trip to London. Sometimes I travel Eurostar same day or go a day visit.

 

[GardenRail]

I do fly, a lot. Because living in Northern England, rail really isn't convenient for Europe. I have used EuroStar, but mainly for novelty value. I'd sooner have two days extra on holiday at my destination than travel all day. Any hope I once had of maybe using rail more, was put to bed when the EuroStar was 10 mins late arriving Brussels, and missed my onward connections to Munich. Plane every time now.

 

[takno]

I pretty much gave up flying before Covid, and did a couple of lengthy tours around Europe entirely by train and coach. While I had the leisure time to do long trips (and I live in Scotland, so every land trip to Europe is a long trip), I really enjoyed it, and didn't find the prices too awful, but I was doing a combination of shortish hops some days and an Interail pass on others.

Since I now need to be in Devon and London every couple of months, and I'm finding it difficult-verging-on-impossible to book reasonably-priced reliable UK train travel, I've pretty much given up completely. I'll be on 10 flights this year by the end of the month, and I suspect it will be 30 by the year end. it really doesn't help that I can sometimes go to London via Oslo or Copenhagen for less than a direct train, and have a nice couple of days away in the process.

I do wonder if I'd have been able to keep up the train travel if I lived even as far south as Yorkshire.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do fly, a lot. Because living in Northern England, rail really isn't convenient for Europe. I have used EuroStar, but mainly for novelty value. I'd sooner have two days extra on holiday at my destination than travel all day. Any hope I once had of maybe using rail more, was put to bed when the EuroStar was 10 mins late arriving Brussels, and missed my onward connections to Munich. Plane every time now.

I think this will reflect the feelings of a lot of travellers. Yes rail options will be popular on these forums, but even somewhere like Paris from the north of England adds in more time than you'd need to fly including security and immigration checks at each end. Go further afield the time travelling spirals, so whilst it might not be terrible for a solo traveller, throw in a family and all the stress of planning / making decisions, then booking through a holiday company, turning up at the airport and leaving the rest to them is a very favourable option.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Living on a small island, I fly a lot. In the summer the ferry is an option if I’m going to northern England- the fast cat Manannan takes 3 hours to Liverpool, it drops you right in the city centre, and once you’ve added the fannying around at the airport time and the shuttle bus to the city centre time to the flight time, the boat is very competitive both on time and price. But in the winter, when it takes 4 hours to Heysham and it’s then a very awkward onward journey from there, flying is an absolute no-brainer.

Flying is unavoidable for a lot of travel. The fastest high speed rail will cruise at 200mph or so, which is impressive, but an Airbus will cruise at over 500mph. When it’s over 1000 miles from, say, London to Berlin, flying becomes the obvious choice.

Flying isn’t going anywhere, so from a climate change perspective the challenge is to reduce emissions from flying and not try and force people on to other options.

 

[WestCoast]

I think this will reflect the feelings of a lot of travellers. Yes rail options will be popular on these forums, but even somewhere like Paris from the north of England adds in more time than you'd need to fly including security and immigration checks at each end. Go further afield the time travelling spirals, so whilst it might not be terrible for a solo traveller, throw in a family and all the stress of planning / making decisions, then booking through a holiday company, turning up at the airport and leaving the rest to them is a very favourable option.

Yes I concur. The further you are from St Pancras the less appealing rail to the continent gets even to someone who loves travelling that way. My last trip from Glasgow to Rotterdam, my Avanti service into Euston was 70 minutes late resulting in a very stressful experience even with more than two hours connection time. I had to charm Eurostar staff to let me through after their check in closed. Flying direct followed by the train would have been quicker, cheaper and more pleasant.

 

[D7666]

Taking the question literally - no, I do not fly , as yet I have not mastered self propelled flight.

WRT being a passenger on an aircraft then yes - there are all those thousands of numbers to underline for haulage Is there any other reason needed to fly ....... 638 flights on 401 aircraft and still counting

 

[atillathehunn]

I’ve driven to Southern Italy from Sheffield, got the train all the way from Sheffield to Southern Italy and crossed the USA by rail. I prefer not to fly but it’s rarely cost effective or an effective use of my annual leave. The train isn’t so bad as you can see the scenery properly but long distance driving is no fun just staring at tarmac for x days.

The use of annual leave point here is a good one.

While the wealthiest 'consume' a disproportionate number of flights, they still don't make up the majority of passengers. People living and working away from their home countries or their families is very high, to do jobs we all depend on (look at the number of those of non-British origin that work in the NHS, for example). It is only logical in the face of very limited annual leave to use the fastest means of transportation.

Similarly, people wanting a simple family holiday in the sun after our bleak northern European winters are faced with the same decision.

The relevance of train travel is also quite narrow. Not just in the sense that it only really makes sense for journeys of up to four hours, but also the reliability, accessibility and density of railway shrinks rapidly outside of Western Europe.

 

[Killingworth]

Confession time, I've just returned from Norway by air. 60 years ago when I first visited that country it was by ship from Newcastle, the normal way for most to get there in those days, all but impossible now.

We used very efficient and well filled trains in Norway and the Elizabeth line from Heathrow through London - rammed full after midnight.

Travel generally is both increasingly popular and possible, despite how much we grouse about high fares and other inconveniences.

Should we all be travelling as much? Are all our journey's really necessary, particularly by air? No and no! But most of us will carry on travelling and using aircraft whenever it's convenient to do so.

Conscience now troubling, I'll stay off planes for the rest of the year.

 

[blackfive460]

I love to fly, that's the bit from taking off to landing but the lack of useful routes at sensible times from my nearest airport and the general, often horrendous airport experience means that I haven't flown since before Covid.
I used to fly to somewhere distant; Budapest; Rome; etc., then work my way back by rail.
It's surprising how far you can travel in a reasonable day by train when returning to the Uk (thanks to gaining an hour crossing the Channel). Geneva to Yorkshire was quite easy and I had a trip planned to get back from Italy in the day but Covid put the mockers on that!
Going into Europe by train, aside from Paris or Brussels isn't so good. From where I live I can just about get into Germany (Aachen) but it's a long day and the very conveniently timed daily flight to Düsseldorf was much easier. Sadly that went when Flybe went under and no other carrier at my nearest airport seems interested in Deutschland!

 

[GardenRail]

Yes I concur. The further you are from St Pancras the less appealing rail to the continent gets even to someone who loves travelling that way. My last trip from Glasgow to Rotterdam, my Avanti service into Euston was 70 minutes late resulting in a very stressful experience even with more than two hours connection time. I had to charm Eurostar staff to let me through after their check in closed. Flying direct followed by the train would have been quicker, cheaper and more pleasant.

Must be equally discouraging for Southerners too, now Ebbsfleet is not a thing anymore.

 

[takno]

Confession time, I've just returned from Norway by air. 60 years ago when I first visited that country it was by ship from Newcastle, the normal way for most to get there in those days, all but impossible now.

We used very efficient and well filled trains in Norway and the Elizabeth line from Heathrow through London - rammed full after midnight.

Travel generally is both increasingly popular and possible, despite how much we grouse about high fares and other inconveniences.

Should we all be travelling as much? Are all our journey's really necessary, particularly by air? No and no! But most of us will carry on travelling and using aircraft whenever it's convenient to do so.

Conscience now troubling, I'll stay off planes for the rest of the year.

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Honestly if I could get a ferry from Edinburgh or even Newcastle to Stavanger, Bergen or Kristiansand I'd strongly consider it. I'd be extremely surprised if they could make it pay these days though. I would love to see Scotgov explore bringing back the Zeebrugge route though, or exploring the possibility of extending the Newcastle-Amsterdam route to Edinburgh - would add a lot more value to my life than a subsidised but still unaffordable sleeper to London.