Does LU stock get allocated TOPS numbers when running on Network Rail infrastructure?

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Steddenm

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When LUL stock operates on the NR network, ie between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone and also on the Chiltern Mainline, are the units given TOPS numbers?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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If I remember correctly, the 1972 Stock are allocated class 499/2 on TOPS, and the S Stock is class 499/5.
 

philthetube

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slightly pedantic but the S Stock does not operate on the Chiltern main line, Chiltern operate on LUL lines, however District line S Stock does operate on Network rail metals.
 

CarrotPie

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C69/77: 499/0 for East Putney to Wimbledon
D78: 499/1 for Gunnersbury to Richmond
1972 Stock: 499/2 for Queen's Park to Harrow and Wealdstone
1996 Stock: 499/3
1996 Stock: 499/4
S7: 499/5 for East Putney to Wimbledon & Gunnersbury to Richmond

S8 (Met line stock) doesn't have a number beacuse, as said previously, they don't run on NR metals. Nothing on S7+1s though!
This document has everything about it and more:
 

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Egg Centric

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Additional info (speaking authoritatively from my experience playing Watford DC on SimSig) that may be of interest is that signalling wise the trains retain their LU headcodes, i.e. are still e.g. S203 rather than 2E32 or something.
 

Dstock7080

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Wimbledon SCC controlling trains from East Putney-Wimbledon on the LU infrastructure, uses ‘2Cxx’ and ‘2Exx’ to denote City and Edgware Road trains, the last two numbers being the LU set number.
So LU train 075 would be 2E75 operating to/from Edgware Road
 
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CarrotPie

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Additional info (speaking authoritatively from my experience playing Watford DC on SimSig) that may be of interest is that signalling wise the trains retain their LU headcodes, i.e. are still e.g. S203 rather than 2E32 or something.

I remember those days! Sigh...
Too busy with Oxted now!
 

bluegoblin7

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Additional info (speaking authoritatively from my experience playing Watford DC on SimSig) that may be of interest is that signalling wise the trains retain their LU headcodes, i.e. are still e.g. S203 rather than 2E32 or something.

Playing SimSig (a game) doesn't give you an 'authoritative' view on this - there are plenty of concessions made to the LUL areas where these exist.

On the Bakerloo line only, trains retain their LUL identities, prefixed by a letter (never S) corresponding to destination.

On the District line, as already mentioned, trains receive standard 4-character NR headcodes, generally corresponding to the last two digits of the LUL train number. This, however, is not a hard and fast rule, with out of turn running often seeing trains simply being assigned the 'next' scheduled headcode.

For clarity, the Met is exclusively LUL infrastructure; Chiltern units retain their NR headcodes over the Met line.

Source: actually working on the actual real railway as an Instructor Signaller for LUL, not a game.
 
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Egg Centric

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Playing SimSig (a game) doesn't give you an 'authoritative' view on this - there are plenty of concessions made to the LUL areas where these exist.

I would have thought the sarcasm was pretty obvious :D

Still that is interesting to know, ta. I suppose there is also the opposite question - does LUL have any equivalent to TOPS and are Chiltern in it?
 

Mothball

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Do the battery/schoma locos have TOPS codes? My understanding is they can and often do travel to work sites outside of possessions that could see them routed over NR metals
 
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Playing SimSig (a game) doesn't give you an 'authoritative' view on this - there are plenty of concessions made to the LUL areas where these exist.

On the Bakerloo line only, trains retain their LUL identities, prefixed by a letter (never S) corresponding to destination.
Can I ask whether the train reporting numbers quoted on Realtime Trains for Bakerloo trains on the Watford DC are correct in the operational world?

These are given on RTT as 2Axx (e.g. 2A12) for services to E&C, and northbound 2Jxx for H&W and 2Ixx for Stonebridge Park.
 

Class253

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Can I ask whether the train reporting numbers quoted on Realtime Trains for Bakerloo trains on the Watford DC are correct in the operational world?

These are given on RTT as 2Axx (e.g. 2A12) for services to E&C, and northbound 2Jxx for H&W and 2Ixx for Stonebridge Park.
I would suspect that this is the Prefix code and train number rearranged with the destination code in the second digit position surrounded by the parts of the train number which on the Bakerloo are in the 2xx series
 

popeter45

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Why do the 1996 stock have a classification?
I assume it was assigned back when the idea of extending the jubilee line to Lewisham and Hayes was still on the table as part of the original extension plans

Speaking of I wonder what code the new deep level stock will be assigned, one block of 499/6 or would different lines have different codes even if they never venture into NR tracks
 

CarrotPie

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I assume it was assigned back when the idea of extending the jubilee line to Lewisham and Hayes was still on the table as part of the original extension plans

Speaking of I wonder what code the new deep level stock will be assigned, one block of 499/6 or would different lines have different codes even if they never venture into NR tracks
Ooh yes! That could be why! Won't there be more than 99 Deep Tube stock though? Because then we'll end up with a Class 720 situation.
 

bluegoblin7

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Can I ask whether the train reporting numbers quoted on Realtime Trains for Bakerloo trains on the Watford DC are correct in the operational world?

These are given on RTT as 2Axx (e.g. 2A12) for services to E&C, and northbound 2Jxx for H&W and 2Ixx for Stonebridge Park.

As above, the number and character are transposed. 2A12 would be southbound train 212 to Elephant.

Worth saying the system still isn't infallible in the event of disruption/reformation/diversions. NR Train Describers really aren't set up to handle the LUL way of train numbering.
 

swt_passenger

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This discussion has appeared a few times over the years, (and similarly for Tyne Wear Metro on NR), but AFAICS the original question has never been answered. Threads always get into the TOPS class numbers used by these visitors - and the train reporting numbers (headcodes) used by the signalling system.

Now, AIUI for trains/units running on NR someone can query a train reporting number, and somehow between TRUST and TOPS or whatever database they can find out the unit number, loco number, carriages, freight consist etc etc.

But what do you actually get if querying an LU (or TWM) service? If we return to the first question, it was “are the units given TOPS numbers”. Let’s assume that really meant “are the units given individual TOPS numbers”.

I think we know most of these visiting units don't carry TOPS style 6 digit painted numbers - do they even exist? Do NR systems even need to know?
 
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Class253

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I think we know most of these visiting units don't carry painted numbers - do they even exist?
I assume you mean NR style TOPs numbers as all LU trains carry painted numbers which identify them as an individual coach/half set
 

Lewlew

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This discussion has appeared a few times over the years, (and similarly for Tyne Wear Metro on NR), but AFAICS the original question has never been answered. Threads always get into the TOPS class numbers used by these visitors - and the train reporting numbers (headcodes) used by the signalling system.

Now, AIUI for trains/units running on NR someone can query a train reporting number, and somehow between TRUST and TOPS or whatever database they can find out the unit number, loco number, carriages, freight consist etc etc.

But what do you actually get if querying an LU (or TWM) service? If we return to the first question, it was “are the units given TOPS numbers”. Let’s assume that really meant “are the units given individual TOPS numbers”.

I think we know most of these visiting units don't carry TOPS style 6 digit painted numbers - do they even exist? Do NR systems even need to know?
LU uses the leading car ID to identify an individual unit that is working a train. So on the Bakerloo Train 222 could have the leading car ID as 3547, then it'll change to 3299 at the terminus and goes back in the other direction (if those two units happen to be coupled together).

When talking to the Network Rail signaller, we use those numbers and they then relay that on to the Bakerloo Line Controller. There are no other unit numbers so unsure what they could have in their system
 

southern442

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Ooh yes! That could be why! Won't there be more than 99 Deep Tube stock though? Because then we'll end up with a Class 720 situation.
There will be more than 99, but I believe they will be essentially separate fleets (they may end up being entirely separate orders as currently only the Piccadilly line order has been confirmed). Additionally when new stock is eventually ordered for the Central line it will have to be a different specification slightly due to the tunnels on that line, so they wouldn't be interoperable anyways. Most likely the new Bakerloo line stock will be the only ones that have to run on NR metals (even without the southbound extension) and I doubt there will be 100+ of them, so it should work out.
 

Dstock7080

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Additionally when new stock is eventually ordered for the Central line it will have to be a different specification slightly due to the tunnels on that line, so they wouldn't be interoperable anyways.
New trains for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Central will only be different on number of cars and therefore overall train length; the PICC having 9-car versions.
 

southern442

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New trains for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Central will only be different on number of cars and therefore overall train length; the PICC having 9-car versions.
So Piccadilly line ones will have more, shorter cars and Bakerloo and Central will have more normal length ones?

Also I thought that Central Line trans would have to have their shoe equipment in a slightly different positioning as their positive rail is higher up than on other lines?
 

Class253

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So Piccadilly line ones will have more, shorter cars and Bakerloo and Central will have more normal length ones?

Also I thought that Central Line trans would have to have their shoe equipment in a slightly different positioning as their positive rail is higher up than on other lines?
They will all have more and shorter cars than current trains do with all versions having the same sized cars, after all it is a “standardised” fleet. The only real difference (from a passenger point of view) is expected to be the number of cars per train set.
 
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