Does Saltburn deserve a TPE service when other lines could be served instead?

[geoffk]

Without wishing to deprive Saltburn folk of a decent train service (and I've never lived in the area), does this line justify three trains an hour, especially when other lines in England are due to suffer long-term service reductions (i.e. not just Covid-related)? Examples would be Buxton, the Atherton line and Salisbury - Yeovil Jn, while services elsewhere are suffering from overcrowding.

 

[Watershed]

Without wishing to deprive Saltburn folk of a decent train service (and I've never lived in the area), does this line justify three trains an hour, especially when other lines in England are due to suffer long-term service reductions (i.e. not just Covid-related)? Examples would be Buxton, the Atherton line and Salisbury - Yeovil Jn, while services elsewhere are suffering from overcrowding.

Not really. But what service would you cut, and where?

Service patterns are often more about where it's feasible to spin trains - with a decent turnaround - and what connections local stakeholders value, than what might make sense with a blank sheet of paper.

 

[HST43257]

Without wishing to deprive Saltburn folk of a decent train service (and I've never lived in the area), does this line justify three trains an hour, especially when other lines in England are due to suffer long-term service reductions (i.e. not just Covid-related)? Examples would be Buxton, the Atherton line and Salisbury - Yeovil Jn, while services elsewhere are suffering from overcrowding.

In my view Saltburn has a good short distance and long distance market, so yes.

 

[47827]

It doesn't justify more than 2 trains per hour locally on the same bit Northern use but if enough people want to go to Northallerton, York and beyond to the likes of Leeds and Manchester then its fine. Probably questionable whether it needs to be hourly beyond York (4 or 5 trains a day would probably do) but that doesn't matter if it largely merges with the Leeds and Manchester link that needed to run further West.

 

[HST43257]

Probably questionable whether it needs to be hourly beyond York (4 or 5 trains a day would probably do)

First of all, remember Middlesbrough needs the hourly service.

Not sure if it was this or another thread, but someone recently mentioned that a path would be available every hour in most scenarios, so it makes most sense to run every one through beyond Middlesborough.

 

[47827]

First of all, remember Middlesbrough needs the hourly service.

Not sure if it was this or another thread, but someone recently mentioned that a path would be available every hour in most scenarios, so it makes most sense to run every one through beyond Middlesborough.

Yes. Certainly OK if it can be done. Because Middlesbrough gets and finds the hourly Manchester service useful (along with the bigger towns further south) and Saltburn/Redcar can justify an hourly service beyond Middlesbrough to the likes of Northallerton and York (with useful connections at the latter) it makes sense to simply bolt the 2 together even if the Saltburn line won't generate masses of through journeys to Greater Manchester each day.

 

[SuperNova]

Without wishing to deprive Saltburn folk of a decent train service (and I've never lived in the area), does this line justify three trains an hour, especially when other lines in England are due to suffer long-term service reductions (i.e. not just Covid-related)? Examples would be Buxton, the Atherton line and Salisbury - Yeovil Jn, while services elsewhere are suffering from overcrowding.

The issue with Buxton is capacity in Manchester, not that it doesn't deserve that service. It's an unfair comparison. Saltburn is at the end of the line and is a natural location to spin trains. Going back to curtail services at Middlesbrough will be difficult given the London services due to begin so further capacity constraints. May as well provide a direct service to York for those in Saltburn and vice versa - especially as domestic tourism has risen.

 

[47827]

The issue with Buxton is capacity in Manchester, not that it doesn't deserve that service. It's an unfair comparison. Saltburn is at the end of the line and is a natural location to spin trains. Going back to curtail services at Middlesbrough will be difficult given the London services due to begin so further capacity constraints. May as well provide a direct service to York for those in Saltburn and vice versa - especially as domestic tourism has risen.

Looking at the current service pattern the Hazel Grove to Blackpool service runs hourly in the daytime the opposite half hour to the Buxton to Manchester service. If the authorities were willing and able to use sprinters (assuming enough sets could be found) throughout then starting the Hazel Grove trains at Buxton to give a half hourly service from Buxton actually works outside of the peaks. Politically the idea wouldn't be popular though (with the eco side of government) as its not very eco friendly, no bi mode stock stock currently available (until 769s are finished in the Welsh Valleys) and you would essentially go back to the farcical situation of a few decades ago where there was about 1 or 2 electric trains per day using the overheads out Hazel Grove meaning they almost may as well then be switched off due to the costs and emissions associated with having them in use for relatively little use.

Obviously it'd be interesting to see if the Welsh 769s could be nabbed for a Buxton/Hazel Grove to Blackpool service in the medium to long term to solve the Buxton issue and share a path through Manchester (subject to trials, route clearence and Buxton crews being trained).

Miles off topic there so will end at that to discourage another thread being started.

Saltburn situation was much easier to solve than Buxton to Manchester, especially now the 185s are largely staying with TPE so extending the Redcar services makes sense.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There isn't a Buxton issue. I've travelled on that line off peak and the trains are virtually empty. Even if there was a Buxton issue you don't resolve it by making a far busier and more important service (Manchester - Blackpool) worse.

 

[tbtc]

Even if you do cut the TPE service back to just Middlesbrough then you only save one unit - you're not going to go to the complication of training staff on one Northern diagram that shuttles an 802 or Mk5 rake from Piccadilly to Buxton

It's a bit like the surplus of 365s (and other EMU classes) whilst there are insufficient DMUs to operate other services - I can appreciate it's frustrating but we need more common-or-garden DMUs to run routes like Buxton/ Atherton rather than complicating things further

I've nothing against Saltburn (lovely bit of coastline, recommended - should really be part of Yorkshire though!), but if you start from the position of "we must cut Saltburn services to find stock for routes around Manchester" then the easier option would be to trim some of Northern's Saltburn services that terminate at Darlington to free up some 156s for Yorkshire services that can cascade 150s to Buxton/ Atherton (since drivers/ guards should be trained on them, so depots can absorb the units as part of a common fleet)

That said, the Saltburn extension was partly about the problems of laying over at Middlesbrough and ensuring a more reliable service (Middlesbrough and Scarborough often saw their TPE services stopped short after the 2018 timetable was introduced, so effectively keeping a train in Cleveland at all time to ensure that the service can bounce back when needed - e.g. a late running service from Manchester to Saltburn has scope to terminate at Midlesbrough, whereas a late running service from Manchester to Middlesbrough would have to either find platform space for a long layover at York or try to turn back at Eaglescliffe to have a hope of being on time for the return journey to "Lancashire"

Also, we've thrown a lot of resources at Manchester in recent years - they've got the EMUs and the bi-modes on Northern services - they've had electrification and frequency increases - the extension of the TPE service to Saltburn is about the only improvement that Middlesbrough has had in recent years - I'd let them keep that

 

[Ex-controller]

These questions could come up in any number of different and endless scenarios. The reality is that railway infrastructure and resultant capacity doesn’t always completely coincide with the level of population or potential demand in each locality.

To take a couple of examples from Scotland, East Kilbride (population 75,000 approx) is the sixth largest settlement in Scotland and has a half hourly train service into Glasgow Central. Meanwhile Stirling (population 37,000) has 2-3tph to Glasgow Queen Street (3-4tph before covid), 1tph to Edinburgh (2tph before covid). Arguably there would be greater demand for a more frequent service in East Kilbride, but as the railway was never upgraded to keep up with the town’s development, the frequency is restricted. Stirling’s location in central Scotland as opposed to East Kilbride which is just south of Glasgow, also plays a role.

Another example is Irvine (pop 33,000) with 2-3tph to Glasgow (4tph before covid), and Kilwinning (pop 16,000) with 4/5tph to Glasgow (6tph before covid). All due to the town’s geography and the station being a junction for Largs/Ardrossan, as opposed to Irvine having to make do with Glasgow/Ayr services.

These anomalies will tend to be thrown up for as long as rail infrastructure is as restrictive as it is.

 

[pdeaves]

Do I understand the premise of this thread correctly, that there is an (hourly?) Transpennine service east of Middlesbrough to Saltburn? Which services are these? I can't seem to find any Transpennine services on Realtime Trains, other than a single York-Middlesbrough-York class 0 working https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

 

[CJ]

Do I understand the premise of this thread correctly, that there is an (hourly?) Transpennine service east of Middlesbrough to Saltburn? Which services are these? I can't seem to find any Transpennine services on Realtime Trains, other than a single York-Middlesbrough-York class 0 working https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

It hasn't been introduced yet (nor will it be in the Dec 21 timetable), currently TPE trains east of Middlesborough only go as far as Redcar Central, but I believe it will be extended to Saltburn introduced in the May 22 (or Dec 22) timetable next year.

 

[Purple Orange]

This sits in the same bucket as ‘does every town need a connection to Manchester Airport?’ No is the answer, but where else will the train terminate? If the core market is being served (Middlesbrough), but operationally it is advantageous to run on to Saltburn, why not continue to saltburn if it solves an operational problem?

 

[pdeaves]

It hasn't been introduced yet (nor will it be in the Dec 21 timetable), currently TPE trains east of Middlesborough only go as far as Redcar Central, but I believe it will be extended to Saltburn introduced in the May 22 (or Dec 22) timetable next year.

Oh, I understand now. Thanks.

 

[william]

Sunderland, Hartlepool and the Durham coastal towns need an hourly connection to York. I always thought a NCLE-YORK stopper via the coast (or even to Darlington) was desperately needed before the GC offering but connections south could still be improved.
Before Grand central, Sunderland-Hartlepool was effectively at the arse end of a long, remote and painfully slow branchline from Newcastle out to Teesside.
So slow, in fact, the introduction of Go's x10/9 bus service pretty much invented the idea that Tyneside and Teesside could actually be connected.

But then I suppose Sunderland is the city of the car

 

[Fokx]

It hasn't been introduced yet (nor will it be in the Dec 21 timetable), currently TPE trains east of Middlesborough only go as far as Redcar Central, but I believe it will be extended to Saltburn introduced in the May 22 (or Dec 22) timetable next year.

December

 

[Class 170101]

If it were up to me and it was about saving money I would cancel the Darlington to Saltburn service and therefore run a Saltburn to Manchester (or wherever it goes) TPE services at 1tph and a Saltburn to Bishops Auckland at 1tph.

 

[geoffk]

Sunderland, Hartlepool and the Durham coastal towns need an hourly connection to York. I always thought a NCLE-YORK stopper via the coast (or even to Darlington) was desperately needed before the GC offering but connections south could still be improved.
Before Grand central, Sunderland-Hartlepool was effectively at the arse end of a long, remote and painfully slow branchline from Newcastle out to Teesside.
So slow, in fact, the introduction of Go's x10/9 bus service pretty much invented the idea that Tyneside and Teesside could actually be connected.

But then I suppose Sunderland is the city of the car

Or even revive the Darlington - Hartlepool service which existed many moons ago.

 

[Starmill]

If Middlesbrough had traditionally had a bay platform of sufficient length, you can be sure that the TransPennine Express services would just be using that now as in the past, and absolutely not extending to Redcar Central or Saltburn.

Looking at the current service pattern the Hazel Grove to Blackpool service runs hourly in the daytime the opposite half hour to the Buxton to Manchester service. If the authorities were willing and able to use sprinters (assuming enough sets could be found) throughout then starting the Hazel Grove trains at Buxton to give a half hourly service from Buxton actually works outside of the peaks. Politically the idea wouldn't be popular though (with the eco side of government) as its not very eco friendly, no bi mode stock stock currently available (until 769s are finished in the Welsh Valleys) and you would essentially go back to the farcical situation of a few decades ago where there was about 1 or 2 electric trains per day using the overheads out Hazel Grove meaning they almost may as well then be switched off due to the costs and emissions associated with having them in use for relatively little use.

Obviously it'd be interesting to see if the Welsh 769s could be nabbed for a Buxton/Hazel Grove to Blackpool service in the medium to long term to solve the Buxton issue and share a path through Manchester (subject to trials, route clearence and Buxton crews being trained).

Miles off topic there so will end at that to discourage another thread being started.

Saltburn situation was much easier to solve than Buxton to Manchester, especially now the 185s are largely staying with TPE so extending the Redcar services makes sense.

There isn't a Buxton issue. I've travelled on that line off peak and the trains are virtually empty. Even if there was a Buxton issue you don't resolve it by making a far busier and more important service (Manchester - Blackpool) worse.

In this timescale, the services between Blackpool North and Manchester will no longer be running to Hazel Grove. They will both go to Manchester Airport.

I agree with the suggestion that 2tph Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton using electro-diesel trains is quite a good one though. The existing Northern class 769s are likely to be available.

 

[BoroAndy]

Even if you do cut the TPE service back to just Middlesbrough then you only save one unit - you're not going to go to the complication of training staff on one Northern diagram that shuttles an 802 or Mk5 rake from Piccadilly to Buxton

It's a bit like the surplus of 365s (and other EMU classes) whilst there are insufficient DMUs to operate other services - I can appreciate it's frustrating but we need more common-or-garden DMUs to run routes like Buxton/ Atherton rather than complicating things further

I've nothing against Saltburn (lovely bit of coastline, recommended - should really be part of Yorkshire though!), but if you start from the position of "we must cut Saltburn services to find stock for routes around Manchester" then the easier option would be to trim some of Northern's Saltburn services that terminate at Darlington to free up some 156s for Yorkshire services that can cascade 150s to Buxton/ Atherton (since drivers/ guards should be trained on them, so depots can absorb the units as part of a common fleet)

That said, the Saltburn extension was partly about the problems of laying over at Middlesbrough and ensuring a more reliable service (Middlesbrough and Scarborough often saw their TPE services stopped short after the 2018 timetable was introduced, so effectively keeping a train in Cleveland at all time to ensure that the service can bounce back when needed - e.g. a late running service from Manchester to Saltburn has scope to terminate at Midlesbrough, whereas a late running service from Manchester to Middlesbrough would have to either find platform space for a long layover at York or try to turn back at Eaglescliffe to have a hope of being on time for the return journey to "Lancashire"

Also, we've thrown a lot of resources at Manchester in recent years - they've got the EMUs and the bi-modes on Northern services - they've had electrification and frequency increases - the extension of the TPE service to Saltburn is about the only improvement that Middlesbrough has had in recent years - I'd let them keep that

Urmmmm.... 4th paragraph. I thought after local MPs got involved, TPE agreed that late running to Middlesbrough and Scarborough would not be stopped short anymore.

 

[Peter A]

Even if you do cut the TPE service back to just Middlesbrough then you only save one unit - you're not going to go to the complication of training staff on one Northern diagram that shuttles an 802 or Mk5 rake from Piccadilly to Buxton

It's a bit like the surplus of 365s (and other EMU classes) whilst there are insufficient DMUs to operate other services - I can appreciate it's frustrating but we need more common-or-garden DMUs to run routes like Buxton/ Atherton rather than complicating things further

I've nothing against Saltburn (lovely bit of coastline, recommended - should really be part of Yorkshire though!), but if you start from the position of "we must cut Saltburn services to find stock for routes around Manchester" then the easier option would be to trim some of Northern's Saltburn services that terminate at Darlington to free up some 156s for Yorkshire services that can cascade 150s to Buxton/ Atherton (since drivers/ guards should be trained on them, so depots can absorb the units as part of a common fleet)

If it were up to me and it was about saving money I would cancel the Darlington to Saltburn service and therefore run a Saltburn to Manchester (or wherever it goes) TPE services at 1tph and a Saltburn to Bishops Auckland at 1tph.

One thought I did have is that the Darlington to Saltburn service could become a Darlington to Nunthorpe/Whitby service given this is intended to be split away from the Newcastle to Middlesbrough service in the future. Having said that, I'd say the demand for a half hourly service from Darlington through to Redcar and Saltburn would definitely be there on a warm sunny day during the school holidays - whether doubling up of units could occur during the peak season would be a key question there.

 

[SuperNova]

Urmmmm.... 4th paragraph. I thought after local MPs got involved, TPE agreed that late running to Middlesbrough and Scarborough would not be stopped short anymore.

Operationally speaking, sometimes that's not possible. Turnaround times were significantly extended which meant spinning trains at Malton/Thornaby has barely occurred since.

 

[Starmill]

Operationally speaking, sometimes that's not possible. Turnaround times were significantly extended which meant spinning trains at Malton/Thornaby has barely occurred since.

Indeed. And in some cases this came at quite significant additional cost, and lowering of utilisation that would not be accommodated elsewhere. TransPennine Express have been exceptionally lucky through particular coincidental circumstances to be permitted to use such an enormous fleet for so little work, for so long.

 

[James90012]

One thought I did have is that the Darlington to Saltburn service could become a Darlington to Nunthorpe/Whitby service given this is intended to be split away from the Newcastle to Middlesbrough service in the future. Having said that, I'd say the demand for a half hourly service from Darlington through to Redcar and Saltburn would definitely be there on a warm sunny day during the school holidays - whether doubling up of units could occur during the peak season would be a key question there.

Thinking longer term, if the Boulby Line came back into use you could divert the 'extra' Northern service from Saltburn rather than having to run another Northern service between Middlesbrough and Marske. Might improve the operational case somewhat.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Ask the question another way.

Given the long-term decline of Middlesbrough, does it deserve an hourly TPE service on top of it's other services? Does Darlington - Saltburn deserve to be half-hourly? Are there alternative solutions which would meet the needs of local and long-distance travellers?

I'm not in the business of depriving people of their train service, but service patterns should not be set in stone forever and it seems reasonable to ask the awkward questions, do the analysis, and come up with some alternative options. Would hourly Bishop Auckland to Saltburn and hourly York to Saltburn (at 30/30 interval) meet those local and regional needs? Dealing with Nunthorpe as part of improved Whitby line services, could Newcastle - the coast - Middlesbrough services be extended to York instead of the TPE service?

I've used the Middlesbrough service to get via Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent, very convenient it was too, not having to make connections etc. However the usefulness of that through service also hinges on simple connections at Piccadilly, rather than Victoria and the Castlefield hourly link.

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit I find myself somewhat taken aback by the sudden interest from some members in carving up a useful and well patronised local service! Harrogate Loop it may not be but this isn't a rural branch line through hamlets whose population is measured as being three dogs and a goat. Two trains per hour between Darlington and Saltburn is a perfectly reasonable service provision and indeed I would suggest the minimum viable. In this area there are good bus links and also very good road links. You reduce the service to hourly you may as well not bother as you'll just send the traffic to the bus and the car. I quite agree that such patterns shouldn't necessarily never be up for change but there's a reason why the pattern here has endured for literally decades and it isn't just inertia.

That isn't to say that there aren't things that couldn't be improved or changed. Separating the Whitby and Nunthorpe services from the Durham Coast is very sensible as it avoids importing delays onto that piece of railway and makes it easier to recover services in both directions. Nunthorpe at the minute suffers from the issue of in the event if delays the easiest way to recover the service is to terminate and restart at Middlesbrough meaning an hour long gap (i.e. the same issue that TPEs services to Middlesbrough and Scarborough used to have). A shuttle however has no such issue.

Once the upgrades at Darlington are complete you will be able to remove at least two conflicting moves per hour across the ECML (the Darlington - Saltburn will use the new bay) and possible a total of four if, as I suspect happens, the Bishop Auckland service is split at Darlington. Which helps unlock capacity there without harming the local services any (arguably makes it better, I regularly catch a train that's from Bishop and it's often late due to having to thread its way through Darlington and over the ECML). It might also allow the re-introduction of a regular service between Darlington and Hartlepool. Reinstatement of the second through platform at Hartlepool remains on the cards which eases that bottleneck and the introduction of a semi-fast Middlesbrough - Newcastle service via the Coast (the remains of the Northern Connect plan) is still on the cards for some point in the future.

Hacking away at the local services seems a bizarre choice to make particularly when there's no obvious reason behind doing so? What happens with TPE and Northern's services would seem to be two separate issues which have been conflated for reasons that aren't entirely obvious to me.

As to the issue of TPE serving Saltburn then I would tend to agree with those that have posted that it's really just an attempt to make use of otherwise dead time. The extension to Redcar was pure operational convivence which could generate a positive piece of PR locally for the politicians and the company. The reality was that in order to improve the resilience of the service at Middlesbrough more time needed to be inserted into the schedules however there's nowhere particularly easy for the train to be stabled for any significant length of time at Middlesbrough.* Hence the easiest win operationally and political was to run to Redcar. Extending to Saltburn has a similar flavour though perhaps slightly more political than operational.

Going to Redcar nor Saltburn is particularly vital. The trains to and from Redcar mostly move fresh air (perhaps a dozen(ish) passengers per train?) apart from when Northern cancel a service then they get pick up all the displaced Northern passengers! So it's not the most useful use of the resources running to Redcar or Saltburn but when the decision has been taken to improve resilience at Middlesbrough (the key point on the route) then you might as well run to somewhere else in that dead that if you do end up cancelling isn't a massive drama (if a TPE is cancelled there's plenty of Northern services to take up the slack).

*The sidings to the west of the station (which are accessible from P2 where TPE terminated then) are only long enough for a 3-car 185 not a 6-car 185 or a 68 and rake of Mk5s. The sidings to the east of the station can only be accessed from P1 so that requires the train shunting to the west, reversing on the mainline and then entering the siding through P1. The only other choice is to reverse in Guisborough junction (just off towards Nunthorpe and Whitby) which TPE used to do regularly but as it's a single track line that blocks the line for as long as your parked in it which messes up the timetabling for Northern. Therefore, easiest win, go to Redcar and turn around there.

Thinking longer term, if the Boulby Line came back into use you could divert the 'extra' Northern service from Saltburn rather than having to run another Northern service between Middlesbrough and Marske. Might improve the operational case somewhat.

The last version of that plan that percolated included a Saltburn West station which provides a service to a slightly different part of Saltburn whilst maintaining the overall two trains per hour service to the town more generally. Somewhere in the vicinity of this overbridge on Marske Mill lane as I recall.

 

[James90012]

Ah interesting regarding Saltburn West.

Ultimately the Saltburn service is a happy coincidence, Middlesbrough Station barely had spare capacity before there was the May 18 TPE rewrite which didn't work and needed longer turnarounds at Middlesbrough. Then came further platforming pressures trying to overlay LNER services and things like the Northern proposed Newcastle to Middlesbrough via the ECML service and improvements for Whitby etc.

I imagine where we are now is even if there were 3 platforms and the funding wrangling was resolved all of the above would not fit, so Saltburn it is - a ready made terminus whilst giving some nice local connectivity benefits. I suspect it would take a long time for the extra cost of running to Saltburn to pay off a new platform or remodelling of Middlesbrough.

 

[SeanG]

I would argue that the Saltburn - Darlington service should be kept at 2 tph. It is useful to go via Darlington from Middlesbrough - Newcastle, as it takes the same time (including changing) as via the pitifully slow Durham Coast.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I must admit I find myself somewhat taken aback by the sudden interest from some members in carving up a useful and well patronised local service!.

It's because we care!