Does Southern ever use their class 377/6 and 7s on non metro routes?

[aleggatta]

This makes alot of sense. Well im still laymens. The acceleration is pretty much the same. I also find it strange because under the wires the motors still seem to make sound, so arent they still being fed power? I mean even on MOSb . It would seem anyway. Also i made video comparison of acceleration GPS Footage. They are the exact same in AC and DC

As far as I know they are simply not getting a supply to the high voltage side, they still have all normal DC control voltages, and whether they are able to regen brake via the brake resistors I don't know.

 

[JonathanH]

i dont think they go to milton now (which is a big shame).

Not just because of 'Southern cuts'. Removing the Southern services also allowed the services from Euston to be more balanced.

 

[boiledbeans2]

You slightly misunderstand. On DC the MCM is fed via the high speed circuit breaker, which is fed via the DC bus line. On AC the dc bus line isn’t used, so ok DC you run with 4 MCMs and AC with 3( MOSb doesn’t power up so no MOSb motors). Current limits should be the same for each unit so the additional mass of the now trailing motor car affects acceleration.

Ah I see, so that means the motors on the MOSb are not used on AC.

One question though, why isn't the DC bus used on AC? I thought the power flow for a modern AC train is: pantograph -> transformer -> rectifier -> DC bus -> inverter -> motors

 

[aleggatta]

Ah I see, so that means the motors on the MOSb are not used on AC.

One question though, why isn't the DC bus used on AC? I thought the power flow for a modern AC train is: pantograph -> transformer -> rectifier -> DC bus -> inverter -> motors

Take a look here and you should find your answers!

 

[boiledbeans2]

Take a look here and you should find your answers!

Thanks for your diagram! It was a good and informative thread to read from the beginning as well.

So from your diagram, it seems that the Electrostars (and early Desiros as seen in post #11) have a self-contained DC bus on each motor car, while newer units such as Class 700s have a DC bus which travels multiple cars (as discussed in post #11).

 

[aleggatta]

Thanks for your diagram! It was a good and informative thread to read from the beginning as well.

So from your diagram, it seems that the Electrostars (and early Desiros as seen in post #11) have a self-contained DC bus on each motor car, while newer units such as Class 700s have a DC bus which travels multiple cars (as discussed in post #11).

no, the DC bus runs the entire length of one unit, in the case of Electrostars only having shoegear on the outer driving coaches this carries the DC through to the MOSL(or the other DMOS in the case of only having one end on the third rail). This is the same for Desiros on DC and has become common for most DC EMU's built in the last 30 years.

 

[boiledbeans2]

no, the DC bus runs the entire length of one unit, in the case of Electrostars only having shoegear on the outer driving coaches this carries the DC through to the MOSL(or the other DMOS in the case of only having one end on the third rail). This is the same for Desiros on DC and has become common for most DC EMU's built in the last 30 years.

After taking another look at your diagram, yes, you are right, I missed the DC bus on the top.

So to be accurate, this means in AC mode, the DC buses are self contained within each motor car. But in DC mode, all the self contained DC buses are joined to form one big bus throughout the unit.

 

[branny_rail465]

i dont think they go to milton now (which is a big shame). Because they only now cut back into Watford Junction. The crowded sections really only is between the overground stations to Selhurt or something? I cant remember but during peak its PACKED.

Its actually between shepherds bush and watford. Its PACKED because they use 5 cars only. Which is silly. And then the trackwork between these two stations is for the most part....20 fricking miles per hour for like 3 to 4 miles its crazy that no speed improvements have been made in that section

Id say it should be improved to a minimum 35mph but average out at 50mph to 60mph as a part of some inprovement scheme for that section. Because damn is it sooo long.

But seriously , more services or routes like towards tring or bletchly terminus platforms should be considered for southern, And even then, a re route or additional service from east croydon or london bridge to watford jnc and beyond etc via tulse hill too (theres a section of track that leads to clapham jnc after tulse hill, that gets disused for some reason) this will prevent people who live near london bridge or dulwich , from having to keep changing over trains. Just one train in a loop from londom bridge, plus the east croydon service towards watford. So it adds capacity. And prevents serviced from being bombarded at least.


Another way to reduce packed services is to have a 377/2 pair with a class 377/7. 9 cars, more capacity. Or straight up 10 cars.

But this is just a hypothetical but i think it would be a cool endevour

 

[aleggatta]

After taking another look at your diagram, yes, you are right, I missed the DC bus on the top.

So to be accurate, this means in AC mode, the DC buses are self contained within each motor car. But in DC mode, all the self contained DC buses are joined to form one big bus throughout the unit.

In short no,

The DC bus line connects the shoegear at either end of the train, it has tappings from it to the high speed circuit breakers (main DC breaker on each coach). It is always continuous, and the only switching devices are physical switches between shore supply and shoegear.

When in AC the dc bus is not selected by the equipment on each car. The DC bus is still a physically continuous connection, but is not functioning.

 

[MCR247]

Its actually between shepherds bush and watford. Its PACKED because they use 5 cars only. Which is silly. And then the trackwork between these two stations is for the most part....20 fricking miles per hour for like 3 to 4 miles its crazy that no speed improvements have been made in that section

Id say it should be improved to a minimum 35mph but average out at 50mph to 60mph as a part of some inprovement scheme for that section. Because damn is it sooo long.

But seriously , more services or routes like towards tring or bletchly terminus platforms should be considered for southern, And even then, a re route or additional service from east croydon or london bridge to watford jnc and beyond etc via tulse hill too (theres a section of track that leads to clapham jnc after tulse hill, that gets disused for some reason) this will prevent people who live near london bridge or dulwich , from having to keep changing over trains. Just one train in a loop from londom bridge, plus the east croydon service towards watford. So it adds capacity. And prevents serviced from being bombarded at least.


Another way to reduce packed services is to have a 377/2 pair with a class 377/7. 9 cars, more capacity. Or straight up 10 cars.

But this is just a hypothetical but i think it would be a cool endevour

Unfortunately it isn’t as easy as just ‘increasing the speeds’ - the slowest parts are getting from the West London Line to the West Coast Mainline so there’s lots of point work and complicated (sharp corners etc) that will mean it is the speed that it is.

Plus, realistically I’m not sure you can complain it takes too long and then say you want a train from London Bridge to Watford via Dulwich and the same line. Well, you can of course, but it probably doesn’t help initial your point too much

 

[branny_rail465]

They have 4/5 powered coaches instead of 3/4 - a higher percentage.

Im not sure thats the exact reason because they have relitively the same motor to car ratio as /2s. So its powered relitively the same as a 4 car. Its likely down to more modern efficiency. They are an updated fleet after all, even the traction systems are said "via wiki' to be labelled differently to the older ones. Something along the lines of "MITRAC,DR1000" . At least id assume that would translate over from the class 379s. It also makes sense that the 10 cars are faster than 8 cars for this reason . Or perhaps 10 cars are permitted more power to the wheels under the reststricted power of third rail. Idk really. Only a person who knows the exact technical details can answer that.

im guessing it is relatesd to slightly higher efficiency from an updated hardware . They even sound slightly more "crisp" with the motors. So theres some variation in design on these versions of the newer 377s. But its just a guess.

 

[NSE]

Perhaps, but at the same time they are pretty much designed better than the older versions internally, to be able carry more people when they go towards of from Gatwick lets just say. More seats and carriages etc. So as a bi product id imagine they are useful for multiple service types? And probably why they were used in those services originally.

Theyve actually done a weird rotation of services over the years, not long ago were they on my local south london line between East croydon and london bridge via tulse hill, it was so short lived. They changed the train to /3s to make 6 cars now.

/7s also do East croydon to hemel hempstead now. But as a 5 car?? Odd because they are PACKED during rush hour. They need to throw in the old 10 car set up for those services whenever they can. I also find it odd that they were cut back from milton keynes. Maybe they could also do Bletchly (Bletchly has terminus /reversable platforms) or Tring services instead?

In summary the 377/6 and 7s do get plopped in some odd service locations and service types & seem to do them well. So i think they are better than just for metro style service in my opinion to be honest. Better at acceleration too. Only issue is some hardware & technical limitations prevent them from accelerating faster on AC. strange mechanical quirk if you ask me.


Is it possible that there is a diagram for /6s and /7s on the brighton to victoria runs available? I want to try and ride them. The acceleration profile on the newer 377s seems alot more consistent id love to track their GPS performance to 90mph on the faster mainlines. If you know of any timetabled slots that they do , that would be perfect.

There is no booked work for /6’s and /7’s to Brighton. All their booked work is within London/Metro routes. As all SN drivers sign 377’s, they could end up anywhere in times of disruption or a football special etc. so it’s not impossible, but rare. As I mentioned, the nature of being 5 car means they are automatically ruled out of being tacked on to an adhoc diagram that involves being part of a 12 coach formation at some point in the day.

They’re also based at Stewart’s Lane so they cycle through there for maintenance. I’m not a driver, but regularly work out of Selhurst depot and it’s not that common to even see them berthed there.

 

[43096]

There is no booked work for /6’s and /7’s to Brighton. All their booked work is within London/Metro routes. As all SN drivers sign 377’s, they could end up anywhere in times of disruption or a football special etc. so it’s not impossible, but rare. As I mentioned, the nature of being 5 car means they are automatically ruled out of being tacked on to an adhoc diagram that involves being part of a 12 coach formation at some point in the day.

They’re also based at Stewart’s Lane so they cycle through there for maintenance. I’m not a driver, but regularly work out of Selhurst depot and it’s not that common to even see them berthed there.

They used to have booked work on the Victoria-Brighton fasts at weekends as 10-car formations. If I remember correctly it was both for capacity and to help balance out mileages across the entire 377 fleet.

 

[branny_rail465]

There is no booked work for /6’s and /7’s to Brighton. All their booked work is within London/Metro routes. As all SN drivers sign 377’s, they could end up anywhere in times of disruption or a football special etc. so it’s not impossible, but rare. As I mentioned, the nature of being 5 car means they are automatically ruled out of being tacked on to an adhoc diagram that involves being part of a 12 coach formation at some point in the day.

They’re also based at Stewart’s Lane so they cycle through there for maintenance. I’m not a driver, but regularly work out of Selhurst depot and it’s not that common to even see them berthed there.

I see..lets hope in future they get put on those services again somehow. Apparently 387s are getting cascaded down to southern. But who knows. Maybe those will act like the "377/6s" . As they are both second gen electros. Perhaps their more updated traction also allows for better acceleration in 8 car formation on third rail. If they even get considered onto regular southern services that is.

Unfortunately it isn’t as easy as just ‘increasing the speeds’ - the slowest parts are getting from the West London Line to the West Coast Mainline so there’s lots of point work and complicated (sharp corners etc) that will mean it is the speed that it is.

Plus, realistically I’m not sure you can complain it takes too long and then say you want a train from London Bridge to Watford via Dulwich and the same line. Well, you can of course, but it probably doesn’t help initial your point too much

Im aware of the lower speed limits due to track curves and points. But i also know there are really curved tracks with a higher speed threshold capability. Thats why i said perhaps work can be done on them to make them accomidate for 35mph in the slowest sections. And try to average out around 55 to 60mph in others. Assuming a case study and then track work gets done beforehand. This will make that section quicker overall.



My second hypothetical was to allow for more frequency with the service towards watford and also reducing the distance and times people may have to keep changing trains . If i live in dulwich or tulse hill itd make it easier to wait for a train towards clapham as opposed to having to rely on changing at streatham for a scarce once an hour service. I think itd be a good idea to try to plan out. So maybe 1 or two services from london bridge as a semi fast via either denmark hill and or dulwich that adds capacity to the existing service. One can terminste at watford jnc, another at hemel hemostead , and another at tring, or rotwte where they terminate anyway. Its a hypothetical but i think it would be cool. Then terminate them at bletchly or tring terminus platforms to allow for other lnwr trains to keep to their own timetable and not be lagging behind a southern service parked up in hemel hampstead blocking the path

 

[physics34]

I see..lets hope in future they get put on those services again somehow. Apparently 387s are getting cascaded down to southern. But who knows. Maybe those will act like the "377/6s" . As they are both second gen electros. Perhaps their more updated traction also allows for better acceleration in 8 car formation on third rail. If they even get considered onto regular southern services that is.


Im aware of the lower speed limits due to track curves and points. But i also know there are really curved tracks with a higher speed threshold capability. Thats why i said perhaps work can be done on them to make them accomidate for 35mph in the slowest sections. And try to average out around 55 to 60mph in others. Assuming a case study and then track work gets done beforehand. This will make that section quicker overall.



My second hypothetical was to allow for more frequency with the service towards watford and also reducing the distance and times people may have to keep changing trains . If i live in dulwich or tulse hill itd make it easier to wait for a train towards clapham as opposed to having to rely on changing at streatham for a scarce once an hour service. I think itd be a good idea to try to plan out. So maybe 1 or two services from london bridge as a semi fast via either denmark hill and or dulwich that adds capacity to the existing service. One can terminste at watford jnc, another at hemel hemostead , and another at tring, or rotwte where they terminate anyway. Its a hypothetical but i think it would be cool. Then terminate them at bletchly or tring terminus platforms to allow for other lnwr trains to keep to their own timetable and not be lagging behind a southern service parked up in hemel hampstead blocking the path

The route between wembley and shepherds bush is extremely complex... many many sets of points etc... it would cost vast sums to improve for just 1 train an hour.....
2 trains per hour would probably work well but i believe there is a big struggle for paths as it is. Id have liked to see the route rebuilt so that it connects with Old Oak Common or maybe have platforms rebuilt at willesden junction mainline but these are pie in the sky at the moment.

Theres now no financial incentive to run beyond Watford...simple as that.

Btw there were some plans to run a London Bridge to Ealing Broadway (via peckham rye, wandsworth road and Kensington Olympia) "and beyond" service using 171s that got shelved at the last minute about a decade ago

 

[Sun Chariot]

Apparently 387s are getting cascaded down to southern

That  might be why I saw a GatExp red 387 sat at Portsmouth Harbour, mid afternoon last Sunday. It's the second time I've seen such a unit on the West Coastway.

 

[CarrotPie]

That  might be why I saw a GatExp red 387 sat at Portsmouth Harbour, mid afternoon last Sunday. It's the second time I've seen such a unit on the West Coastway.

Southern already has the 387/2 subclass. They've been using them on the Coastway routes ever since COVID. They should be getting some more 387/1s from GN next year.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Southern already has the 387/2 subclass. They've been using them on the Coastway routes ever since COVID. They should be getting some more 387/1s from GN next year.

Absolutely, but the GatExp 387/2s are not diagrammed onto the Hampshire coast.
I suspect those two workings were covering non availability of a 377; hence my use of the word "might".

 

[Class455]

On the subject of this thread, there’s two 377/6 diagrams running today on the East Grinstead line. Both diagrams running as 10 cars

 

[MCR247]

Im aware of the lower speed limits due to track curves and points. But i also know there are really curved tracks with a higher speed threshold capability. Thats why i said perhaps work can be done on them to make them accomidate for 35mph in the slowest sections. And try to average out around 55 to 60mph in others. Assuming a case study and then track work gets done beforehand. This will make that section quicker overall.



My second hypothetical was to allow for more frequency with the service towards watford and also reducing the distance and times people may have to keep changing trains . If i live in dulwich or tulse hill itd make it easier to wait for a train towards clapham as opposed to having to rely on changing at streatham for a scarce once an hour service. I think itd be a good idea to try to plan out. So maybe 1 or two services from london bridge as a semi fast via either denmark hill and or dulwich that adds capacity to the existing service. One can terminste at watford jnc, another at hemel hemostead , and another at tring, or rotwte where they terminate anyway. Its a hypothetical but i think it would be cool. Then terminate them at bletchly or tring terminus platforms to allow for other lnwr trains to keep to their own timetable and not be lagging behind a southern service parked up in hemel hampstead blocking the path

Honestly, I can’t see Network Rail proposing speed upgrades to this section of the network. It might save a couple of minutes maximum, only for the trains to have to wait for their paths onto the contested BML and WCML at each end.

As for a London Bridge - WLL - Watford service, never going to happen imo.

 

[MrJeeves]

Absolutely, but the GatExp 387/2s are not diagrammed onto the Hampshire coast.

They (387s generally — not sure if that's the GX or GN ones) are planned to operate all Brighton to Southampton services from the timetable change in June.

 

[Sun Chariot]

They (387s generally — not sure if that's the GX or GN ones) are planned to operate all Brighton to Southampton services from the timetable change in June.

Thanks for the insight - that's a refreshing change from the endless processions of SWR and Southern "house colours".

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks for the insight - that's a refreshing change from the endless processions of SWR and Southern "house colours".

If some of them are in GWR green, that won't be ideal though.

 

[branny_rail465]

Honestly, I can’t see Network Rail proposing speed upgrades to this section of the network. It might save a couple of minutes maximum, only for the trains to have to wait for their paths onto the contested BML and WCML at each end.

As for a London Bridge - WLL - Watford service, never going to happen imo.

I think its better to still optmise the route if passenger trains pass through it regardless. At the most the east croydon service takes the slow line so it doesent nesseccerilly have to fight for clearence. Even then they would have to organise the services on the line through dulwich trains come every 15 minutes usually so having a coupe semi fasts down that line wont hurt i dont believe.

The London bridge thing may not happen but sounds like a good route for those further central and further away from croydon amd for more capacity. The trains could sit in platform 15 , or wherever the least used platforms are, until clearance. And if its too much hastle on line from LB, then it could skip tulse hill and go via peckham and via denmark Hill instead and skip clapham junction entirely. I wouldnt say never, but it is looking very unlikely st the moment. I always leave room for an open mind , the railways is ..unpredictable in alot of ways.

 

[CarrotPie]

If some of them are in GWR green, that won't be ideal though.

GWR are keeping theirs - it'll be GN's 387/1s that are transferred (because it's all GTR).

 

[JonathanH]

GWR are keeping theirs - it'll be GN's 387/1s that are transferred (because it's all GTR).

Yes. However, there are three former GWR 387/1s (387172-387174) which are currently working on the GN which it has been suggested on this forum are most likely to transfer within GTR to work for Southern.

 

[CarrotPie]

Yes. However, there are three former GWR 387/1s (387172-387174) which are currently working on the GN which it has been suggested on this forum are most likely to transfer within GTR to work for Southern.

Huh. I must've missed that. Is that because they're different to GN's that they're being transferred? Also, where are the 387/3s kicking about these days?

 

[jojoseph72]

I think it’s better to still optmise the route if passenger trains pass through it regardless.

Optimising routes is good, but capacity restraints exist. The East Croydon - Watford Junction service already faces quite a lot of capacity restraints in all areas on the line so to increase the frequency or introduce a similar service would face an uphill battle for approval - remember this routes is a key freight rail corridor on top of the intense passenger services run.

Especially on the WCML side Southern are cutting their Hemel Hempstead little addons so all will now terminate at Watford - from my understanding NR aren’t happy with how much capacity it takes up when it turnarounds at Hemel and DfT aren’t willing to fund it to Milton Keynes (main reason why it got cut back to Watford Junction in the first place - even that was lucky DfT wanted the route cut all together.)

The London bridge thing may not happen but sounds like a good route for those further central and further away from croydon amd for more capacity.

Not really a great route, to get to those places that route would cover you would need to change once (maybe at worst twice). With capacity being at a premium the DfT and Operators will look to see what routes can be enhanced or introduced that can guarantee a boost revenue, rather then convenience.

The facts that something similar was proposed and shelved almost a decade ago shows the likely poor ROI for that route.

 

[branny_rail465]

Optimising routes is good, but capacity restraints exist. The East Croydon - Watford Junction service already faces quite a lot of capacity restraints in all areas on the line so to increase the frequency or introduce a similar service would face an uphill battle for approval - remember this routes is a key freight rail corridor on top of the intense passenger services run.

Especially on the WCML side Southern are cutting their Hemel Hempstead little addons so all will now terminate at Watford - from my understanding NR aren’t happy with how much capacity it takes up when it turnarounds at Hemel and DfT aren’t willing to fund it to Milton Keynes (main reason why it got cut back to Watford Junction in the first place - even that was lucky DfT wanted the route cut all together.)


Not really a great route, to get to those places that route would cover you would need to change once (maybe at worst twice). With capacity being at a premium the DfT and Operators will look to see what routes can be enhanced or introduced that can guarantee a boost revenue, rather then convenience.

The facts that something similar was proposed and shelved almost a decade ago shows the likely poor ROI for that route.

It sounds like a shame! Too many bottle necks I see. Ive heard many proposed routes before that never became a thing, would still be fascinating though. I think with london bridge to watford there are sections between tulse hill and balham that the train can go past. Oh well.

Lets hope 377/6s and 7s get more interesting routes overtime then. The metro service seem to have changed over time too. Or suburban. So it just made me think of possibilities.

 

[jojoseph72]

I think with london bridge to watford there are sections between tulse hill and balham that the train can go past.

The only two routes I can see happening is either via Tulse Hill/Balham which would see higher usage but would face the issues of capacity constraints. The other option is via Denmark Hill which is less capacity constrained but likely have lower usage due to missing out key stations like Clapham Junction and Balham - so you either have low usage or risk track performance.

Lets hope 377/6s and 7s get more interesting routes overtime then. The metro service seem to have changed over time too. Or suburban. So it just made me think of possibilities.

I doubt the 377/6s & 7s will see much usage beyond metro usage (I know they are used on the Horsham & Dorking route but that route has a mix of everything on it).
The trains are built for metro routing, and they do a real good job at it.