Does Southern ever use their class 377/6 and 7s on non metro routes?

[Whiggism]

Hi all, I was wondering how rare 377/6/7s used on the Brighton mainline, and when was the last time they have been used on these routes.

 

[NSE]

I think they did have some booked VIC - BTN work on a Saturday when they first arrived. But as Southern only operate that on Sundays, that doesn’t happen anymore. They’re based out of Stewarts Lane, so all diagrams cycle through there which means they’re less likely to end up on the mainline routes anyway. As the /7’s are now booked on Watford work over the /2’s, that’s another few units that are guaranteed to not be on mainline. I haven’t seen them down there for a while.

 

[MCR247]

I remember getting a pair on a Victoria - Gatwick Airport when there was engineering works and an hour service was running via Sutton and Horsham

 

[PGAT]

It’s unlikely they will ever be seen again outside of engineering works. If there were ever a shortage of regular 377s the first trains to fill in would be the 387s from Gatwick Express.

Outside of that I believe there was a 377/6 booked for the East Grinstead line briefly during COVID times

 

[TRAX]

Is there a particular reason why these ones are stuck on Metro duties ?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Is there a particular reason why these ones are stuck on Metro duties ?

Probably because the service use doesn’t warrant an 8 car 377 but is to little for a 4 car 377?

 

[PGAT]

Is there a particular reason why these ones are stuck on Metro duties ?

They’re more optimised for metro routes because of better acceleration, 2+2 seating throughout the whole train and they can more easily form 10 car units

 

[TRAX]

They’re more optimised for metro routes because of better acceleration, 2+2 seating throughout the whole train and they can more easily form 10 car units

Oh I didn’t know they had better acceleration, why is that ?

 

[PGAT]

They're about 10 years newer than the other 377s

 

[43096]

They're about 10 years newer than the other 377s

How does that give them better acceleration?

 

[king_walnut]

Pre-covid, one used to be sent to work the Lewes shuttles from Brighton on football days.

 

[PGAT]

How does that give them better acceleration?

The trains are less worn down and presumably they have better technology

 

[SolomonSouth]

How does that give them better acceleration?

They have 4/5 powered coaches instead of 3/4 - a higher percentage.

 

[TRAX]

The trains are less worn down and presumably they have better technology

That’s not really how machines work. You can have a very old machine working better than a newer one. A lot of factors come into play here.

They have 4/5 powered coaches instead of 3/4 - a higher percentage.

Cheers.

 

[43096]

The trains are less worn down and presumably they have better technology

You've not heard of overhauls?

They have 4/5 powered coaches instead of 3/4 - a higher percentage.

Thanks - that is a rational explanation.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They’re more optimised for metro routes because of better acceleration, 2+2 seating throughout the whole train and they can more easily form 10 car units

All the trains regardless of metro and long distance are timed using the same running times if formed of Class 377 or 387, so that makes no difference really.

 

[TRAX]

All the trains regardless of metro and long distance are timed using the same running times if formed of Class 377 or 387, so that makes no difference really.

Yes but delay recovery is an important factor.

 

[physics34]

On AC i can assure u the acceleration is slower on the /7s than the /2s for some reason

 

[NSE]

I’m told rather reliably that the /2’s absolutely fly on AC.

 

[bb21]

I do recall one particular forum staff jolly not long before the pandemic being conveyed on a pair of 377/6s on a Brighton - Victoria run via Littlehampton due to weekend possessions on the BML.

 

[SolomonSouth]

I’m told rather reliably that the /2’s absolutely fly on AC.

Oh yes! I timed one on AC getting just 39 seconds to 54mph. A 377/7 took 50 seconds to get to the same speed. The difference is very real.

 

[RichJF]

It’s unlikely they will ever be seen again outside of engineering works. If there were ever a shortage of regular 377s the first trains to fill in would be the 387s from Gatwick Express.

Outside of that I believe there was a 377/6 booked for the East Grinstead line briefly during COVID times

They appeared on a semi-regular basis on our line. Think less so after the recent timetable change.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

When the Brighton Express services ran I seem to recall they were all 3+2 Metro stock.

 

[SolomonSouth]

On AC i can assure u the acceleration is slower on the /7s than the /2s for some reason

In theory it should be faster, I don't know why it is slower when they have more power

 

[aleggatta]

In theory it should be faster, I don't know why it is slower when they have more power

The answer will surprise you, but is slightly technical. TLDR: Only 3 MCMs on AC with a 377/7

Apologies if the sentences get a little long!

On a 377, the AC transformer has 6 pairs of windings, feeding a 4 winding box, and a 2 winding box. one pair of windings goes to each vehicle on a 4 car unit, each pair of windings providing power to all the components on that vehicle via the Line converter Module (LCM) of each coach. The LCM feeds the Auxiliary converter module (ACM) on the driving coaches and the Motor Converter Module (MCM) on all motored coaches. The design of the 5 car was set out to mirror that of the 4 car unit, only with the extra coach (MOSb).

The lack of an extra set of windings to serve the extra coach, results in there being no AC supply to MOSb, and as such on AC the unit only runs with 3 traction packages present. It always puzzled me as to why they couldn't simply double off the same set of windings for MOSa, but its probably a control circuit issue and would require a reasonably large redesign of the underfloor equipment on the PTOSL of the 5 car units to add the necessary contactors, and change the inter-car jumpers on the B end of the coach to carry the extra pair of windings to that coach (which would then make that end of the coach incompatible with the inter car jumpers on the DMOS if the MOSb had to be removed for any reason)

 

[JonathanH]

When the Brighton Express services ran I seem to recall they were all 3+2 Metro stock.

Southern have never operated any Electrostars which solely have 3+2 standard class seating.

115 out of 154 of their 4-car units have two coaches worth of 3+2 seating, with a further 20 that have 3+2 seating in between the doors.

The initial use of Electrostars on Brighton Express workings used pairs of 377/3s in 6-car formations, and were among the first services to use the units, actually 375/3s as built.

The first use of low numbered 377/1s was also on this route as they started to be introduced, including 377120 to 377139.

When new, the 377/6s did a lot of London to Brighton work at the weekend, as did 9-car formations of 377/3s immediately prior. Part of this was apparently balancing mileage although also due to what could operate DOO I think as well.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-377-7.93996/page-6#post-1778186

 

[GatwickDepress]

Very rarely, they've also appeared on the East Coastway. I recall seeing a pair working an ex-Vic service to Eastbourne and boarding one at Hastings for Brighton, albeit both were pre-pandemic.

 

[MrJeeves]

I've seen a 3+3+4 coach config once on an between-strikes day (24 June 2022) working from Brighton to Victoria using two /3s and one /1 or /4 (I don't know which). I'm not used to anything except 4-car sets working Brighton Mainline, to be honest.

 

[NSE]

I’ve seen 4x /3’s on the BML. Not sure where it was going. Not frequent but I have seen it at least once.

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve seen 4x /3’s on the BML. Not sure where it was going. Not frequent but I have seen it at least once.

It was common for a period so not really surprising. 4 x /3s had booked turns for a while on East Grinstead services as well, in between the 313s arriving and the 10-car Metro happening.