Does the East Grinstead Branch really need 8 carriage trains?

[Magdalia]

Both the East Grinstead and Reigate trains are the only ones to use platforms 4-6 at East Croydon so probably not as important for the capacity needs between East Croydon and Victoria with main line trains on P1-3 just a few minutes ahead of them.

Thameslink has 8tph through East Croydon in each direction. The 9J and 9R trains come off/go onto the Redhill line so are usually in platforms 4-6.

There is also a 2tph terminating/starting for London Bridge, and the West London services to accommodate, usually in platform 5.

 

[LA50041]

Just about - standing from Coulsdon or Purley on many daytime trains. It should be 8 coaches really but that needs Reigate Station updated.

East Grinstead trains can be as busy during the daytime but obviously not all are. 8 coaches seems sensible when hourly although I guess that might change when the off-peak service doubles in December as rumoured.

Both the East Grinstead and Reigate trains are the only ones to use platforms 4-6 at East Croydon so probably not as important for the capacity needs between East Croydon and Victoria with main line trains on P1-3 just a few minutes ahead of them.

Platform 5 is in constant use with London Bridge termination and Watford trains. There are Thameslink through 4&6 as well as the Cat/tat -London Bridge & the Uckfields.

 

[bramling]

I have so far traveled on the east grinstead(EG) branch about 3 times now, 2 on a round trip from london and one was from East Grinstead back to London to change trains there. All of those times the trains arent even that crowded at all. Even when it was at about 5-6pm, hell passing east croydon to london the train wasnt even full at all and still have seats free. Honestly it looks like if Southern runs just 4 car trains it will just be as fine and spare up some units. Is the East Grinstead Branch that busy or necessary to run 8 car trains every time? Or even how busy can the London Victoria to East Grinstead line be?

I’d say the simple answer is yes.

Whilst the line has sleepy times, it can also get quite busy. East Grinstead and Oxted are both quite major towns, though to be fair many of the other stations are fairly quiet - especially as the line between Oxted and East Croydon is partly duplicated by the Caterham line.

So in essence here’s a line that has the potential to offer a decent service for both local and London journeys, and if we want people to actually use it in reference to the car then it needs to have both a decent frequency and enough capacity. In addition to that it would be a waste of track space to be running 4-car trains into Victoria.

If anything it would make more sense to revert to an Oxted to Uckfield shuttle service, which would further fill the East Grinstead trains inwards of Oxted, and also reduce diesel running over electrified tracks.

 

[cle]

I’d say the simple answer is yes.

Whilst the line has sleepy times, it can also get quite busy. East Grinstead and Oxted are both quite major towns, though to be fair many of the other stations are fairly quiet - especially as the line between Oxted and East Croydon is partly duplicated by the Caterham line.

So in essence here’s a line that has the potential to offer a decent service for both local and London journeys, and if we want people to actually use it in reference to the car then it needs to have both a decent frequency and enough capacity. In addition to that it would be a waste of track space to be running 4-car trains into Victoria.

If anything it would make more sense to revert to an Oxted to Uckfield shuttle service, which would further fill the East Grinstead trains inwards of Oxted, and also reduce diesel running over electrified tracks.

For the latter part, do you mean instead of a direct service? Or as a second service? The direct is well used.

Shuttles/enforced changes kill use - we saw this on the Redhill-Tonbridge service.

 

[bramling]

For the latter part, do you mean instead of a direct service? Or as a second service? The direct is well used.

Shuttles/enforced changes kill use - we saw this on the Redhill-Tonbridge service.

Instead of.

I wouldn’t necessarily advocate it, however if the premise of the thread is that off-peak 8-car trains to East Grinstead are wasteful of resources then this is one way to address that.

In an absolutely ideal world in the off-peak one would probably run an 8-car train out of Victoria and divide at Oxted with one half going to East Grinstead and Uckfield, however I suspect Uckfield will never be electrified in my lifetime.

 

[Horizon22]

Splitting and joining trains at East Croydon would take up more capacity and introduce a lot of risk to performance.

A risk? It would be a performance nightmare.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think @swt_passenger covers the entire subject most sensibly in post #6, East Grinstead is fortunate that there are stabling facilities where an 8 car can be split, stabled and reformed later but would, of course, require alterations to at least two drivers diagrams to actually carry out or have a driver spending an entire shift sitting uselessly at EG for the sake of two moves

Back in the day, they used to run into the siding south of the station (does that still exist?), split and come back. One set split off in the up platform and stabled there between the peaks. Would any of that require a second driver?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Even if East Croydon were signalled for splitting and joining trains (I doubt it is, but may be wrong) there is no way that for most of the day there would be the capacity to do it. Add in the possibility of a delay (however “minor”) to one of the two portions and you’re risking fouling up what is already a bottleneck. 9 times out of 10, if things “have always been done this way” there’s a very good reason for it, which you mess with at everyone’s peril!

Correct it has no calling on signals

 

[TurboMan]

Back in the day, they used to run into the siding south of the station (does that still exist?), split and come back. One set split off in the up platform and stabled there between the peaks. Would any of that require a second driver?

No, it only took one driver, with the platform staff helping with the gangway doors.

 

[ctrh136]

Aren't there any number of Southbound trains bound for places like Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton and various other destinations such as Caterham also Horsham that all use platforms 5 and 6 at East Croydon as well as trains for Bedford, London Victoria and London Bridge (Northbound) all using platform 4?

I think they are referring to Reigate and East Grinstead services being the only ones to Victoria from that side (platforms 4-6).

I am a regular user of East Grinstead trains and find that often they are very busy, especially at weekends where 8 car trains only just cope!

 

[156gricer]

The Woldingham line has had a disproportionately phenomenal service for years. My understanding is there’s a lot of influential people and politicians living on the route.

 

[Minstral25]

Aren't there any number of Southbound trains bound for places like Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton and various other destinations such as Caterham also Horsham that all use platforms 5 and 6 at East Croydon as well as trains for Bedford, London Victoria and London Bridge (Northbound) all using platform 4?

What I meant was the only Victoria destination trains - I'll amend my post to be clearer

 

[ExRes]

Back in the day, they used to run into the siding south of the station (does that still exist?), split and come back. One set split off in the up platform and stabled there between the peaks. Would any of that require a second driver?

'Back in the day' and nowadays are two very different creatures of course, would ASLEF agree to one driver doing it now without changes to the relevant diagrams? if diagrams had to be changed would the driver have sufficient time for a PNB? I've no idea whether management and unions could/would come to an amicable agreement these days, somehow I doubt it

 

[MCR247]

A risk? It would be a performance nightmare.

To be fair, I did say a lot of risk!

 

[zwk500]

'Back in the day' and nowadays are two very different creatures of course, would ASLEF agree to one driver doing it now without changes to the relevant diagrams? if diagrams had to be changed would the driver have sufficient time for a PNB? I've no idea whether management and unions could/would come to an amicable agreement these days, somehow I doubt it

Pre covid a unit was certainly stabled in the siding during the day. Unless there was a movement into or out of the Bluebell, in which case the unit stayed attached.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In an absolutely ideal world in the off-peak one would probably run an 8-car train out of Victoria and divide at Oxted with one half going to East Grinstead and Uckfield, however I suspect Uckfield will never be electrified in my lifetime.

Isn't that what they used to do before they electrified the East Grisntead branch?

 

[Julia]

There used to be a regular evening peak joining movement at Kings Cross on my commute (pre-Covid) - I think there was 8x365 arriving from Hornsey which joined a 4x365 already in the platform to make a 12x365 Peterborough fast. The biggest cause of delays and short-forming on that service was the autocouplers playing up enough to lose the booked fast line path, which they did on a regular basis. It's now 12x700 and reliable as clockwork.

 

[Taunton]

It’s easier operationally to leave the trains the same size all day than split them to single units during the Offpeak, because doing the latter needs more drivers, and more stabling sidings at the outer extents of the network. There‘s only limited space to leave half the train length at the London end terminus, because it blocks platforms, and there isn’t necessarily track capacity to run extra ECS out and back to and from the London end sidings.

Picture London Bridge or Victoria running at maximum frequency then superimpose a similar number of split half-trains running ECS back to a depot just after the morning peak.

Can be done a lot more efficiently than that. As was long done on the Wirral electric network.

Train arrives, split in platform. Driver takes the next departure with the front unit.

Next full length train arrives alongside, driver shunts back into siding, walks over, takes other half of split train on following departure.

Done at 0930, also fitted in well with those on duty since 0530 taking and returning from mid-shift breaks. Different combinations at different points. For whatever reason the buckeyes and other connections never gave trouble.

 

[Bikeman78]

It’s been noticeable in the entire outer suburban network for years, but I’m sure applies equally to numerous routes. It’s easier operationally to leave the trains the same size all day than split them to single units during the Offpeak, because doing the latter needs more drivers, and more stabling sidings at the outer extents of the network. There‘s only limited space to leave half the train length at the London end terminus, because it blocks platforms, and there isn’t necessarily track capacity to run extra ECS out and back to and from the London end sidings.

Picture London Bridge or Victoria running at maximum frequency then superimpose a similar number of split half-trains running ECS back to a depot just after the morning peak. Then do it again in reverse about 5 hours later, ensuring everything arrives at exactly the right time to make the join.

An early evening up train may have been full in the down direction and will also be full again on its next booked down trip, so the intervening up trip has to be 8 car even if nobody is travelling that direction.

Thus is something that varies by terminus, and over time. At one time, a lot of off peak trains through Wimbledon were single 455s, with splitting and joining at Waterloo and probably Guildford too. I forgot when that changed to pairs all day; maybe it was the 2004 rewrite. The Shenfield stoppers also used to split off peak, most likely at Shenfield rather than Liverpool Street.

By 2020, Greater Anglia ran pairs all day on all West Anglia routes. However, London Overground ran mostly four car off peak. 13 pairs in the peaks, eight singles and three pairs off peak.