Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[Tetchytyke]

If coming from East Yorkshire there's no avoiding the windy country roads.

North of York you’d use the A59/A658, south of York you’d use the A63 or A64 then use the ring road. Hull would be the M62. The new ring road section from Thorpe Park to Roundhay has made quite a bit of difference. All of these roads are good A roads.

The roads in parts of East Yorkshire are crap, yes, but that’s the same wherever you’re travelling to.

 

[mpthomson]

North of York you’d use the A59/A658, south of York you’d use the A63 or A64 then use the ring road. Hull would be the M62. The new ring road section from Thorpe Park to Roundhay has made quite a bit of difference. All of these roads are good A roads.

The roads in parts of East Yorkshire are crap, yes, but that’s the same wherever you’re travelling to.

Nothing wrong with the A1079 outside rush hour. It's about to get another bit of dual carriageway too.

 

[westv]

North of York you’d use the A59/A658, south of York you’d use the A63 or A64 then use the ring road. Hull would be the M62. The new ring road section from Thorpe Park to Roundhay has made quite a bit of difference. All of these roads are good A roads.

The roads in parts of East Yorkshire are crap, yes, but that’s the same wherever you’re travelling to.

Still takes forever to get there or any other "close" airport

LBA 1' 45"
EMA 1' 55"
MAN 2' 15"
BHX 2' 40"

 

[pug1]

Still takes forever to get there or any other "close" airport

LBA 1' 45"
EMA 1' 55"
MAN 2' 15"
BHX 2' 40"

From where?

West of Hull to LBA in rush hour 1 hour 10 minutes, EMA 1 hour 20 mins, MAN 1:45 and BHX 2-2:30. HUY 20 mins. DSA (when it was open) 45 mins. Most of those are journeys I make on a monthly basis at least.

But this is not the point. The less densely populated areas with lower economic output will almost always have to travel to the larger urban centres for their flights. Just simple demand driven supply. Sheffield is a bit of an outlier being a large city, but whilst it doesn’t have an airport at its immediate vicinity, it is blessed with choice of airports including Manchester which, although most people will complain about it, it does offer the most flight options in the North and it always will.

You’re better looking at access to population. West Yorkshire is something like 2-2.5 million people plus the more wealthy North Yorkshire populous within easy reach of LBA. South Yorkshire 1.4 million, many of those can get to EMA relatively easily. East Midlands airport around 10 million within an hours drive. DSA claim 4-6 million within an hours drive (depending on who is talking) but that contains a significant amount of overlap with better served airports. Technically HUY has a larger uncontested core catchment area than DSA.

So although I share anybody’s frustration with getting to LBA (particularly during the school run/rush hour!), there’s no point kicking against it. Much better to support improved surface access as it’s highly unlikely Leeds will get a new airport, but it’s equally unlikely that should DSA reopen it will be able to offer anything close to what it’s competitors do.

It’s all complex, but major airports at larger cities have a gravitational effect, those that don’t have that tend to struggle.

 

[westv]

From where?

West of Hull to LBA in rush hour 1 hour 10 minutes, EMA 1 hour 20 mins, MAN 1:45 and BHX 2-2:30. HUY 20 mins. DSA (when it was open) 45 mins. Most of those are journeys I make on a monthly basis at least.

I have no idea where your west of Hull is (Howden, Brough??) but my times are based on starting from my house in east Hull.

 

[pug1]

I have no idea where your west of Hull is (Howden, Brough??) but my times are based on starting from my house in east Hull.

West Hull villages. Unfortunately East Hull, whilst not at the end of the world you can certainly see it from there. Unless they were to reopen Hedon Aerodrome (or Brough or Leconfield if you know your local airport history) you will always have to travel a fair distance to get to an airport that handles lots of flights. It’s why i think the KLM service out of Humberside is an under sold gem of this region. One stop and you can be in New York or Hong Kong.

 

[mpthomson]

West Hull villages. Unfortunately East Hull, whilst not at the end of the world you can certainly see it from there. Unless they were to reopen Hedon Aerodrome (or Brough or Leconfield if you know your local airport history) you will always have to travel a fair distance to get to an airport that handles lots of flights. It’s why i think the KLM service out of Humberside is an under sold gem of this region. One stop and you can be in New York or Hong Kong.

Indeed and as such it's better linked for scheduled flights than much of the north.

 

[westv]

Indeed and as such it's better linked for scheduled flights than much of the north.

I guess it depends.
How long would it take to get to, say, JFK from Humberside via Schiphol compared to going via Heathrow or Gatwick (or MAN if you can fly direct from there). And price difference?

 

[Killingworth]

I guess it depends.
How long would it take to get to, say, JFK from Humberside via Schiphol compared to going via Heathrow or Gatwick (or MAN if you can fly direct from there). And price difference?

About 20 years ago my son lived to the west side of Hull and used Humberside to fly anywhere. Schiphol and Paris were first destinations back then. Missed his return flight one day but made it home via Aberdeen!

 

[westv]

About 20 years ago my son lived to the west side of Hull and used Humberside to fly anywhere. Schiphol and Paris were first destinations back then. Missed his return flight one day but made it home via Aberdeen!

That would put me off. One leg being cancelled or late could throw the whole thing out.

 

[Killingworth]

That would put me off. One leg being cancelled or late could throw the whole thing out.

Made an interesting experience, but he did get home the same evening. Small plane, only a curtain between passenger cabin and cockpit so he could see the runway ahead. Very friendly service to and from Humberside.

 

[pug1]

I guess it depends.
How long would it take to get to, say, JFK from Humberside via Schiphol compared to going via Heathrow or Gatwick (or MAN if you can fly direct from there). And price difference?

HUY to JFK is around 10 hours including the change in Amsterdam. Check in a hour before at Humberside. 20-30 mins to the airport. Really depends on how you do it. I’ve done Brisbane via AMS and Hong Kong, purely because I hate the long drive after a long-haul flight.

But you do of course have the choice not to use it and go direct from Manchester or more likely Heathrow. You will never get to those destinations direct from Yorkshire.

 

[mpthomson]

I guess it depends.
How long would it take to get to, say, JFK from Humberside via Schiphol compared to going via Heathrow or Gatwick (or MAN if you can fly direct from there). And price difference?

I wouldn't mind if it took an hour or two longer for the convenience of initial journey time and particularly journey back afterwards. Plus parking is much cheaper and doesn't require bus journeys to the terminal etc. Flight ticket price isn't that different either.

Certainly once you look at travelling to LHR or Gatwick there's very little difference in terms of time in total.

 

[thejuggler]

I did a New York flight last year from Leeds Bradford via Dublin.

Left home at 6am for a flight just after 8am. Hour flight to Dublin, an hour to get through US immigration in Dublin, which unlike the US is efficient as they don't want passengers to miss connecting flights.

Had I flown direct from Manchester the time spent transiting Dublin would have been taken with the extra time needed to drive to Manchester at rush hour, getting from the car park to the terminal, plus the JFK immigration lottery. Will it be 30 minutes or 3 hours!?

With Aer Lingus and pre clearance exiting Newark was no different to an internal US flight, off plane and bags collected in half an hour.

However for me the real bonus was on the return. I was home within 45 minutes of the flight from Dublin landing, from Manchester it would once again have been the M62 at rush hour after getting back to the car.

 

[westv]

Has anybody tried the HUY route for airports in Europe? Madrid for example?

 

[Bantamzen]

I did a New York flight last year from Leeds Bradford via Dublin.

Left home at 6am for a flight just after 8am. Hour flight to Dublin, an hour to get through US immigration in Dublin, which unlike the US is efficient as they don't want passengers to miss connecting flights.

Had I flown direct from Manchester the time spent transiting Dublin would have been taken with the extra time needed to drive to Manchester at rush hour, getting from the car park to the terminal, plus the JFK immigration lottery. Will it be 30 minutes or 3 hours!?

With Aer Lingus and pre clearance exiting Newark was no different to an internal US flight, off plane and bags collected in half an hour.

However for me the real bonus was on the return. I was home within 45 minutes of the flight from Dublin landing, from Manchester it would once again have been the M62 at rush hour after getting back to the car.

I've been wondering about doing similar. I fancy a trip to NYC and even with the transfer at Dublin this sounds good!

 

[pug1]

Has anybody tried the HUY route for airports in Europe? Madrid for example?

I’ve done Copenhagen and Berlin. All very straightforward and a nice easy transit in Amsterdam. Don’t forget as it’s a seamless interline you check your bags in at Humberside and get them back at your final destination. Certainly beats the battle of the M62 to get to Manchester or worse, the trek to Heathrow! Price wise it’s probably not as competitive, but that’s just how it is. You have the option, and it’s a great option to have!

 

[westv]

How reliable are KLM?

I had a nose at one trip. Business class to Malaga next April - £2,993. I'm booking it.

 

[westv]

North of York you’d use the A59/A658, south of York you’d use the A63 or A64 then use the ring road. Hull would be the M62. The new ring road section from Thorpe Park to Roundhay has made quite a bit of difference. All of these roads are good A roads.

The roads in parts of East Yorkshire are crap, yes, but that’s the same wherever you’re travelling to.

But don't those routes still involve "twisty" country roads at the western end? The Eastern end isn't the issue as we have the A63/M62.

 

[Killingworth]

But don't those routes still involve "twisty" country roads at the western end? The Eastern end isn't the issue as we have the A63/M62.

Which lead to the M60 and M56 to Manchester Airport.

 

[westv]

Which lead to the M60 and M56 to Manchester Airport.

Which nobody likes going to lol!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

But don't those routes still involve "twisty" country roads at the western end?

Not really, the A59 and A658 route around the south of Harrogate is a good quality trunk road, certainly as far as Pool-in-Wharfedale. Even the A64 between Aberford and Whinmoor is decent enough really.

I think people forget that LBA is ten miles northwest of Leeds, so it is quite a way across the city for people coming from South/East Yorkshire. Hull-Manchester Airport is only about 40 miles further than Hull-LBA. From where my folks live between Bradford and Halifax it’s really not that much further to Liverpool and Manchester as it is to LBA.

 

[pug1]

Which nobody likes going to lol!!

But when they’re offered the choice it doesn’t get taken up. When DSA was open something like 1.8 million passengers from South Yorkshire continued to use Manchester every year. Cannot emphasise just how much of a risk it is for an airline to open new routes, this risk is compounded when it comes to opening a new base and further still when the airport they are starting from has a proven record of not filling flights.

So what’s the answer? Encourage the facilitation of growth at existing airports where airlines are open to developing, and improve surface access to LBA/MAN for passengers in South and East Yorkshire.

 

[Killingworth]

But when they’re offered the choice it doesn’t get taken up. When DSA was open something like 1.8 million passengers from South Yorkshire continued to use Manchester every year. Cannot emphasise just how much of a risk it is for an airline to open new routes, this risk is compounded when it comes to opening a new base and further still when the airport they are starting from has a proven record of not filling flights.

So what’s the answer? Encourage the facilitation of growth at existing airports where airlines are open to developing, and improve surface access to LBA/MAN for passengers in South and East Yorkshire.

And for the East Riding and North Lincolnshire concentrate on reviving services from Humberside now its nearest competitor has closed.

 

[pug1]

And for the East Riding and North Lincolnshire concentrate on reviving services from Humberside now its nearest competitor has closed.

I would agree, but sadly that ship appears to have sailed. Currently no impetus to do this whilst the future of DSA is still up in the air (or being prolonged depending on how you look at it), as the level of investment required would be tough to justify if that traffic was once again pinched should Doncaster Council be successful in their ambitions.

Also, the owners are based in Texas, have very little interest in or knowledge of the local area (they bought it as it’s part of their Search and Rescue Contract) and the minority shareholder, North Lincolnshire Council, are both very poor at holding them to account and also have divided loyalty with the promises of a major intercontinental airport being reopened on their doorstep.

Needs someone to provide a wake up call. Humberside contributes far more to the regional economy in its current form than DSA ever did, and it could be taken off the hands of Bristow for less than 10% of the value of the proposed tender from Doncaster Council to yet to be appointed winner to be DSA airport operator.

Let that sink in for a while and understand then why I am so against DSA getting any more money ploughed into it. It would take much less than £50million to be invested into Humberside and this would provide it with the necessary infrastructure to handle increased passenger traffic and it has proven viability in that sector in the past. It would also break even at a much more realistic and sustainable passenger throughput and has a solid reason for being in that it services the offshore sector.

 

[Killingworth]

I would agree, but sadly that ship appears to have sailed. Currently no impetus to do this whilst the future of DSA is still up in the air (or being prolonged depending on how you look at it), as the level of investment required would be tough to justify if that traffic was once again pinched should Doncaster Council be successful in their ambitions.

Also, the owners are based in Texas, have very little interest in or knowledge of the local area (they bought it as it’s part of their Search and Rescue Contract) and the minority shareholder, North Lincolnshire Council, are both very poor at holding them to account and also have divided loyalty with the promises of a major intercontinental airport being reopened on their doorstep.

Needs someone to provide a wake up call. Humberside contributes far more to the regional economy in its current form than DSA ever did, and it could be taken off the hands of Bristow for less than 10% of the value of the proposed tender from Doncaster Council to yet to be appointed winner to be DSA airport operator.

Let that sink in for a while and understand then why I am so against DSA getting any more money ploughed into it. It would take much less than £50million to be invested into Humberside and this would provide it with the necessary infrastructure to handle increased passenger traffic and it has proven viability in that sector in the past. It would also break even at a much more realistic and sustainable passenger throughput and has a solid reason for being in that it services the offshore sector.

And has regular direct rail connections less than 3 miles away at Barnetby from as far as Leicester, Nottingham, Lincoln, Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool

It's a bit muddy but I have walked it.

 

[pug1]

T

And has regular direct rail connections less than 3 miles away at Barnetby from as far as Leicester, Nottingham, Lincoln, Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool

It's a bit muddy but I have walked it.

And has regular direct rail connections less than 3 miles away at Barnetby from as far as Leicester, Nottingham, Lincoln, Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool

It's a bit muddy but I have walked it.

True, but in fairness purpose built airport rail links are pretty much a non viable proposition for most regional airports until they reach something like 10 million passengers per year throughputs. So like DSA, even though the line runs fairly close to the airport boundary, there is really no impetus to put a station there, not least because it’s unlikely to receive support from the rail operators. ISTR Teesside aorpprt railway station was the least used in the U.K.?

This is the problem you have when you get local authorities and public bodies meddling in an industry that is fundamentally private sector led profit driven in nature. They go to where the market is and it has been proven that the market cannot support an airport the side of which Doncaster council would like it to be/what it needs to be to break even.

 

[Killingworth]

True, but in fairness purpose built airport rail links are pretty much a non viable proposition for most regional airports until they reach something like 10 million passengers per year throughputs. So like DSA, even though the line runs fairly close to the airport boundary, there is really no impetus to put a station there, not least because it’s unlikely to receive support from the rail operators. ISTR Teesside aorpprt railway station was the least used in the U.K.?

This is the problem you have when you get local authorities and public bodies meddling in an industry that is fundamentally private sector led profit driven in nature. They go to where the market is and it has been proven that the market cannot support an airport the side of which Doncaster council would like it to be/what it needs to be to break even.

I've seen taxis at Barnetby clearly coming from or going to the airport but it needs a lot of taxis to justify a minibus transfer let alone a full rail link. Loadings on buses to DSA were low so plans to create an ECML diversion were hallucinatory.

 

[pug1]

I've seen taxis at Barnetby clearly coming from or going to the airport but it needs a lot of taxis to justify a minibus transfer let alone a full rail link. Loadings on buses to DSA were low so plans to create an ECML diversion were hallucinatory.

Exactly, when MAG owned the majority share in Humberside I think they even shrugged off the proximity of the railway line as something of little importance. Of course they did highlight the accessibility of Barnetby, but they knew that focussing more on the rather excellent road surface access was a more worthwhile effort. Within 60 minutes there will be around 1.5 to 2 million people, for most of those Humberside is the closest airport. Same cannot be said for Finningley that, whilst undoubtably having access to more people, the more people it was closer to also had the options of bigger airports. Was the reason Humberside was so popular with the old inclusive tour operators of days gone by! And why it would have been an excellent place for a Ryanair and TUI base. Obviously wasn’t to be when DSA opened and cannibalised the market.

 

[westv]

But when they’re offered the choice it doesn’t get taken up. When DSA was open something like 1.8 million passengers from South Yorkshire continued to use Manchester every year.

It would be interesting to know why that estimated 1.8m chose Manchester rather than Doncaster.
We can only guess though.
I think one might have been no flights from Doncaster to where they wanted to go but I am guessing.