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DOO: what method do you prefer?

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Bletchleyite

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First of all I should state that this thread is NOT a pro/anti DOO debate and not a place for related antagonism/arguments. I'd ask the mods, if they would, to delete any posts which take it this way. This is about existing DOO routes.

A question for drivers of DOO or anyone else with an interest - what method(s) of DOO dispatch do you prefer and in what contexts?

I guess the options are:
1. Dispatchers and CD/RA
2. Convex mirrors
3. Platform based cameras with on-train display
4. Platform based cameras with screens on the platform (used to be common on London Underground)
5. On-train cameras
6. On-tram wing mirrors (don't think there are any UK heavy rail applications)

I suspect most will prefer 1, but what of the others? Obviously practicality varies, e.g. convex mirrors aren't going to be of use for a 12-car behemoth on a curved platform.
 
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43066

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1 is by far the best, 2 likely the worst (I have no direct experience but have heard mirrors no longer meet current standards, can cause distortion and are subject to being obscured by ice, rainwater etc.) with the others somewhere in between.

Another option is looking back from the cab which we used to do at my previous operator if we were in any doubt/monitors were out etc. obviously this is only possible on stock with cab droplights and at straight platforms.
 

Fred Dinenage

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A question…which routes preclude the use of DOO? Is it for TCB only, etc? Any reasons it can’t be introduced in some area is basically what I’m asking.
 

Watershed

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A question…which routes preclude the use of DOO? Is it for TCB only, etc? Any reasons it can’t be introduced in some area is basically what I’m asking.
There are lines without TCB which have DOO services (and historically there were far more examples).

The main requirement, then as now, is a continuous radio connection to the signaller.
 

Watershed

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So, GSM-R is enough?
That's one of the essential prerequisites, yes. But of course there are other requirements too - e.g. around platform lighting (if you're going to use anything that involves cameras or mirrors).
 

Bald Rick

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You missed option 7 - look back (although I suspect it will not be warmly favoured!)
 

43066

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Rolling stock with cameras and monitors (or platform monitors but hardy likely this will be added), then lighting etc. radio connection and also it needs to be in the relevant Ts and Cs of staff. It still isn’t in many cases.

(This is in reply to @Fred Dinenage)

You missed option 7 - look back (although I suspect it will not be warmly favoured!)

Beat you to it (post #2) :)
 

DanNCL

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In order of preference, as someone who isn't a driver:
1
5
4
3
2
6

There's another option, keep the guard ;) (but that's a debate for elsewhere!)
 

Bletchleyite

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You missed option 7 - look back (although I suspect it will not be warmly favoured!)

Thanks. It's not in common primary use, though, is it? Other than Windsor, but that's a bit of an exception as there are no intermediate stations and the driver has to change ends anyway so often does it like a guard before sitting down to drive, and I think at Slough there's a bloke with a bat anyway.

Your other-other emergency option 8 is to walk the train using porter buttons or the Class 700 software equivalent (which I believe disables the open buttons but leaves the close buttons working), though not every train is so fitted.
 

busestrains

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First of all I should state that this thread is NOT a pro/anti DOO debate and not a place for related antagonism/arguments. I'd ask the mods, if they would, to delete any posts which take it this way. This is about existing DOO routes.

A question for drivers of DOO or anyone else with an interest - what method(s) of DOO dispatch do you prefer and in what contexts?

I guess the options are:
1. Dispatchers and CD/RA
2. Convex mirrors
3. Platform based cameras with on-train display
4. Platform based cameras with screens on the platform (used to be common on London Underground)
5. On-train cameras
6. On-tram wing mirrors (don't think there are any UK heavy rail applications)

I suspect most will prefer 1, but what of the others? Obviously practicality varies, e.g. convex mirrors aren't going to be of use for a 12-car behemoth on a curved platform.
You forgot a seventh method. The driver stepping out of the cab on to the platform and looking down the train while standing on the platform. This method was used on the Great Northern network with the 313s at a couple of stations. Now these are withdrawn i am not sure that there is anywhere that still uses this method.

Then there is also the eight option of looking back by sticking your head out of the cab that 43066 and Bald Rick mentioned. I am not sure if this is used anywhere any more.

So these are two other methods. I doubt either are very popular though.
 

800 Driver

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You forgot a seventh method. The driver stepping out of the cab on to the platform and looking down the train while standing on the platform. This method was used on the Great Northern network with the 313s at a couple of stations. Now these are withdrawn i am not sure that there is anywhere that still uses this method.

Then there is also the eight option of looking back by sticking your head out of the cab that 43066 and Bald Rick mentioned. I am not sure if this is used anywhere any more.

So these are two other methods. I doubt either are very popular though.
Look back is still used on turbos at certain stations across the GWR DOO network
 

whoosh

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1. Dispatchers and CD/RA
Great for terminal stations where the entrance to the platforms is at one end. Platform staff can see passengers running so can judge when to push the CD button.
When RA is given though, that's it. You can't stop a train once it's been given.
Can take a long time at certain stations.*
2. Convex mirrors
Rubbish. Trying to stop the train to line up with them, and the variables with the seat height in the cab, and looking through the windscreen with the wiper on. Neck ache. Rubbish. Trains are too long now anyway mostly.
3. Platform based cameras with on-train display
Crossrail chose this, and London Underground do as well. On the tube, the driver gets the display switch on when on approach to the platform, and throughout departure.
I've never experienced this method.
4. Platform based cameras with screens on the platform (used to be common on London Underground)
Not LU:
Rubbish. Prone to sunlight reflecting off the train and then off the screens, and then you cant see a thing. Have to line up through the narrow side cab window.
Instructor can't see very well if training - there was a trap and drag on South Eastern somewhere a few years ago...
LU: The casing seemed better designed to mitigate reflections from sunlight, and also the cameras were calibrated with markings on the platforms to achieve the proper coverage. Seems a world away from the Network Rail ones I've seen set up wrong, or where the image is upside down!
5. On-train cameras
700s great. Can tap the image to enlarge and fill the whole screen if you need to check in shadows etc. Other stock you can't though, and 377s are laggy and stuttery - really really poor.
Referring to 1.* It gives me no pleasure to say it, but East Croydon is much faster to escape from now it's self dispatch with in-cab monitors (class 700) instead of platform staff with dispatch bat and RA.
6. On-tram wing mirrors (don't think there are any UK heavy rail applications)
Not upto scratch beyond a single coach length I would say.
7. Look back.
Neck ache. It's actually a repetitive strain injury. And it really is. I'm glad we got new trains and screens got put in their cabs.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks. It's not in common primary use, though, is it? Other than Windsor, but that's a bit of an exception as there are no intermediate stations and the driver has to change ends anyway so often does it like a guard before sitting down to drive, and I think at Slough there's a bloke with a bat anyway.

it was in regular use at several suburban stations in Anglia until the 345s / 720s turned up.

I assume it may still be in use on Southeastern too, although don’t know.
 

warwickshire

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Look back is still used on turbos at certain stations across the GWR DOO network
More interesting working is at Banbury station if from platform one and two going to Bicester on a chiltern railways turbo 165or turbostar 168 service train is dispatched. Or a gwr 165 to Didcot Parkway also dispatched with a dispatcher. With dispatcher tipping the Driver and Driver looking out. If it is a 800 802 of platform two dispatcher shows light to driver for dispatch via the trains CCTV cameras for doo dispatch. Note no dispatcher the evening class 800 802 service from platform two to London Paddington starts from Oxford.
Yet platform four at Banbury for local Chiltern services and Gwr services to Didcot Parkway and London Marylebone respectively is the Doo CCTV screen.
Chiltern 165 and Chiltern 168 to London Marylebone can use platform two and so do Gwr 165 turbos and quite often a look back occurs. Note on the chiltern railways services after the Train Manager gets off they do assist the driver by remaining at the rear whilst driver looks out. Banbury is quite a interesting station for the above dispatch matters. Also from the platforms at Banbury sometimes the gwr turbo drivers use the cctv from the turbo as well. Interesting workings at Banbury.
 

busestrains

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Another method to add that uses dispatchers other than CD/RA is the flag or bat method where the dispatcher waves a flag or bat at the drivers window. This is used at Brighton and Haywards Heath and probably a few other stations too.
 

O L Leigh

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I'd like a guard, please. ;)

I never really liked any methods of DOO dispatch and was always acutely aware that whichever method was used there were always shortcomings. Given the shift in emphasis over the last few years to safe dispatch and platform safety in general, it was always in the back of my mind that I may be unaware of any incident that may happen once the train started to move. That said, thanks to be sufficiently paranoid, I never had any dispatch-related incidents while I was working DOO services, although others did.

Staffed dispatch with CD/RA was probably the safest but, as someone has said up-thread, once the RA goes up it cannot be taken back so there is no way for the platform staff to stop a DOO service once it's started moving. I'm glad that new rolling stock is consigning "legacy" methods of DOO dispatch to the history books. I disliked "look back" working less than platform mirrors/monitors, because platforms where this method was used were generally straight enough that I could continue to look back once the train was in motion and still see the length of the train, whereas once you move away from a platform mirror/monitor you can no longer see anything.

On the subject of platform mirrors/monitors, the key was to get correctly lined-up. Most days this was fine, but sometimes you'd get a bit of slip and stop a little way past the ideal location, and then you had a compromised view. There was only ever one mirror on my routes (White Hart Lane on the Down, if memory serves) and it was awful. It was poorly maintained, often dirty and appeared to have come direct from a fairground Hall of Mirrors. I'd prefer to get out on the platform to get a better view. The monitors were also of variable quality, although the later generation of colour monitors were generally clearer and more reliable than the older black and white versions. As with any camera and monitor system, they could be susceptible to showing a poor view due to bad weather or poor lighting conditions.

I've never tried the LU system of platform cameras and in-cab monitors, but I have used bodyside cameras with in-cab montitors. I have gone on record in the past to highlight the shortcomings of this system and felt that it represented an increase in driver workload. I recall that some new standards were laid down for these systems a while back and would be interested to know if these have improved matters compared to the older pre-standards set-up I used. I have previously called this the latest least worst solution to a problem that hasn't yet received the necessary attention, and I stand by that description.

Wing mirrors have never been tried in the UK, primarily because they would most likely be out of gauge and would offer no advantages over "look back" dispatch.

7. Look back.
Neck ache. It's actually a repetitive strain injury. And it really is. I'm glad we got new trains and screens got put in their cabs.

That depends on whether or not you have a safe method of working in the cab. I found that I could do "look back" without straining if I sat slightly sideways in the cab so that I didn't have to twist so far to get a good view. However, we were instructed that we should not attempt "look back" from a seated position, but rather stand and carry out dispatch in order to reduce the risk of injury. This would be particularly important on stock like Cl319s and Cl321s where the driver's seat is that little bit further from the droplight than is the case with gangway stock like Cl317s.
 
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Driver Only Operation and Driver Controlled Operation both mean the train driver is in control of the opening and closing of the train's doors but there is some confusion about whether Driver Only Operation means that there are still second onboard staff (usually referred to a Driver Controlled Operation) or that the driver is the only member of staff on the train

Webb replied: “But the guards are still there.”
Lynch hit back: “The guards aren’t there, they proposed to remove them.”
Webb added: “No, driver operated only trains surely have a second person on the train it’s just that they’re not operating the doors.”
Lynch replied: “No they don’t always have a second person on the train.
“Most DOO [Driver Only Operation] services don’t have anyone on the train apart from the driver.”

The following statement from the Office or Road and Rail is technically correct but does not say whether or not there are second onboard staff
Driver Controlled Operation of passenger trains (DCO), sometimes referred to as Driver Only Operation, is where the train driver is in control of the opening and closing of the train's doors.

From the Rail Standards and Safety Board
Supplying good quality information to passengers on driver-only-operated trains (T1025)
Driver Only Operation (DOO) trains only have a driver on-board. This project aimed to identify and recommend ways of improving the delivery of information to passengers on DOO services and produce a good practice guide.
Driver controlled operation (DCO) describes a way of operating trains where only the train driver has responsibility for opening and closing the doors and dispatching the train from a station.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have used bodyside cameras with in-cab montitors. I have gone on record in the past to highlight the shortcomings of this system and felt that it represented an increase in driver workload. I recall that some new standards were laid down for these systems a while back and would be interested to know if these have improved matters compared to the older pre-standards set-up I used. I have previously called this the latest least worst solution to a problem that hasn't yet received the necessary attention, and I stand by that description.

One thing I've wondered is if adding another screen showing a camera mounted in the ceiling in the middle of the vestibule looking out of the door (covering its full width and height) would be useful, as it might make a potential problem inside the train (e.g. someone rushing to get off late who could potentially be trapped) visible?

Wing mirrors have never been tried in the UK, primarily because they would most likely be out of gauge and would offer no advantages over "look back" dispatch.

They were used on the original Metrolink stock and folded in automatically before the tram set off.
 

O L Leigh

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One thing I've wondered is if adding another screen showing a camera mounted in the ceiling in the middle of the vestibule looking out of the door (covering its full width and height) would be useful, as it might make a potential problem inside the train (e.g. someone rushing to get off late who could potentially be trapped) visible?

Electrostar units certainly had a camera inside the coach showing the interior of the vestibule, although not precisely the view you describe, as part of the CCTV system. This would activate automatically in the event of a passcom being operated at any door. However, this could not be accessed during dispatch.

Yes, perhaps it might help. However, if you've an 8 car train, you're already having to deal with 8 images of the outside of the train. Adding 8 more showing the interior of the vestibule would likely cause overload.

They were used on the original Metrolink stock and folded in automatically before the tram set off.

Sure, but that's not heavy rail. Of course, folding mirrors could also have been applied, but it really doesn't improve matters and is no better than "look back".
 

AM9

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Electrostar units certainly had a camera inside the coach showing the interior of the vestibule, although not precisely the view you describe, as part of the CCTV system. This would activate automatically in the event of a passcom being operated at any door. However, this could not be accessed during dispatch.

Yes, perhaps it might help. However, if you've an 8 car train, you're already having to deal with 8 images of the outside of the train. Adding 8 more showing the interior of the vestibule would likely cause overload.
Surely with 2 pairs of doors in most cars, that would be 16 vestibule cameras per 8-car set.
 

O L Leigh

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Surely with 2 pairs of doors in most cars, that would be 16 vestibule cameras per 8-car set.

Thanks for correcting my maths.

It just adds to the concern that so many additional images are likely to cause driver overload and thereby undermine any potential safety gains.
 

Andrew*Debbie

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A question…which routes preclude the use of DOO? Is it for TCB only, etc? Any reasons it can’t be introduced in some area is basically what I’m asking.

Here in North Wales we have several stations with short platforms. In most cases the train stops with the driver well beyond the end of platform barrier. The guard operates a single door near the centre of the train. (Local door operation or LDO) If the stop is unusually busy, the guard sometimes opens a second door.

EDIT: There is automatic selective door opening, but North Wales is not set up for that.

Even if a driver could safely operate a single door, you need a guard to direct passengers to the correct door both on the train and at the platform. Otherwise passengers will miss their stop or be left at the platform.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Here in North Wales we have several stations with short platforms. In most cases the train stops with the driver well beyond the end of platform barrier. The guard operates a single door near the centre of the train. If the stop is unusually busy, the guard sometimes opens a second door.

I don't know if a driver can safely operate doors at a short platform.

They can. ASDO (Automatic Selective Door Operation) does exactly this.

Even if a driver could safely operate a single door, you need a guard to direct passengers to the correct door both on the train and at the platform.

The onboard passenger information system can do this on board, and you can see which doors open when you're on the platform. Local door is a messy bodge compared to doing it properly with ASDO.
 

cf111

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As a passenger/someone with a general interest I feel that the safest (and therefore preferable) method of DOO is no 1, with platform staff and CD/RA indicators.
 

185

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8. Press the close button, just drive off in notch five and take Mrs Goggins 30mph past the picket fence, then the RSSB will say it's all her reckless fault, the doors went beebeebeebeep, it's all been rishk ashesshed and it's perfectly safe. Unless there's a guard, then it's deffo that evil guard's fault.
 

43066

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8. Press the close button, just drive off in notch five and take Mrs Goggins 30mph past the picket fence, then the RSSB will say it's all her reckless fault, the doors went beebeebeebeep, it's all been rishk ashesshed and it's perfectly safe.

DOO early 1990s style….

Perhaps they should bring it back! If you’re stupid enough to ignore the hustle alarm, or lean on the train when it starts to move, and come a cropper, that’s just Darwinism!!!
 
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