Doors opening before train comes to a stop on the Bakerloo

[Fermiboson]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

 

[800001]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

Is half a second even noticeable?

 

[bramling]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

The doors are able to be released once the train drops below a certain speed, which will be very low. The trains are designed like that, so it’s normal behaviour. Though nowadays it isn’t officially regarded as good practice, in olden times it was practically encouraged.

 

[starlight73]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

 

[Bald Rick]

yes it happens on the Vic Line. Happened to me today (also on the Bakerloo).

 

[Dstock7080]

The doors are able to be released once the train drops below a certain speed, which will be very low.

also within range of the CSDE Correct Side Door Enable loop.
It cannot be done outside of this loop unless a further override is activated

 

[bramling]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

I think all the newer stocks do it, though not sure about S stock.

However you won’t see it on the Jubilee and Northern lines as the signalling system carries out various checks before enabling a door release. Hence why on these lines there’s an infuriating pause before the doors open. Same on the CBTC parts of the sub-surface lines.

In earlier days it was certainly possible for 95 stock doors to open quite prematurely.

Think of it as saving a second or two at every station, that’s potentially a minute saved on the overall end-to-end run, which may well be the difference between being able to fit an extra train in each hour. One wonders if the Victoria Line would in fact be able to run their 36tph *without* this quirk.

 

[stuu]

It's a feature, not a bug. Some of the drivers of the old C Stock were very good at timing it so that you could step off very slightly before the train had stopped, if you were in a hurry. The older trains in Paris would open the doors well before stopping, so you could get off before the train had stopped.

 

[IndianPacific]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

The Class 700s out in NR land can do it when they’re in ATO, but it’s timed so the doors open exactly as the train stops, people won’t notice the doors releasing fractions of a second before that.

 

[WF4HA5HE]

Whats london undergrounds stance on the doors being released before the train has stopped? I know it may only be for a second at low speed but at any TOC that would be classed as a door open in traffic?

 

[Turtle]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

Surprised anyone would notice.

 

[Fermiboson]

Surprised anyone would notice.

If you are staring at the floor near the sliding doors it is very easy to spot the motion contrast. Certainly I wasn’t the only one who was somewhat surprised.

 

[Towers]

If you are staring at the floor near the sliding doors it is very easy to spot the motion contrast. Certainly I wasn’t the only one who was somewhat surprised.

The vast majority won’t have been at all surprised, this is entirely normal on the Bakerloo.

 

[bramling]

Whats london undergrounds stance on the doors being released before the train has stopped? I know it may only be for a second at low speed but at any TOC that would be classed as a door open in traffic?

Bit of a grey area. Seems to be frowned upon officially (a driver wouldn’t want to do it during an assessment or road test), but kind of recognised that it’s something that is exceptionally low risk but does generate some considerable performance benefit.

So essentially unless or until an incident happens, status quo will prevail, which seems fair enough to me.

Indeed some older stocks are arranged so that not only can the doors be opened just as the train comes to a stand, but the driver can drop the handle at low speed without the deadman activating providing the handle is in particular braking position. So the trains in the past have essentially been designed to facilitate this - the handle can be dropped which in turn allows the driver to have his fingers ready on the door buttons. One of the Video 125 drivers eye view productions (I forget which one) clearly shows the driver doing this.

 

[Mawkie]

Bit of a grey area. Seems to be frowned upon officially (a driver wouldn’t want to do it during an assessment or road test), but kind of recognised that it’s something that is exceptionally low risk but does generate some considerable performance benefit.

This sums it up perfectly.


(Photo showing the drivers console of a 73 stock train, indicating the position of the door open and close buttons.)

Officially, train ops are required to release the deadman's handle and use both hands to press the (red) door open buttons. In reality, most drivers will save time by using one hand and two fingers to open the doors.

I had no idea, until this thread, that someone could possibly take offence at such a trivial matter, but having handled customer complaints in a past role, I suppose I should have anticipated that there's always one...

 

[Fermiboson]

I had no idea, until this thread, that someone could possibly take offence at such a trivial matter, but having handled customer complaints in a past role, I suppose I should have anticipated that there's always one...

I have not taken offence at it. I come from a place where this never happens because of widespread installation of platform screen doors and I was curious as to the differences that enable this. Please assume good faith.

 

[zero]

The older trains in Paris would open the doors well before stopping, so you could get off before the train had stopped.

Does this still happen on the Paris metro? I had a feeling doors on RER trains opened before they came to a full stop too, but can't remember, as the last time I took one was 6 years ago

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Does this still happen on the Paris metro?

Yes and at an earlier stage of arrival whilst travelling at a higher speed. You can easily open the doors and step onto the platform while the train is moving at about a walking pace, as compared to the tube where at the point a bag will fit through the opening doors, the train has already stopped.

 

[kacper]

Does this still happen on the Paris metro? I had a feeling doors on RER trains opened before they came to a full stop too, but can't remember, as the last time I took one was 6 years ago

Yes and the minimum speed is quite higher than our tube one it seems