Double deck trains in the UK

[Traindesign]

Good comment Mike, lower deck seating is back to back benches 3 wide, this is obviously not a new concept as the CEP's and CIG's had this but its the most efficient use of available space with a little storage thrown in. as stated previously 80% extra seated passengers can be carried in the same space envolope thus avoiding platform and track circuit work which would be required for longer trains in some cases.

 

[thelem]

How do you handle DDA and toilets? Is there a single deck section?

 

[Traindesign]

Yes thelem, at both DM ends there is a single deck area forward of the doors, this is for dissabled access, pushchair access and dissabled toilet. The toilet incidently is my design too, designed not to block up or shed its door unlike the 375's and 377's, i lost count of how many doors i sorted in my 3 years there !!!

 

[ukrob]

I'm genuinely sorry to be a doubter, but if you had this new innovative idea, you wouldn't be on here talking about it .

 

[TGV]

To be fair to Traindesign - I have had a think about it and he has an idea that might need developing, but there is a market for it. I can't blame him for keeping his cards close to his chest.

This isn't a bad place to air an idea. It's not the first or only place I'd use, but I don't see any harm in getting opinions of industry people, passengers or the hardest to please - enthusiasts!

 

[Chris125]

I fear there is a very good reason why someone has resorted to pushing their ideas on an enthusiasts forum. While there may be positives to what's being proposed, its hard not to see a vast number of negatives too. DD's on uk railways, especially where the capacity is needed most, dont make sense - its that simple.

Chris

 

[TGV]

I fear there is a very good reason why someone has resorted to pushing their ideas on an enthusiasts forum. While there may be positives to what's being proposed, its hard not to see a vast number of negatives too. DD's on uk railways, especially where the capacity is needed most, dont make sense - its that simple.

Chris

I agree with your comments from a technical and operational point (as you can probably tell from my earlier posts), but the idea he has could be developed further with more detail and work. It's not what I'd choose as my rolling stock, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate here.

As for getting input from forum members - right or wrong there's no harm in it provided he's not releasing any information that his employers or customers do not wish made public.

 

[Traindesign]

Thanks TGV for the balanced opinion, i can understand a few doubters, after all if this is such a good idea why has nobody else tried it !!! To be honest coming up with and fefining this idea was not the hardest part, the hard part is selling the idea to the TOC's and convincing the powers that be that trains can be purchesed from people other than Siemens and Bombardier (Leave Alstom out i think), as i previously said i have spent 16 years ironing out design issues with stock built by these people, so i know how NOT to build a train.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
As for your design Ill keep an open mind as to how it'll work. I can see why it seems like a good idea but I have reservations as to how practical it'd be in terms of access and hence loading (dwell) times,. I look forward to seeing your ideas though...

I'd like to speculate on the design from what you've said so far. I don't expect a response but it's fun to think...

So, it's an articulated double, with a mid-level loading / unloading middle platform height area at each end of the pair. The articulated bit is bi-level, with carefully offset walkways to allow extra headroom.

Downstairs will have an offset corridor and bays of 4 seats a side with lower headroom.
I'd guess the windows would actually allign with the seats!
Upsatairs will have a walkway of the opposite side (above the downstairs seats).
There'd again be bays of 4 seats a side but you'd probably have to step up to the floor level of these plus the headroom would be a bit limited.
The windows would allign with the seats and would wrap around from the sides onto the roof. That'd give extra light and a sense of space.

The space betweem the offset corridors (in the middle of the coach) could be used for services such as AC ducting and power. It would be a gently tapering box to give the impression of space rather than a square duct. All lighting would be slimline and take little room.
With the use of modern materials, I can see how something like my speculation could be built.


However, and this is biggie:
To get anything like this ordered you've got to get past the EU tendering stage. There's a reason Siemens, Bombardier & Alstom win. They have a) large teams with much experience of writing tenders and b) they know it's a very long game and one where you need to know the right people.

If you're a sole inventor or small company you will need to partner with a big player to have any credibility at the tender stage.

That does all sound negative but if you can see a way forward then I wish you every success.
Cheers!
Jason

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There will be a mock-up before Easter and im hoping to get it to Railtex.

Then I hope I'll see you there with it - I qualify for Railtex entry and have been to every show since they started them...

 

[Traindesign]

Chris, i am not 'pushing' my ideas on anybody, as i have pointed out several times this has already been before the DFT and gauging experts from Lloyds, its really sad to see this attitude from enthusiasts or even worse fellow professionals, to clear another point, i am not working for anybody as i have my own business so there are no conflicts there. It seems almost as if nobody wants to believe its possible just because one of the 4 manufacturers hasnt come up with it!!! The are not interested because they like to build standard vehicles (Electrostar and Juniper for example) and not specials!!

 

[jopsuk]

Hopefully by the time the design is ready this country will actually be ordering rolling stock again- been well over 600 days since an order was placed; the previous record is the 1000 day pre-privatisation drought. Beyond LM's 172s, NXEAs 379s Scotrails 380s and the Pendolino extensions/extra sets I don't think there is any other mainline passenger stock currently on order.

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully by the time the design is ready this country will actually be ordering rolling stock again- been well over 600 days since an order was placed; the previous record is the 1000 day pre-privatisation drought. Beyond LM's 172s, NXEAs 379s Scotrails 380s and the Pendolino extensions/extra sets I don't think there is any other mainline passenger stock currently on order.

The Thameslink/ Crossrail orders will presumably be along before long (long time till they get built, of course), same with the Scotrail EMUs for the Falkirk line presumably?

 

[jopsuk]

presumably, yes, but they've not been placed yet.

 

[tbtc]

It seems almost as if nobody wants to believe its possible just because one of the 4 manufacturers hasnt come up with it!!!

I don't think you can be too surprised at the reaction, given we have little to go on (we don't know whether this is a genuine design or a school project, to be fair).

I think the general mood on here is positive *if* the design stands up, but we're having to take a lot on faith...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

presumably, yes, but they've not been placed yet.

Agreed, I'm just suggesting that at least there are *some* new orders on the horizon. In the "thousand day" period in the '90s we didn't even have that to look forward to.

 

[Greenback]

Chris, i am not 'pushing' my ideas on anybody, as i have pointed out several times this has already been before the DFT and gauging experts from Lloyds, its really sad to see this attitude from enthusiasts or even worse fellow professionals, to clear another point, i am not working for anybody as i have my own business so there are no conflicts there. It seems almost as if nobody wants to believe its possible just because one of the 4 manufacturers hasnt come up with it!!! The are not interested because they like to build standard vehicles (Electrostar and Juniper for example) and not specials!!

What attitude? You asked for feedback and you have got quite a range of comemnts! Although not everyone has been shouting with joy from the rooftops what did you expect?

Overall, the vast majority of comemnts have been positive. Like myself, most of the posters would like to see more detail before coming to a conclusion. My main concern is whether the public will take to it. If it's too radical and travellers don't like it then it would be difficult to convince any TOC to buy such a product.

With the track record of the DfT and railways, the fact that they have looked at the design doesn't really mean a great deal!

 

[Traindesign]

Sorry Greenback i dont mean to be rude, its just some of the expressions used here (pushing my ideas) get to me. I am trying very hard to get the mock-up to Railtex next year, i believe climbing aboard it is better than any drawings!!

 

[Burkitt]

Your design sounds very interesting, I look forward to seeing it when it is released. Is it similar in any way to the concept developed by DCA show on page 13 of this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf ?

Paul

 

[Traindesign]

Hi Paul,
No its not, i have met with a chap called Rutter at DCA in Stratford and this was discussed, there is no space for 2x2 seating on the lower deck in the uk.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry Greenback i dont mean to be rude, its just some of the expressions used here (pushing my ideas) get to me. I am trying very hard to get the mock-up to Railtex next year, i believe climbing aboard it is better than any drawings!!

I hope you can, I'm sure even the doubters will be very interested in seeing the mock up!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You need a valid industry connection to get in to Railtex though....

I guess a lot of people on here will qualify for entry anyway, but for the benefit of any "pure enthusiasts" reading this, unfortunately, entry will not be possible ( unless of course you have a pre-arranged meeting with an exhibitor or something, for example... ) as the general public are, quite simply, not allowed in.


That is a pity, really, as I think it would be very good PR for the industry if they added a couple of public days to the end of the show to allow people to see behind the scenes and just what is involved with railway technology these days.

After all, the Farnborough air show is a trade show that has public days added to the very end.

 

[Greenback]

I'm sure there will be plenty of coverage in the media for those unable to physically attend Railtex.

 

[Traindesign]

Yes getting in there may be a problem, although if im exibiting once i have payed for the stand i'm in ! Cant see Alstom, Bombardier and co being keen though !

 

[EWS 58038]

The capacity is an extra 80% over what we have now

I suppose you intend a triple decker?

The average Double Decker will give you 40 to 45 percent capacity increase per train. If you can get that up to 80 percent without affecting safety regulations and other things (like toilets, luggage space) I would be very interested to see the designs.... so would NS.

Please read what I said about this issue earlier this year on: http://pipsrailway.wordpress.com/

There is hope for London commuters, it’s all about long term vision and investment

A good friend of me and myself are standing on the platform at Hither Green rail station in south east London when an eight car (2×4) networker pulls in to the station. It’s half past eight and in the middle of the morning commute peak when the train doors open. But no one can board the train as it’s already jam packet from top to bottom with conditions even worse then those seen of pigs in the bio-industry.

Not long after a second train enters the station, same conditions and although being full already it has to call at Lewisham as well before entering the endless queue towards London Bridge. It’s no surprise people are complaining and god knows how many times a week they have to face these horrifying conditions. And this is a station served by something like four trains to the capital per hour, perhaps more during the peak period. But what’s the point of a train calling at a station when no one seems to be able to board it anyway?

And after a good twenty minutes we gave up on the train to London and boarded the first one to Sidcup. A decision which saved us a lot of inconvenience when we boarded a train to London a few station calls down the line. We had a seat and when we drove back to the capital and entered Hither Green again people were still not able to board the train in fare payer worthy conditions. After twenty five minutes we were reluctant to find ourselves boarding a crowded, but not extremely overcrowded Capital Connect service to St Pancras.

Today I boarded a train at my local station Almere Centre in the middle of the morning peak towards Amsterdam. The platform is full and I guess some 200 or more are intending to travel on the next service towards our capital city or the airport where this train will terminate. An eight car train enters the station and although this train has called at two large stations before to pick up the workforce Almost everyone can fiend themselves a seat. The revenue protection team is even able to do their round through the train. Four of them do the upper level while the other two do the lower level of this double-decker.
At Amsterdam Central almost six hundred people alight from the train. They were able to read their free newspaper, drink coffee or enjoy the landscape passing by.

You might say that comparing these two situations is like comparing an elephant with a mosquito. But actually the conditions are pretty much the same, it just covers a larger area. Its horrible to drive to work by car in or around Amsterdam. And although Amsterdam itself is not as big as London, the commuters come from places as far as fifty kilometres away. Especially Almere and Lelystad are big commuter hotspots with more then 250.000 people from these two cities to Amsterdam alone. And because driving isn’t an option for many, most use the train. You can accuse the Dutch state owned railway of many things but not for a lack of vision. Almere is to build another 50.000 houses in the next decade and as a response to this the rail corridor to Amsterdam and Schiphol airport is being upgraded to handle twice as many trains before it is actually needed.

In the UK, and especially around London overcrowding is battled by even more fare increases or yet another platform extension. Increasing fares is only good for the company’s cash-flow, but not in the interest of it’s passengers. Platform extensions are only a short term solution but not adequate to cope with the demand expected in the next twenty to thirty years. And although that seems to be far into the future, we have reached that point long since. Ask the commuters at Hither Green what they think about their South Eastern when they are faced with severely overcrowded trains and have to squeeze themselves in on their daily commute to London.
The solution for London can be found in and around Amsterdam. If you don’t have the space for longer trains, or when you faced the limits of your network capacity a while ago, there is still space to expand and gain a good forty five percent increase in available capacity by going up. Add a second deck to your train and magic things will happen. Large doors will allow passengers to board and alight fast, two decks will allow more people to find a seat or to travel by train. The TOC might even use less trains to London, resulting in some capacity relief, the queues to London Bridge are something of the past and as a result travel times to the capital are reduced by an average of 7 minutes per train.

And yes, it will take a long time for this to happen, and it will be as expansive as building Crossrail. But the good thing is that you can order trains from the shelve and get them relatively cheap. You can transport many more people, you can speed up services into London, you can board a train at half past eight in the hight of the morning peak and you can find a seat. And what’s more important, you do have the capacity in place to move London for the next fifty years.

Maarten Otto

 

[j0hn0]

well said.

The issue of double decking will always be considered too expensive if gauge enhancements are to happen. In this country anyway.

Having travelled from Haarlem to Amsterdam every day for a year, the amount of people moved on the train astonishes me.

A full platform emptied every seven minutes, incredible really.

Make do and mend in this country though and fair play to traindesign for doing what he has. We need engineering to come home, we have great minds and great designs, but we need owners of the companies who think like the Dutch, French and the Germans......

Protect national assets

 

[Traindesign]

Well said John0,

Sadly getting an order for this design from a TOC or ROSCO is unlikly as i am not a member of "the club" with the big 3 manufacturers, even though they are not interested in building these trains as they will be deviating from there standerd build, i.e Electrostar, Desiro ect.

 

[bangor-toad]

Sadly getting an order for this design from a TOC or ROSCO is unlikly as i am not a member of "the club" with the big 3 manufacturers, even though they are not interested in building these trains as they will be deviating from there standerd build, i.e Electrostar, Desiro ect.

Traindesign. you are not going to get an order from a TOC or ROSCO. It's that simple.

You come across as a skilled engineer and that you've worked up a good design. As I've said I, like many others here, are genuinely interested in what you've come up with. However this is nowhere near enough to get an order, even if you actually made a full sized viable carriage and exhibt it around.

The simple economics are that the Government orders trains through EU wide tendering and the main manufacturers bid accordingly. Any order will need to be for 100's of carriages and only companies able to tool up for a £50million+ contracts will get pre-qualified. If you have formed your own small company you will not get a look in, regardless of how technically brilliant your solution is.
I think that the MD of CSRE(UK) is a poster on these forums. He represents a major Chinese manufacturer and they haven't yet broken into the UK market. Supplying to the UK rolling stock market is clearly not a simple and easy matter!

To get your idea built and used you will need a major partner - ie one of the major world players. The only possible way for your design to become realised is through licensing the idea. You need to protect your intellectual property and designs, then build a working model (or even full sized wooden mock up) and then go touting it about. If a manufacturer is interested you can then sign a license allowing them to use your ideas. The current "big 3" don't actually care about which design they have - they just want to deliver a profitable solution. That might be your idea...

What I describe above is what I do professionally. It is a slow process but it is the ONLY way a small company can get a new idea into an area that requires multiple £10s of million of investment to build.

Of course, it helps if you have lobbyed DfT to ensure they actually specify a train with capacity requirements that mean a double deck is a necessary solution. Now that is a much longer term job but not one that's impossible. I was loosely invovled with the discussions prior to Hitachi Trains first coming to the UK and I know the glacial timescales that were worked to...

As I said, I am interested in what you've come up with. I just think that you need to seriously reconsider the way in which you try to get it to the market.
Happy to debate further!
Jason

 

[monkey]

...I can see why people are a bit sceptical as we havn't really had anything to look at os its just an idea to us atm. however like everyone I'd be very interested in what the design is when is ready to be viewed.

I think the apx068 has got a point with getting the idea built and used. even new players such as hitachi and hyundai rotem, in the european market have hard time winning tenders, and they have a lot of investment behind them, but least they get their ideas heard and have gained some ground over the years - as with hitachi and their iep bid. I think the only sensible way that would happen is if you could sucessfully pitch to a train builders - and get them to invest and market your idea, not just the usual suspects of bombardier, alsthom and siemens - but the others I've mentioned too. I think thats the only way you'd have fighting chance of having your idea realised, that is assuming its a viable one in the first place...

 

[Traindesign]

Jason, thanks for the very informative contribution, its a very tedious process is tendering, i am aware of the situation and how the process has to be seen to be fair, i can also guess at how it works in reality with the big 4 manufacturers. It just seems a crying shame to my simple brain that a chance to solve the overcrowding problem on our railway has to go abroad, we are a nation of accountants burocrats these days and not engineers.
As i have pointed out in a few previous threads, i have spent 16 years ironing out design issues on builds from the big 4 manufacturers and so i know how not to build a train!

Thanks again for your comments and please dont take any of my comments personaly, they are just bourne of frustration.

Cheers,

Bob.