Double deck trains in the UK

[Traindesign]

I am a rolling stock design engineer, i would be interested to hear the opinion of the people here regarding double deck trains here in the UK. I have an interesting suite of designs which will be launced early next year, these are both for passenger and frieght.

 

[richw]

I am a rolling stock design engineer, i would be interested to hear the opinion of the people here regarding double deck trains here in the UK. I have an interesting suite of designs which will be launced early next year, these are both for passenger and frieght.

wouldnt tunnels be too low for them, but i think they would be great, more seats in a train of the same size, less standing and overcrowding etc

 

[starrymarkb]

Has been tried and wasn't a success
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

 

[WatcherZero]

The HS2 specific trains will be duplex supposedly, up in the air whether the classic compatible will be as well.

 

[thelem]

It could be practical on HS2, although I'd be surprised if that needed the capacity of double deck yet seeing as we're currently doing fine without any line at all.

The two main problems are they are too tall to go under bridges and through tunnels, so would need lots of engineering work (although I believe all new build bridges and tunnels are meant to be big enough for double deck). Particularly a problem on long distance routes due to the number of miles.

The other issue is the loading speed / dwell time - no good having more seats per train if you can't run as many of them. Particularly a problem on metro services due to frequent stops.

 

[LE Greys]

Might just be possible on W10 loading gauge routes. The lower deck would have to be in a well between the bogies, while the upper deck would be squeezed into the space above. Wheelchair spaces, toilets and a few seats would be placed over the bogies at the ends of the coaches on a sort of mezzanine deck. Add air-con ducts, wiring runs and lights, and you probably run out of space, meaning that it might be a bit hard to stand up on the upper deck. There's also the problem of platform clearance, meaning that the lower deck would have to be quite narrow.

It's possible, but hard to do and would have very limited route availability.

 

[Chris125]

Its hard to see how any design squeezed into the UK loading guage, even W10, could offer a big enough increase in capacity to justify the increased dwell times on the surburban routes where they are arguably most needed, let alone the vastly expensive and massively disruptive infrastructure changes required - im afraid they will almost certainly never see use on 'classic' UK lines.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

I'd reckon without compromising capacity so badly that you'd lose ALL the benefits- the dwell time increase would be hugely disproportionate from an awkward design. I'll be interested to see what you come up with

 

[tbtc]

Capacity would be nothing like "double", given the space needed for stairs etc.

Would it be worth doing for a 50% capacity increase and longer "dwell" times?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it seems strange that DB are moving away from double deckers, all the new trains I've seen, including some replacing old double deckers, are single deck. This may however have some connection to the new trains being multiple units whereas the old double deckers are loco hauled.

 

[jopsuk]

It's also perhaps worthwhile noting that despite comedic overcrowding on high-frequecny lines, the Japanese only have double decker trains on Shinkansen and other intercity services- where freqeuncies are lower and longer dwell times acceptable. The ultimate have to be the E4 Series Shinkansen- the seated capacity of a double formation is 1634- in a 400m, 150mph train. A double TGV Duplex is about the same lenght, but "only" carries 1090 passengers (all seated in both cases).

Both are much wider as well as taller- the E4 has 3+3 seating on the upper deck.

 

[Traindesign]

wouldnt tunnels be too low for them, but i think they would be great, more seats in a train of the same size, less standing and overcrowding etc

No this train runs within C1 gauge so no problems.
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Has been tried and wasn't a success
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

Bullied tried it and did his best at the time, this is very different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The train runs within C1, the dwell times have been very well thaught about and are not an issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Capacity would be nothing like "double", given the space needed for stairs etc.

Would it be worth doing for a 50% capacity increase and longer "dwell" times?

The capacity is an extra 80% over what we have now, the design was for London suburban services and dwell times have been very well taken care of!

 

[moonrakerz]

it seems strange that DB are moving away from double deckers, all the new trains I've seen, including some replacing old double deckers, are single deck. This may however have some connection to the new trains being multiple units whereas the old double deckers are loco hauled.

I travelled on a "double decker" for the first time earlier this year, in Germany.

It was different - nice view from up there, but I did wonder actually how many extra people you could get into it compared to a conventional single decker. Speeding up access to/from the upper deck seemed to require lots of stairs. These seemed to take up much of the extra space that was theoretically produced by the additional floor. At busy times I would imagine that it could be quite difficult to get up/down the stairs when you needed to.

 

[Traindesign]

European and USA DD trains do waste a lot of space due to the fact they have a lot of space!! This design runs within C1 static gauge and uses space very wisely, extra capacity is about 80%, i would like to post CAD's but this is commercialy sensative right now.

 

[yamhamdan]

i dont think it would work, unless it was a midget's train

 

[Traindesign]

i dont think it would work, unless it was a midget's train [/QUOTE

Well it works as the DFT will tell you, there will be a mock-up in the near future

to back this up, 6,6 headroom on both decks, i have to say im a bit supprised by your negative attitude, you didnt work for the SRA by any chance did you ????

 

[Bastiaan]

The only opinion I have is: pics or it didn't happen! Because it doesn't make sense asking people for their opinions about something they don't know anything about (anything more than the fact that it has been tried before and that it's quite impossible to fit a double-deck carriage into UK's railway profile...)
So is there any chance that we could see your designs?

 

[Traindesign]

The only opinion I have is: pics or it didn't happen! Because it doesn't make sense asking people for their opinions about something they don't know anything about (anything more than the fact that it has been tried before and that it's quite impossible to fit a double-deck carriage into UK's railway profile...)

Construtive opinion is very welcome, its to late for "it doesnt work" If you had designed this train would you post pics of it on the net at this stage? i think not !!

 

[tbtc]

The capacity is an extra 80% over what we have now

Surprising. A double decker bus has only about 50% more seats than a single decker, and train carriages would need staircases at each end etc...

(and, yes, I've used double decker trains before)

 

[OuterDistant]

Has been tried and wasn't a success
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

By far the most interesting thing I've learnt this week!

 

[Bastiaan]

Construtive opinion is very welcome, its to late for "it doesnt work" If you had designed this train would you post pics of it on the net at this stage? i think not !!

Like I said: I don't know what your solution is and how the design looks like. You can ask people for their opinions if you can show them something. If you can't show something in this stage (what ofcourse I can understand very well!), then don't be surprised if you don't get constructive comments

 

[Traindesign]

Surprising. A double decker bus has only about 50% more seats than a single decker, and train carriages would need staircases at each end etc...

(and, yes, I've used double decker trains before)

Im not at all bitter and would like to appolagise to members who think that i am. I also understand that it is difficult for people to judge when there is nothing to see !! What i can say is that this train does work, the vehicles are 90ft and bend in the centre. Dr Mike Mitchell of the DFT and Lloyds of London have checked them for height, profile, verticle curve, centre and end throw. Its a cunning use of space. Hope this helps.

 

[Greenback]

I am a rolling stock design engineer, i would be interested to hear the opinion of the people here regarding double deck trains here in the UK. I have an interesting suite of designs which will be launced early next year, these are both for passenger and frieght.

My opinion on double deck trains in the UK is that they would need to be pretty innovative in order to provide significant extra capacity within our restrictive loading gauge, deal with the longer dwell times involved, and still ensure a level of comfortable seating equivalent to that which suburban customers currently enjoy.

Your designs may well do this, I am looking forward to seeing them one day. However, it might be better to canvass opinion when the designs are in the public domain. And I don't think people are wrong to be a little bit sceptical as double deck trains in the UK have not been a success previously. You did ask for people's opinions! Thinking about it, to achieve 80% additional capacity must surely involve a lot of standing and far fewer seats?

I've travelled on double deck trains in Italy, France and the Netherlands, and they work very well in those countries where there is the space to allow wide doors, staircases and comfortable 2+2 seating. They are effective even on commuter services around Rome, and that is the type of train that is really badly needed in this country. Yet I can't escape the feeling that the design will be akin to a game of sardines for the passengers!

 

[GB]

I am a rolling stock design engineer, i would be interested to hear the opinion of the people here regarding double deck trains here in the UK. I have an interesting suite of designs which will be launced early next year, these are both for passenger and frieght.

As someone who works in the railfreight market I'd be interested to see what you have come up with to increase capacity.

 

[Traindesign]

The design is very innivative as it needed to be, it will operate without any changes to platforms, bridges, tunnels or track circuits. I also will be making public a passenger/freight/parcel vehicle early next year which may be or interest to yourself and the freight industry.

 

[Bastiaan]

Sounds all very interesting! So we will see these designs early next year? I'm really looking forward to it. It would be revolutionary, I think!

 

[tbtc]

The design is very innivative as it needed to be, it will operate without any changes to platforms, bridges, tunnels or track circuits. I also will be making public a passenger/freight/parcel vehicle early next year which may be or interest to yourself and the freight industry.

How are you planning to deal with electrification btw?

 

[Traindesign]

The units/power cars can be 3rd rail, OHL or diesel, there is provision in the vehicle roof section to very quickly install a pan, for instance if the London - Penzance was ellectrified a conversion could be swiftly done.
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Yes, the designs will be for release around March time, firstly to my target customer then on here.

 

[LexyBoy]

With the price of oil as it is, have you considered under-floor steam engines as a power source? Employing a team of dwarves to stoke the fires would also give the TOCs a good reputation as equal opportunities employers.

 

[Pumbaa]

You wouldn't happen to be Bob Clarke of ART would you

In all seriousness, seeing as the track renewal programme is staple today, and on the condition you are actually the Bob Clarke, I have great faith in these plans, although I am still sceptical as to why you are asking a public forum for opinions!

Nonetheless look forward to plans/CADs/mock-ups, and no I didn't work for the SRA!