Driver called customer on platform 'complete idiot' at Denmark Hill (27 Oct)

[thruud]

This morning, I was at Denmark Hill station when the 0804 eventually arrived at 0813. The train sat in the station for a few minutes, and was (as always) extremely overcrowded - there are usually three trains between 0800 and 0813, and this was the first one to arrive, so you had three trains worth of passengers on the platform.

The train did not move, and then the driver made an announcement over the tannoy asking passengers on the platform to step back behind the yellow line as he could not move the train until we did this. The train remained in the station, and then shortly afterwards the driver in significant frustration made an announcement on the tannoy going 'will someone get the complete idiot with the headphones on, third carriage back, to move back'.

I could see this chap, and he was at best 50cm over a yellow line. He moved back, the train remained static and eventually departed.

The issues that concerned me here were as follows:

a. The lack of co-ordination between DMK staff and the train - other than the very helpful older gentleman on the tannoy with train updates, their staff were completely invisible. You'd have thought they would have been on the platform moving people back.

b. The lack of professionalism and customer service by the train driver - I don't care how bad a day you're having, calling a random customer on the platform a complete idiot over the tannoy, when he's standing there is not acceptable. Either say it politely, or don't say it at all. Is this an acceptable level of conduct for a train driver?

c. The 'passengers over the yellow line issue' - how big a deal is this really? DMK is a very busy station, and there is little room to move as it is. I've used this station for years and never heard this as a reason to delay leaving the platform before (although I am open to education on this!).

Finally, and mildly OT, am I the only user of DMK who is incredibly frustrated with the station design, which is totally awful? The new footbridge feels like a missed opportunity to add an entrance/exit, and instead you've got ever more people using the station and being compressed into a tiny amount of space. I worry that if there is a fire or incident there, then its a potential death trap as there is no alternative exit.

 

[irish_rail]

Unfortunately if said "idiot" was to fall under the train as it departed, the driver could find himself up in court, and potentially (think James Street), doing porridge.

Rules are rules, and are there for a reason. In my opinion, it sounds like the driver did everything right.

 

[Tetchytyke]

c. The 'passengers over the yellow line issue' - how big a deal is this really?

If the driver cannot see that everyone is clear of the train then he cannot leave, as it is not safe. If the platform is relatively quiet then being stood in front of the yellow line probably doesn't matter. If the platform is rammed then it does matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rules are rules, and are there for a reason. In my opinion, it sounds like the driver did everything right.

Other than calling the passenger an "idiot". Seems to be something you get around those parts, though - I have witnessed a full on shouting match between a driver and a member of platform staff at London Bridge regarding who was responsible for a disabled passenger. No need for this whatsoever. We're much more civilised norf ov da rivva

(Even if he was being an idiot, which he arguably was, a degree of professionalism is called for in communications)

The same could have been achieved by saying "Could someone assist in moving back the person with the headphones near the third coach back in order that the train can safely depart, and the next train can come in?"

 

[Carntyne]

Driver was in the right. Not the best choice of words but think about the hundreds of people sitting there waiting to leave. All being stopped by this one passenger.

 

[TheEdge]

c. The 'passengers over the yellow line issue' - how big a deal is this really? DMK is a very busy station, and there is little room to move as it is. I've used this station for years and never heard this as a reason to delay leaving the platform before (although I am open to education on this!).

5 Year Jail Sentence. There, that is how big of a deal the yellow line is to us traincrew. Pure and simple. If a train moves and someone falls under it the crew was ware of in front of the line then we can look at a jail term. Would you be ignoring things in your job if it could end in a jail term with a manslaughter conviction??

In this situation, yes, there is nothing wrong. If the driver was making proper announcements and the prize fool wasn't moving then a more direct measure was needed.

 

[DarloRich]

Sentiment correct, wording perhaps wrong. Although I can understand frustrations boiling over.

 

[thruud]

I am an interested amateur in what goes on with the railways, and like many sheeple, I don't know the ins and outs of why an incredibly complex system does or doesn't work.

From what I could see, I could see someone 50cm over on a yellow line that is well over a meter, probably closer to 2m wide on a busy platform, on a station that I use daily but have never heard of this problem ocurring before, because the station staff don't explain why it matters, or what the implications are. I heard behaviour that seemed on first look to be unprofessional towards a customer.

I'm sorry for intruding upon your world and asking newbie questions about things I don't understand.

 

[Antman]

This morning, I was at Denmark Hill station when the 0804 eventually arrived at 0813. The train sat in the station for a few minutes, and was (as always) extremely overcrowded - there are usually three trains between 0800 and 0813, and this was the first one to arrive, so you had three trains worth of passengers on the platform.

The train did not move, and then the driver made an announcement over the tannoy asking passengers on the platform to step back behind the yellow line as he could not move the train until we did this. The train remained in the station, and then shortly afterwards the driver in significant frustration made an announcement on the tannoy going 'will someone get the complete idiot with the headphones on, third carriage back, to move back'.

I could see this chap, and he was at best 50cm over a yellow line. He moved back, the train remained static and eventually departed.

The issues that concerned me here were as follows:

a. The lack of co-ordination between DMK staff and the train - other than the very helpful older gentleman on the tannoy with train updates, their staff were completely invisible. You'd have thought they would have been on the platform moving people back.

b. The lack of professionalism and customer service by the train driver - I don't care how bad a day you're having, calling a random customer on the platform a complete idiot over the tannoy, when he's standing there is not acceptable. Either say it politely, or don't say it at all. Is this an acceptable level of conduct for a train driver?

c. The 'passengers over the yellow line issue' - how big a deal is this really? DMK is a very busy station, and there is little room to move as it is. I've used this station for years and never heard this as a reason to delay leaving the platform before (although I am open to education on this!).

Finally, and mildly OT, am I the only user of DMK who is incredibly frustrated with the station design, which is totally awful? The new footbridge feels like a missed opportunity to add an entrance/exit, and instead you've got ever more people using the station and being compressed into a tiny amount of space. I worry that if there is a fire or incident there, then its a potential death trap as there is no alternative exit.

No excuse whatsoever for calling a customer an idiot and in many jobs that would be gross misconduct and instant dismissal. The only time I've witnessed that was years ago at Bromley South when someone opened the door of a slammer that was pulling out and jumped on and one of the platform staff called him a "bloody idiot", he did apologise to others who were in earshot for his inappropriate language but in the circumstances I think he could be forgiven.

Obvious similarities with the James Street incident in which I thought the guard was very harshly treated but I'm sure that has been discussed ad nauseam.

And yes I very much agree with you about the poor design of DMK.

 

[leaffall]

No need to flounce Thruud, to be fair your original post was worded in such a way that it was clear you felt the driver completely in the wrong, not just about the language he used but because you obviously think he made to much of the guy in the headphones.

But believe me if you are trying to despatch a train DOO on a packed platform, whether it's by looking back or using the station monitors it is an absolute nightmare, what we need to sure about is that the person hasn't caught an item of clothing in the doors, only the other month a woman was dragged the platform on LU because her scarf was caught in the door, driver got interlock and off he went nearly strangling the woman in the process. The yellow line gives us a clear line of sight down the train so we can be sure it's safe.

As for the driver calling him an idiot, no of course that's not on, all we hear about is "delays" and it is extremely frustrating when passengers don't help themselves day after day after day...

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't think the chap with the headphones will complain, as he had his headphones on and would not have heard it!

 

[SPADTrap]

I recently had a 4 vice 8 car train on a busy stopping service which by the 3rd of 7 stations was so full and standing I was leaving people behind. Upon arrival and door release at the 4th station each set of doors were opened and those on the platform attempted to board the service, most only getting as far as one foot in the door as they couldn't go any further. You could sit there all day getting frustrated at people 'queuing' at the doors for something that isn't possible but you have to step back and think, people just want to get from A-B, effective but humble use of the PA is the DOO driver's friend here. There is little point in getting worked up about what is happening because as you depart frustrated and flustered thinking of that 'complete idiot' the next thing you know is you're putting 3 coaches through your next stop! Follow the rules to the letter and get it done safely, if that takes you 10 minutes over time then so be it, put passenger loadings down on the 'please explain' and carry on, not worth letting something as trivial as that ruin the calm in your cab and leading you into a mistake!

It is easy to say now eh!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Might it not have just been, not that the driver thought the person was dangerously close to the train, but that he was blocking the driver's view of the full length of the train?

 

[leaffall]

Might it not have just been, not that the driver thought the person was dangerously close to the train, but that he was blocking the driver's view of the full length of the train?

I'm pretty certain that's the case, yes. People get close all the time, As long as you can see they haven't got anything caught in the doors, it's *fairly* ok

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From the description of the "incident" (and to me it barely deserves that title) it seems that the person with the headphones might not be "all there" as common parlance might have it. Technically calling this person an "idiot" is not really on, but given the circumstances I can understand the driver becoming frustrated. If a complaint is made about this event I'd hope that such things will be taken into consideration...

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it wouldn't. Don't be ridiculous.

I'm certain it would in quite a number of jobs, particularly low-paid retail and restaurant jobs where the staff are very easily replaced.

 

[thruud]

"From the description of the "incident" (and to me it barely deserves that title) it seems that the person with the headphones might not be "all there" as common parlance might have it. Technically calling this person an "idiot" is not really on, but given the circumstances I can understand the driver becoming frustrated. If a complaint is made about this event I'd hope that such things will be taken into consideration..."

He was a normal commuter, standing on a platform, well back from the edge minding his own business. I watched a couple of people tap him and gesture and he moved on, albeit looking quite perplexed, as were a lot of other people too.

What this comes down to is the fact that the railways are often very bad at communicating why things matter to people in a way that they get. The average rail user (myself included) doesnt understand the subtlties and intricacies that make it work and most aren't remotely interested in finding out more - they want to get to/from work and thats it.

If the railway wants to reduce delays, it needs to be much better at putting its message across - in this instance, having a member of station staff on the platform walking along and saying 'stand back please because the train can't go' would have been a very simple way of solving it. Instead the staff were up at the grossly overcrowded entrance watching people enter / leave, and not on the platform helping clear delays.

Instead you've got a driver relying on a tannoy to alert passengers on the platform to alert another passenger that he can't move until he moves, which seems a fairly inefficient way to do business. There is no indication anywhere that standing beyond the yellow line on the platform holds trains up when in the station.

For the record, I did complain to Thameslink about the drivers actions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm certain it would in quite a number of jobs, particularly low-paid retail and restaurant jobs where the staff are very easily replaced.

For a one-off incident? I highly doubt it, and I've done more than my fair share of low-paid retail and call centre work.

For the record, I did complain to Thameslink about the drivers actions.

Why?

 

[thruud]

For a one-off incident? I highly doubt it, and I've done more than my fair share of low-paid retail and call centre work.



Why?

Because ultimately the driver lost his temper with a member of the public - I don't like the idea that someone who I'm temporarily entrusting my travelling safety to isn't able to put a simple message across without being 100% professional, because it raises questions in my mind about their suitability and temperarment to do that role.

Beyond that, in a customer facing environment, there are ways and means of doing something without insulting someone for no good reason - calling someone a complete idiot because they were standing on the platform minding their own business is not acceptable in my eyes, and I agree would get many people fired in other industries.

 

[meridian2]

A degree of professionalism is still required though, and whilst I believe the chap was wrong for standing over the yellow line, there are better alternatives to a public reprimand.

 

[Carntyne]

He was a normal commuter, standing on a platform, well back from the edge minding his own business. I watched a couple of people tap him and gesture and he moved on, albeit looking quite perplexed, as were a lot of other people too.

If he was in front of the yellow line, then he was by no means 'well back from the edge'.

 

[cjohnson]

Are there not train dispatchers at Denmark Hill? (There was that story a couple of years ago where the someone let his mate stand in for him as a dispatcher whilst he went off studying...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why?

Because it is unacceptable for any member of customer-facing staff in any business to refer to their customers in that manner, even if they are doing something perhaps a little silly.

The only situation I would vaguely tolerate it in (and consider it natural for that reaction to occur) would be where that customer had done something to deliberately escalate the situation, e.g. abuse, rather than just being a little passive or inattentive as it seems was the case.

I am also, as are others, concerned about the risk posed by a driver with adrenaline running high enough to do that. This always produces dangerous behaviour in road users, and I can't see that a train driver would be any different.

 

[thruud]

Are there not train dispatchers at Denmark Hill? (There was that story a couple of years ago where the someone let his mate stand in for him as a dispatcher whilst he went off studying...)

No - none at all on the platform I was on. There are usually 2-3 staff on the station but they are up at the entrance making tannoy announcements and helping at the gates.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am also, as are others, concerned about the risk posed by a driver with adrenaline running high enough to do that

There's nothing in the OP's description of the "incident" to indicate that the driver was furiously angry or dangerously over-wrought. As I said, if he was effing and blinding, or screaming at the top of his voice, then that would be very different.

If you think this is dangerously unprofessional, you'd have a coronary at how some of the Metro drivers up here speak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing in the OP's description of the "incident" to indicate that the driver was furiously angry or dangerously over-wrought. As I said, if he was effing and blinding, or screaming at the top of his voice, then that would be very different.

Fair point. Though the argument I referred to upthread was indeed in that manner, and it did indeed raise concerns. I watched it unfold with the intention that, had a punch been thrown (and it certainly appeared it was going to be at one stage) I would have acted as a witness to the BTP.

If you think this is dangerously unprofessional, you'd have a coronary at how some of the Metro drivers up here speak.

I'll separate unprofessional from dangerous again given the above. Different culture, maybe?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Fair point. Though the argument I referred to upthread was indeed in that manner, and it did indeed raise concerns. I watched it unfold with the intention that, had a punch been thrown (and it certainly appeared it was going to be at one stage) I would have acted as a witness to the BTP.

I'd agree with that much. If the driver was screaming at the top of his voice, or was marching down the train to physically move the passenger with the headphones, then I'd be well on the side of the OP.

But taking the time to complain to Thameslink about a driver calling an idiot an idiot? Please.

Maybe it is cultural, Geordie men don't hold back, but there are plenty of tube drivers are just as straight talking.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

'will someone get the complete idiot with the headphones on, third carriage back, to move back'.

I could see this chap, and he was at best 50cm over a yellow line. He moved back, the train remained static and eventually departed.

Well done to the driver.

The railway is a safety critical environment, there's no time for people to stop and compose a polite message, the quicker and more forcefully something comes out of someone's mouth, the more chance the other person has of avoiding an injury or death.

Distance is also an irrelevance, a few millimetres in the wrong direction is enough to get caught in a door and dragged under a train, a mm in the wrong direction risks blowing you into the next world when working with AC and DC electrification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway is a safety critical environment, there's no time for people to stop and compose a polite message, the quicker and more forcefully something comes out of someone's mouth, the more chance the other person has of avoiding an injury or death.

If the train had started moving I would agree, but it hadn't. The only effect of him remaining there would have been delay, which isn't going to kill anyone. So plenty of time to compose a polite message.

 

[cambsy]

I don't think the train driver said anything wrong or did anything wrong, and absolutely nothing should be done about it, do not know why it even warrants a thread about it. If he said that to me over the tannoy I would step back, look sheepish etc and forget about it and get on with life. too many people complain nowadays about nothing, get it all the time in my job and it does my head in sometimes