Driver/Guard Bells/Buzzers/Beepers used on trains in other countries.

[stadler]

Following on from thread in the rolling stock section about Driver/Guard bells on UK trains it had me wondering about the usage of bells to communicate between the Driver/Guard in other countries? Do any other countries besides us use bells/buzzers/beepers to communicate between the Driver and Guard like we do here?

I think some of the multiple units in New Zealand and Australia and possibly the USA and Canada do? If so does anyone know if they have the same bell codes as us?

Also are there any Mainland European countries that use bells? I think with most trains the Driver opens and closes and no bell codes are used or the Guard closes and the Driver departs as soon as interlock is received but i am wondering if there are any trains in Mainland Europe where a bell is used?

I presumed the 373s and 374s would? But i am looking at photos of the cabs of 373s and 374s and i can not see any bell buttons in the cabs. Also in the saloons they seem to have Berne key switches for operating the doors but no bell buttons so i am not sure that they do. It might just be closing the doors and then the driver departs as soon as they get the interlock light perhaps?

If anyone knows of other countries that use bells or beepers or buzzers i would be interested to hear. I am wondering if it is just a British practice or how many other countries railways use these.

 

[martin2345uk]

I presumed the 373s and 374s would? But i am looking at photos of the cabs of 373s and 374s and i can not see any bell buttons in the cabs. Also in the saloons they seem to have Berne key switches for operating the doors but no bell buttons so i am not sure that they do. It might just be closing the doors and then the driver departs as soon as they get the interlock light perhaps?

In France the 373s and 374s are indeed dispatched by the Train Manager giving the driver a buzz buzz, but the driver does not repeat it back because, as you say, there is no buzzer button in the cab.

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany has a DingDong telling the guard or costumer service personell to contact the driver. That is often done via a telefone (long distance trains) or over the emergency PA (regional services).

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Also are there any Mainland European countries that use bells? I think with most trains the Driver opens and closes and no bell codes are used or the Guard closes and the Driver departs as soon as interlock is received but i am wondering if there are any trains in Mainland Europe where a bell is used?

ICE's in Germany have an internal telephone wireless telephone system, so the guard can give the dispatch authorisation manually. I believe there is also a system for sending dispatch authorisation via a smart phone.
The vast majority of regional trains have driver release/automatic door close on doorway clear/depart on interlock. DOO is not the huge political and industrial controversy it is in the UK(although except for suburban services there is normally a ticket inspector present).
The few remaining classic IC/EC trains and older regional trains use dispatch by hand signal, or at major stations there is a key triggered light signal system similar the RA light signals in the UK.

I presumed the 373s and 374s would? But i am looking at photos of the cabs of 373s and 374s and i can not see any bell buttons in the cabs. Also in the saloons they seem to have Berne key switches for operating the doors but no bell buttons so i am not sure that they do. It might just be closing the doors and then the driver departs as soon as they get the interlock light perhaps?

Probably a door lock out so that when the driver closes the doors, selected doors where staff are positioned can remain open and be manually closed after a final check.

If anyone knows of other countries that use bells or beepers or buzzers i would be interested to hear. I am wondering if it is just a British practice or how many other countries railways use these.

Historically European railway services were run mainly with locomotive hauled coaches which used UIC standardised electrical connections, which were designed around door control from the locomotive.
So I think the situation in the UK where the driver is unable to open and close the doors of their own train and has to wait for the guard to do it for them is fairly unique. The standard method is for the guard to lock out their local door, use a baton to dispatch from the platform(observed by the driver via mirror or window) and then reboard after observing the door closure. In the UK meanwhile the existence or otherwise of cab door buttons buttons is a bitterly fought over issue, and even the idea that a driver could get out of their seat and stick their head of the window to look at the situation on the platform seems to be anathema.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Historically European railway services were run mainly with locomotive hauled coaches which used UIC standardised electrical connections, which were designed around door control from the locomotive.

Very much not.

Classic UIC door operation is that the inside handles on the doors lock and unlock automatically on going above/below 5km/h (the outside handles are not locked), and closure is done by the guard using a Vierkant key (mirror of a UK style one) and dispatch by waving a baton. Nothing controlled from the loco at all. Some older stock had only one of those features, i.e. locking but not autoclose, or autoclose but not locking.

Various railways have added modifications for doors to be controlled from the loco, though.

I understand that Dutch EMUs have/had a quirky variant of this in that turning the Vierkant key one way closes all doors except local and sends one bell to the cab, then turning it back again closes the local door and sends another bell which indicates dispatch.

 

[eldomtom2]

Most Japanese trains have the guard signal the driver to depart via a bell or buzzer, though some lines allow the driver to depart as soon as the door interlock light illuminates.

 

[stadler]

In France the 373s and 374s are indeed dispatched by the Train Manager giving the driver a buzz buzz, but the driver does not repeat it back because, as you say, there is no buzzer button in the cab.

Ah that is good to know that the 373s and 374s do have bells. So it sounds like they work the same as our 455s where the Driver can not return bell codes. I presume the bell on the 373s and 374s must be those yellow buttons you see by the doors when you board. I think i was expecting a green button like our domestic trains always have for a bell.

Germany has a DingDong telling the guard or costumer service personell to contact the driver. That is often done via a telefone (long distance trains) or over the emergency PA (regional services).

I think some classes of trains in the UK may have that too. I think that perhaps the 220/221/222/390 if i am remembering correctly has an option to play a sound over the PA to notify the Guard to contact the Driver on these.

ICE's in Germany have an internal telephone wireless telephone system, so the guard can give the dispatch authorisation manually. I believe there is also a system for sending dispatch authorisation via a smart phone.
The vast majority of regional trains have driver release/automatic door close on doorway clear/depart on interlock. DOO is not the huge political and industrial controversy it is in the UK(although except for suburban services there is normally a ticket inspector present).
The few remaining classic IC/EC trains and older regional trains use dispatch by hand signal, or at major stations there is a key triggered light signal system similar the RA light signals in the UK.



Probably a door lock out so that when the driver closes the doors, selected doors where staff are positioned can remain open and be manually closed after a final check.


Historically European railway services were run mainly with locomotive hauled coaches which used UIC standardised electrical connections, which were designed around door control from the locomotive.
So I think the situation in the UK where the driver is unable to open and close the doors of their own train and has to wait for the guard to do it for them is fairly unique. The standard method is for the guard to lock out their local door, use a baton to dispatch from the platform(observed by the driver via mirror or window) and then reboard after observing the door closure. In the UK meanwhile the existence or otherwise of cab door buttons buttons is a bitterly fought over issue, and even the idea that a driver could get out of their seat and stick their head of the window to look at the situation on the platform seems to be anathema.

The method used on some ICE trains in Germany is very odd. Last time that i was in Germany i saw some ICE trains with three Guards onboard and all three Guards were involved in despatch. It seemed that first all three Guards put their key in the switch to stop their local door closing and then all the doors closed (i am not sure who closes their doors) except the three local doors which stay open. Then once all of the doors are closed (except the three local doors) the three Guards then all wave a flag or baton or torch (depending on the time of day) towards the Driver and all three step onboard and close their three local doors at the same time. So you have three different Guards in three different carriages spread throughout the train and they all carry out the same despatch method. It seems like a very confusing way to do things.

Very much not.

Classic UIC door operation is that the inside handles on the doors lock and unlock automatically on going above/below 5km/h (the outside handles are not locked), and closure is done by the guard using a Vierkant key (mirror of a UK style one) and dispatch by waving a baton. Nothing controlled from the loco at all. Some older stock had only one of those features, i.e. locking but not autoclose, or autoclose but not locking.

Various railways have added modifications for doors to be controlled from the loco, though.

I understand that Dutch EMUs have/had a quirky variant of this in that turning the Vierkant key one way closes all doors except local and sends one bell to the cab, then turning it back again closes the local door and sends another bell which indicates dispatch.

I never realised the Dutch method sent a bell to the cab. I presumed that it was just an interlock light which displays in the cab or something like that.

I think that Belgium and Luxembourg may possibly use a similar method to the Netherlands on some of their units. But i am not sure on the exact method.

On some trains in Belgium they use a really unsafe method where the Guard leaves the door open when departing. I remember seeing Guards on the modern Siemens Desiro ML trains leaving their local door open as the train departs. It was not until around five seconds after the train starts moving that they close it. This seems so dangerous as this is a wide passenger door and anyone could try to board or alight.

On some of the units in Luxembourg they first turn their key switch to close the other doors and get back on the train. Then after they close the other doors i have seen Guards turn their key to the left three times in a row when closing their local door and i always wonder if this sends some kind of signal. Perhaps turning the key to the left three times in a row is like their equivalent of a bell and sends a signal to the driver.

 

[Bemined]

I understand that Dutch EMUs have/had a quirky variant of this in that turning the Vierkant key one way closes all doors except local and sends one bell to the cab, then turning it back again closes the local door and sends another bell which indicates dispatch.

I believe the bell is mainly to alert the driver that the door close procedure has been started so he doesn't have to watch the light all the time during longer stops. The actual confirmation that the doors are closed is a green light.

 

[rg177]

On some trains in Belgium they use a really unsafe method where the Guard leaves the door open when departing. I remember seeing Guards on the modern Siemens Desiro ML trains leaving their local door open as the train departs. It was not until around five seconds after the train starts moving that they close it. This seems so dangerous as this is a wide passenger door and anyone could try to board or alight.

They haven't done this for quite a while. I have indeed witnessed someone try to launch themselves through one of these open doors!

Instead, they now seem to have an odd way of just dispatching on time (even if the signal is at danger) and letting the train sit there locked up. My record is 15 minutes!

 

[DanielB]

For who'd like to witness a really odd way of dispatching I'd recommend making a trip from Maastricht to Liège now the "Drielandentrein" (three country train) from Aachen to Liège is operational.
The section from Maastricht to Belgium is now operated by Arriva FLIRT trains, but under NSs franchise with SNCB staff. Trains are equipped for DOO, but this is not allowed in Belgium. So the guard will blow his whistle, walk to the cab shooting "close the doors" to the driver, use his key to open one door to check everything is safe and then close it again and giving the driver the all clear.

Last time I took this train the final closing wouldn't work, so I witnessed the guard entering the front first class with his hands in the air as a sign of giving up on trying and asking the driver to close the doors again.

 

[rvdborgt]

On some trains in Belgium they use a really unsafe method where the Guard leaves the door open when departing. I remember seeing Guards on the modern Siemens Desiro ML trains leaving their local door open as the train departs. It was not until around five seconds after the train starts moving that they close it. This seems so dangerous as this is a wide passenger door and anyone could try to board or alight.

This was abolished a number of years ago. Sadly, several accidents needed to happen first. It was unsafe indeed. The same practice had been abolished in the Netherlands ~15 years earlier.
In Belgium though they still close the doors at (or rather before) departure time regardless of the signal, which AFAIK is unique in Europe.

 

[Bemined]

In the Netherlands they did add countdown signals in recent years to several stations, allowing the driver to start the departure procedure while the signal was still at danger but it was guaranteed to clear within 15 seconds. This mainly applies to stations with level crossings behind them where there is a built-in delay in the interlocking for the signal to clear when there is a train present to give the crossing enough time to close. When all other conditions are met, this countdown allows to the driver to start the departure procedure while the crossing is still in the process of closing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This was abolished a number of years ago. Sadly, several accidents needed to happen first. It was unsafe indeed. The same practice had been abolished in the Netherlands ~15 years earlier.
In Belgium though they still close the doors at (or rather before) departure time regardless of the signal, which AFAIK is unique in Europe.

The reason this is not done in the UK is to reduce the risk of dispatching against a red signal which is then SPADed (known as "ding ding and away" incidents informally, i.e. the driver gets the two bells or buzzes and just goes, assuming the signal to be green), so I wonder if Belgium will need its own such incident to come into line.

This was abolished a number of years ago. Sadly, several accidents needed to happen first. It was unsafe indeed. The same practice had been abolished in the Netherlands ~15 years earlier.
In Belgium though they still close the doors at (or rather before) departure time regardless of the signal, which AFAIK is unique in Europe.

The upside of this approach, which was once pretty standard, was that the guard would see the train out of the platform. With a requirement to close fully before departing this is no longer the case, and has just meant a change to different types of incident (though perhaps fewer of them?)

 

[MarcVD]

In Belgium, the procedure is as follows : when time to depart arrives, the train manager closes all doors, and then sends a message to the driver using his smartwatch. The driver receives it on his tablet, checks that all doors are closed, and then sets the train in motion, as soon as signals permit. The train manager does not know how to interpret lineside signals so departure is done on schedule. In a few year's time there won't be lineside signals to look at anyway : first experiments with ETCS Level 2 without lineside signals on non high speed lines will start in 2027.

 

[MisterT]

I understand that Dutch EMUs have/had a quirky variant of this in that turning the Vierkant key one way closes all doors except local and sends one bell to the cab, then turning it back again closes the local door and sends another bell which indicates dispatch

Yes and no. The bell only indicates that the doors closing process has started, but it doesn't signal the actual dispatch. It's only a courtesy to the driver and not necessary for safe dispatch, so when the bells fail for any reason, it isn't a safety issue.
On contrary, for example our Traxx locomotives used on the HSL-South didn't even have the (digital equivalent) of the bell until 2017, when it was finally installed with a software update.
The real dispatch signal is given by an indicator lighting up on the drivers desk, or in some trains an icon on the ETCS DMI as soon as the door interlocking reports all passenger doors as closed.

On modern trains, there is also a traction block as long as the doors aren't fully closed, but on older trains that was/isn't the case. We have had issues with our SGM trains (those are out of service now), where the indicator lit up in error, due to some electrical leakage in the wiring. As a result, we had to manually confirm the door status and dispatch with the guard at every station, which was a huge pain in the, err, behind.

Edit: and also to answer the original question from the OP: No, we don't communicate between the driver and the guard with bells/buzzers/etc, we have a walkie-talkie and mobile phone, and all trains have cab-to-cab or PA system-to-cab communication (not sure of the official name, but the guard can use any PA intercom to contact the driver, without doing an actual public announcement) as well, but those last two are only very rarely used in my experience. I wouldn't even be surprised if most guards didn't know that those options exist as well

Edit 2: clarified that is the door interlocking that gives the 'doors closed' signal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes and no. The bell only indicates that the doors closing process has started, but it doesn't signal the actual dispatch. It's only a courtesy to the driver and not necessary for safe dispatch, so when the bells fails for any reason, it isn't a safety issue.
On contrary, for example our Traxx locomotives used on the HSL-South didn't even have the (digital equivalent) of the bell until 2017, when it was finally installed with a software update.
The real dispatch signal is given by an indicator lighting up on the drivers desk, or in some trains an icon on the ETCS DMI.

Is that the interlock, or is it something specifically given by the guard? If the latter, how is it given?

 

[MisterT]

It's simply the door interlock, so as soon as the passenger doors are closed and locked, the indicator will light up.

There is one exception: when the guard closes the doors from the cab door (which is possible on some trains), the guard has to push a button inside that cab before the indicator lights up.
This is to prevent the train from leaving as soon as the passenger doors are closed while the guard is still on the platform.

 

[rvdborgt]

In Belgium, the procedure is as follows : when time to depart arrives, the train manager closes all doors, and then sends a message to the driver using his smartwatch. The driver receives it on his tablet, checks that all doors are closed, and then sets the train in motion, as soon as signals permit. The train manager does not know how to interpret lineside signals so departure is done on schedule. In a few year's time there won't be lineside signals to look at anyway : first experiments with ETCS Level 2 without lineside signals on non high speed lines will start in 2027.

I doubt however that the Belgian exception will then spread to the rest of Europe. I'm sure ways will be found not to need this.

 

[Re 4/4]

How will they dispatch in the UK when we've moved to ETCS then? Still have OFF indicators at the platforms?

In some parts of Switzerland, I believe the dispatch is done by text message. The guard does something on their mobile device and it shows on a screen in the cab.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How will they dispatch in the UK when we've moved to ETCS then? Still have OFF indicators at the platforms?

In some parts of Switzerland, I believe the dispatch is done by text message. The guard does something on their mobile device and it shows on a screen in the cab.

Switzerland needed to change what they were doing, as their system was downright dangerous - right away was given via a key box on the platform with doors still open.

 

[LowLevel]

How will they dispatch in the UK when we've moved to ETCS then? Still have OFF indicators at the platforms?

In some parts of Switzerland, I believe the dispatch is done by text message. The guard does something on their mobile device and it shows on a screen in the cab.

You can have off indicators with ETCS, the other way is the driver gives the guard a buzzer code to confirm they've got their movement authority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can have off indicators with ETCS, the other way is the driver gives the guard a buzzer code to confirm they've got their movement authority.

Now you mention it the latter is how it is done on the Cambrian, the extra buzzes are noticeable.

 

[paul_munich]

The method used on some ICE trains in Germany is very odd. Last time that i was in Germany i saw some ICE trains with three Guards onboard and all three Guards were involved in despatch. It seemed that first all three Guards put their key in the switch to stop their local door closing and then all the doors closed (i am not sure who closes their doors) except the three local doors which stay open. Then once all of the doors are closed (except the three local doors) the three Guards then all wave a flag or baton or torch (depending on the time of day) towards the Driver and all three step onboard and close their three local doors at the same time. So you have three different Guards in three different carriages spread throughout the train and they all carry out the same despatch method. It seems like a very confusing way to do things.

One of the three guards is the boss (Zugchef) of the other two, so when the doors the two guards are responsible for are closed correctly, they wave a red baton towards the Zugchef, who, after his door is also closed correctly, informs the driver via his phone, that the train is ready to depart.

 

[Re 4/4]

Switzerland needed to change what they were doing, as their system was downright dangerous - right away was given via a key box on the platform with doors still open.

I think with the EW I coaches, that was by design - instead of close doors, then away, the doors were set to close themselves when the train speed went above 5 km/h. It wouldn't be acceptable nowadays of course, but the past was a different country.

 

[railfan99]

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[stadler]

For who'd like to witness a really odd way of dispatching I'd recommend making a trip from Maastricht to Liège now the "Drielandentrein" (three country train) from Aachen to Liège is operational.
The section from Maastricht to Belgium is now operated by Arriva FLIRT trains, but under NSs franchise with SNCB staff. Trains are equipped for DOO, but this is not allowed in Belgium. So the guard will blow his whistle, walk to the cab shooting "close the doors" to the driver, use his key to open one door to check everything is safe and then close it again and giving the driver the all clear.

Last time I took this train the final closing wouldn't work, so I witnessed the guard entering the front first class with his hands in the air as a sign of giving up on trying and asking the driver to close the doors again.

That method used on the Stadler Flirt trains in Belgium sounds bonkers. It seems a bit time consuming. You would think they could come up with a better method than that. Surely even installing a basic key switch to keep the local door open when the Driver closes the other doors. If there is already a key switch to open just one door than you would think they could easily modify this key switch so that it keeps the door open when the Driver closes the other doors? Is the current method the permanent solution or this temporary until they modify the units?

It's simply the door interlock, so as soon as the passenger doors are closed and locked, the indicator will light up.

There is one exception: when the guard closes the doors from the cab door (which is possible on some trains), the guard has to push a button inside that cab before the indicator lights up.
This is to prevent the train from leaving as soon as the passenger doors are closed while the guard is still on the platform.

That is interesting to hear that they can use the cab on some Dutch trains. I have never seen a Guard in the Netherlands (or any European country) use the cab so i presumed despatching from the cab was a British thing. Out of interest on which trains can they close doors from the cab? Presumably they can also use the saloon on these trains too?

Also on trains in the Netherlands is the cab door not part of the interlock? So the train could move with the cab door open? I ask because in the UK the cab door is almost always part of the interlock and the interlock is not received and the train can not move until the cab door is closed. The 455s are our only trains left in service where you can achieve interlock with an open cab door.

Now you mention it the latter is how it is done on the Cambrian, the extra buzzes are noticeable.

They also do this in Scotland on the Fort William / Kyle Of Lochalsh / Mallaig / Oban / Thurso / Wick lines. So first the Driver gives 2-1 to confirm that they have authority to proceed and the Guard replies 2-1 back. Then the Guard can close the doors and despatch as normal giving 2 on the bell and the Driver repeats 2 back as usual.

One of the three guards is the boss (Zugchef) of the other two, so when the doors the two guards are responsible for are closed correctly, they wave a red baton towards the Zugchef, who, after his door is also closed correctly, informs the driver via his phone, that the train is ready to depart.

That is interesting to hear. It seems odd having three Guards on one train. Germany must be quite unique in doing that as i can not think of any other countries (besides Eurostar trains) where you have more than one Guard onboard. I suppose it helps with despatch especially as the trains can be twelve coaches long and many German stations do not seem to have despatchers on the platforms.

So are they actually different job roles? So some Guards are employed as a Zugchef and others are secondary Guards or something like that? Or are they all the same job but one will be designated as a Zugchef for each train? So a Guard might be a Zugchef for one train and then work as a secondary Guard on another?

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Now you mention it i think Australia and New Zealand seem to have a huge variety of methods used on different trains. A lot of them seem to use bells. Some interesting methods in Australia and New Zealand that i have noticed.

On both the Auckland suburban trains (CAF) (Driver Open Guard Close) and the Wellington suburban trains (Hyundai) (Guard Open Guard Close) in New Zealand i have noticed that the Guard presses the "Right Of Way" button two times at every stop. But there is no sound heard. So my assumption is that it rings two bells in the cab (once for each press) which only the Driver can hear? Presumably it is similar to us and it rings two bells in the cab but there is just no sound for the Guard in the saloon?

On the Sydney (New South Wales) trains in Australia the Guard both opens and closes the doors. When the doors are closed the Guard rings a bell once (the Driver does not repeat) to give the right away signal. They also hang out the cab door which is left wide open. This practice has long been banned in the UK and on most trains it is not even possible.

On the Brisbane (Queensland) trains in Australia the Driver opens and closes the doors but there is a Guard and they use a method kind of similar to our ten bell method. When the train is ready to depart the Guard rings the bell twice (the Driver does not repeat) and then the Driver presses the door close button in the cab and departs as soon as he gets the interlock light. This practice seems a bit unsafe as there is no second set of bells after the doors are closed. Although the Guard hangs out the trains so presumably they can give an emergency stop signal if necessary.

I think the long distance trains in NSW and QLD and VIC use different method. So i am not sure if they have bells on these trains. I think within Victoria they use two way radios but i am not sure about the other states.

Does anyone know how the TransWA trains in Western Australia work? They have a bunch of different bell codes i have heard i have wondered what they mean? Most of the platforms are extremely short and can only fit one door (normally an intermediate carriage) and the trains pull slowly in to the platform and then right before the train stops you hear three bells. So i am wondering if perhaps the three bells is the Guard indicating to the Driver that the train has reached the correct stopping point.

On the Adelaide suburban trains it seems to be the Driver who opens and closes the doors but all trains have a PSA onboard. According to Wikipedia it says that the PSA can operate the doors if necessary. So presumably this is if the cameras are not working? So i wonder if these trains have a bell for the PSA to use when they do degraded despatch?

 

[MisterT]

That is interesting to hear that they can use the cab on some Dutch trains. I have never seen a Guard in the Netherlands (or any European country) use the cab so i presumed despatching from the cab was a British thing. Out of interest on which trains can they close doors from the cab? Presumably they can also use the saloon on these trains too?

Also on trains in the Netherlands is the cab door not part of the interlock? So the train could move with the cab door open? I ask because in the UK the cab door is almost always part of the interlock and the interlock is not received and the train can not move until the cab door is closed. The 455s are our only trains left in service where you can achieve interlock with an open cab door.

All new trains (SNG, FLIRT, ICNG) have the option to close the doors from the cab door and future trains (DDNG, S5G) will have it as well.
According to our rules/regulations, this location for closing the doors should only be used in case of extreme passenger load (basically when there isn't enough room for the train guard to close the doors the normal way from the saloon), which is why it's not commonly used.
On older trains, we use a procedure called 'buitenom sleutelen':
The guard will inform the driver that it's too busy and that they'll use this procedure. Then the guard will close the doors from the saloon, but will stay outside on the platform after closing their own door, which means that the driver will receive the door interlock. Because the driver was informed beforehand, they'll wait until the guard has informed them that the guard is back inside the cab.


The cab doors aren't part of the door interlock. I believe they tried that back in 1977 with the introduction of the ICM-0 prototypes, because the cab door was opened to the outside on those trains, so it would pose a safety risk of that door wasn't closed, but on the ICM-1, this door was changed to a door opening inward and the door interlock on cab doors was removed.
I don't know if it's standard or not for train manufacturers to have the cab doors part of the door interlock, but I know that it was present on the early prototypes of our ICNG trains. After comments about it, it was removed. Now we only get a notification if one of the cab doors is open while moving, but even that is a novelty to us and I'm pretty sure that those messages will be removed in a future software update.
So yes, NS trains can move with the cab door open.

I don't know about trains from other operators, though.

 

[bahnause]

Switzerland needed to change what they were doing, as their system was downright dangerous - right away was given via a key box on the platform with doors still open.

Why would that be dangerous? It is still a standard method of dispatching a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would that be dangerous? It is still a standard method of dispatching a train.

Because you have indicated to the driver that it is safe to move the train before it actually is safe - it's based on an assumption that the 10 second or so (I think it's that) delay to put up the signal to depart is going to be enough to ready the train properly. I've seen a number of potentially dangerous incidents in CH as a result, for instance trains starting moving with doors open or people boarding at the last second, getting stuck in/belted by the doors and there being no easy way to rescind the right away.

In most other European countries, the right away is not given until the doors have been closed and confirmed closed, even if it might be that the guard's door remains open.

I know CH has a surprising "don't be a fool" safety culture compared to the UK's much more nannying one, and that could be used to justify a less-safe procedure, but it doesn't stop the procedure having serious holes in it.

 

[bahnause]

Because you have indicated to the driver that it is safe to move the train before it actually is safe - it's based on an assumption that the 10 second or so (I think it's that) delay to put up the signal to depart is going to be enough to ready the train properly. I've seen a number of potentially dangerous incidents in CH as a result, for instance trains starting moving with doors open or people boarding at the last second, getting stuck in/belted by the doors and there being no easy way to rescind the right away.

In most other European countries, the right away is not given until the doors have been closed and confirmed closed, even if it might be that the guard's door remains open.

But the mode of dispatch has nothing to do with the doors. With very few exceptions, door status confirmation has been standard at SBB for over 10 years. In most cases you cannot even move a train with the doors being open. The guard cannot confirm if all doors are securely closed anyway, that's up to the driver.