Driver/Guard Bells/Buzzers/Beepers used on trains in other countries.

[Bletchleyite]

But the mode of dispatch has nothing to do with the doors. With very few exceptions, door status confirmation has been standard at SBB for over 10 years. In most cases you cannot even move a train with the doors being open. The guard cannot confirm if all doors are securely closed anyway, that's up to the driver.

After a number of incidents, the UK has established that the "Mk1 eyeball" is far superior than the interlock at checking doors are properly closed. (Though obviously both is best!)

I suspect other European countries will follow our lead when they too have their own tragic and unnecessary loss of life as a result of assuming that that blue* light means it's safe to go.

* It is mostly blue in the UK.

 

[nwales58]

Couple of general points:

1) Switzerland has fully-trained passengers. To my eye it makes a difference to how slickly station stops work.

2) 'Ways of thinking' deep down in cultures: in german-influenced places even when walking along a pavement with a cycle track people instinctively are thinking 'who has priority' 'who is legally liable for any collision' in a way pragmatic britain does not. Without intending to be insensitive, being incapable due to drink and drugs whilst using the railway would probably make your death your own fault (as well as the consequential effects) whereas our approach flowing from the 1974 H&S at Work Act (which really has achieved a massively better world than when I was young) means the guard was convicted of manslaughter.

 

[rvdborgt]

That is interesting to hear. It seems odd having three Guards on one train. Germany must be quite unique in doing that as i can not think of any other countries (besides Eurostar trains) where you have more than one Guard onboard. I suppose it helps with despatch especially as the trains can be twelve coaches long and many German stations do not seem to have despatchers on the platforms.

ICEs can be up to 16 coaches (400 m). You really don't want to dispatch such a train at a curved platform with just one guard.

So are they actually different job roles? So some Guards are employed as a Zugchef and others are secondary Guards or something like that? Or are they all the same job but one will be designated as a Zugchef for each train? So a Guard might be a Zugchef for one train and then work as a secondary Guard on another?

There's only one Zugchef on a train.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

In the US Amtrak trains generally use radio between conductor and engineer "Ok to Highball number x" where x is train number, or something to that effect.
On my last trip on VIA's Canadian in 1984 it was the same.

Local commuter type trains may use a buzzer or other signal. I believe SEPTA Regional Rail does.

 

[Halish Railway]

In the US Amtrak trains generally use radio between conductor and engineer "Ok to Highball number x" where x is train number, or something to that effect.
On my last trip on VIA's Canadian in 1984 it was the same.

Local commuter type trains may use a buzzer or other signal. I believe SEPTA Regional Rail does.

The New York Subway seemed to have the same dispatch procedure as in the UK with the guard giving two bells, although I can't remember if the driver gives two back.

Amtrak's procedure's are well... certainly interesting. During my first Amtrak experience on a Northeast Regional to Ashland VA (An area of railway with roads running immediately parallel on both sides with a curb as the only form of protection) the conductor opened a local door at 70 mph a few miles away from the station, had to radio the driver to stop in the right position whilst the train had to foul two level crossings and a foot crossing, with the doors opened locally by the two conductors who had to release the trap stairs to allow passengers off. Dispatch as mentioned is confirmed over radio with the conductors keeping their local doors open whilst observing the dispatch.

 

[stadler]

ICEs can be up to 16 coaches (400 m). You really don't want to dispatch such a train at a curved platform with just one guard.

There's only one Zugchef on a train.

That is a good point. I forgot they ran sixteen coach trains. I have just seen a video online now of four Guards despatching a long ICE train. So it seems that some trains can even have four Guards onboard.

In the US Amtrak trains generally use radio between conductor and engineer "Ok to Highball number x" where x is train number, or something to that effect.
On my last trip on VIA's Canadian in 1984 it was the same.

Local commuter type trains may use a buzzer or other signal. I believe SEPTA Regional Rail does.

Ah that is interesting to hear. I thought that Amtrack used radios but i was not sure quite how it worked. That seems like an odd choice of wording to use. I suppose that is probably a more North American term.

The New York Subway seemed to have the same dispatch procedure as in the UK with the guard giving two bells, although I can't remember if the driver gives two back.

Amtrak's procedure's are well... certainly interesting. During my first Amtrak experience on a Northeast Regional to Ashland VA (An area of railway with roads running immediately parallel on both sides with a curb as the only form of protection) the conductor opened a local door at 70 mph a few miles away from the station, had to radio the driver to stop in the right position whilst the train had to foul two level crossings and a foot crossing, with the doors opened locally by the two conductors who had to release the trap stairs to allow passengers off. Dispatch as mentioned is confirmed over radio with the conductors keeping their local doors open whilst observing the dispatch.

I have a feeling that on both NYC Subway trains and PATH trains (which is basically NYC Subway lines operated by another company) they both use the buzzer at the first station only. I think the Guard gives two buzzes and the Driver repeats two buzzes back too. In the cab photos you can see a buzzer by the Driver controls. When i have used them i am pretty sure i remember hearing it at the originating station but not at any other station. I am not sure why but it seems like it is used only at the first station on the line.

At other stations they seem to simply close their doors and remove the key. So the Driver presumably just departs as soon as they get the interlock light. From doing a bit of research online and looking at a few Wikipedia articles it says that when the Guard removes the key it gives the indication to the Driver that they are cleared to depart and this matches with videos online. So presumably when they remove the key it either gives the interlock light or some other light maybe.

In the beginning of this video taken at the first station on the line you can see the Guard press the buzzer button twice and then you can hear the Driver give two buzzes back:

So this confirms that at the first station they definitely use the buzzer and give two buzzes to each other.

On these videos all taken at intermediate stations you can see that the Guard simply closes the doors and removes their key and then the train departs with no buzzers used at all:

So it seems like at intermediate stations the Driver can just depart as soon as the Guard removes their key.

What is the point of just using the buzzer at the first stop? There must be a reason why they only do it at the first station on the line?

Surprisingly they do not have any doors and just simply lean out the window. In the UK that practice would not be allowed. I remember when i was a Guard we were told and reminded regularly to always fully step on to the platform as everything can be observed much better than just leaning out of your door. Even these days i am pretty sure all of our TOCs still require the Guard to fully step on to then platform.

Also interestingly on the NYC Subway only trains that have 6 carriages or more have a Guard onboard. All trains that have 5 carriages or less run DOO with the Driver only. So the shuttle services and some of the late night and weekend services on certain lines run in DOO operation.

On the Toronto Metro (on Line 1 and Line 2 only) they also have buzzers. According to a Wikipedia article they seem to be used at every stop unlike on the NYC Subway and PATH trains.

Caltrain have a buzzer button the panels of their new Stadler Kiss trains but it seems like it is not used at all:

https://youtu.be/Fu4R2plx6C0

In this video you can see the buzzer is not used. So the Guard simply closes the doors and presumably the Driver just departs as soon as they get the interlock light.

Metro North and Long Island Rail Road both seems to use Guard buzzers too (at least on the multiple units) and they use the same two buzzes as we do as can be heard in this video:

https://youtu.be/ns4QBT4Gg9c

It seems that the Guard gives two buzzes and the Driver gives two buzzes back. Also unlike the NYC Subway and PATH trains it seems that they use the buzzer at every stop.

It seems like on a lot of trains in the USA (at least on the NYC Subway and PATH and Metro North and Long Island Rail Road trains) the Driver can hear the Guards buzzer and the Guard can hear the Drivers buzzer but they can not hear their own buzzers. It seems that when the Guard presses the buzzer it only sounds in the Drivers cab and when the Driver presses the buzzer it only sounds in the Guard panel. It is weird that they can not hear their own buzzes. In the UK we always can. I wonder if there is a reason for this? Why do they play no sound for their own buzzes?

On a lot of other suburban trains they seem to have buzzer buttons but i am not sure that they are always used. I have found photos of the Guard panels and they all seem to have a buzzer button even if they are not used. Amtrack have buzzer buttons on the coaches of their North East corridor trains but they do not seem to use them. MBTA Boston Commuter Rail, New Jersey Transit Commuter Rail, MARC Maryland Commuter Rail, Caltrain, Metrolink, many other commuter rail services, all seem to have buzzer buttons but i have a feeling they might only be used on multiple units and when the control car is leading on push pull sets. I doubt the locomotives have any ability or cables to enable buzzers? That is probably why they are often not used?

So it certainly seems to vary a lot in the USA as to what is used. But some of them certainly use the same buzzer method that we use. I wonder who started the buzzes to depart method first. Did this originate in the UK and then spread to the USA later on.

 

[godfreycomplex]

That is a good point. I forgot they ran sixteen coach trains. I have just seen a video online now of four Guards despatching a long ICE train. So it seems that some trains can even have four Guards onboard.


Ah that is interesting to hear. I thought that Amtrack used radios but i was not sure quite how it worked. That seems like an odd choice of wording to use. I suppose that is probably a more North American term.


I have a feeling that on both NYC Subway trains and PATH trains (which is basically NYC Subway lines operated by another company) they both use the buzzer at the first station only. I think the Guard gives two buzzes and the Driver repeats two buzzes back too. In the cab photos you can see a buzzer by the Driver controls. When i have used them i am pretty sure i remember hearing it at the originating station but not at any other station. I am not sure why but it seems like it is used only at the first station on the line.

At other stations they seem to simply close their doors and remove the key. So the Driver presumably just departs as soon as they get the interlock light. From doing a bit of research online and looking at a few Wikipedia articles it says that when the Guard removes the key it gives the indication to the Driver that they are cleared to depart and this matches with videos online. So presumably when they remove the key it either gives the interlock light or some other light maybe.

In the beginning of this video taken at the first station on the line you can see the Guard press the buzzer button twice and then you can hear the Driver give two buzzes back:

So this confirms that at the first station they definitely use the buzzer and give two buzzes to each other.

On these videos all taken at intermediate stations you can see that the Guard simply closes the doors and removes their key and then the train departs with no buzzers used at all:

So it seems like at intermediate stations the Driver can just depart as soon as the Guard removes their key.

What is the point of just using the buzzer at the first stop? There must be a reason why they only do it at the first station on the line?

Surprisingly they do not have any doors and just simply lean out the window. In the UK that practice would not be allowed. I remember when i was a Guard we were told and reminded regularly to always fully step on to the platform as everything can be observed much better than just leaning out of your door. Even these days i am pretty sure all of our TOCs still require the Guard to fully step on to then platform.

Also interestingly on the NYC Subway only trains that have 6 carriages or more have a Guard onboard. All trains that have 5 carriages or less run DOO with the Driver only. So the shuttle services and some of the late night and weekend services on certain lines run in DOO operation.

On the Toronto Metro (on Line 1 and Line 2 only) they also have buzzers. According to a Wikipedia article they seem to be used at every stop unlike on the NYC Subway and PATH trains.

Caltrain have a buzzer button the panels of their new Stadler Kiss trains but it seems like it is not used at all:

https://youtu.be/Fu4R2plx6C0

In this video you can see the buzzer is not used. So the Guard simply closes the doors and presumably the Driver just departs as soon as they get the interlock light.

Metro North and Long Island Rail Road both seems to use Guard buzzers too (at least on the multiple units) and they use the same two buzzes as we do as can be heard in this video:

https://youtu.be/ns4QBT4Gg9c

It seems that the Guard gives two buzzes and the Driver gives two buzzes back. Also unlike the NYC Subway and PATH trains it seems that they use the buzzer at every stop.

It seems like on a lot of trains in the USA (at least on the NYC Subway and PATH and Metro North and Long Island Rail Road trains) the Driver can hear the Guards buzzer and the Guard can hear the Drivers buzzer but they can not hear their own buzzers. It seems that when the Guard presses the buzzer it only sounds in the Drivers cab and when the Driver presses the buzzer it only sounds in the Guard panel. It is weird that they can not hear their own buzzes. In the UK we always can. I wonder if there is a reason for this? Why do they play no sound for their own buzzes?

On a lot of other suburban trains they seem to have buzzer buttons but i am not sure that they are always used. I have found photos of the Guard panels and they all seem to have a buzzer button even if they are not used. Amtrack have buzzer buttons on the coaches of their North East corridor trains but they do not seem to use them. MBTA Boston Commuter Rail, New Jersey Transit Commuter Rail, MARC Maryland Commuter Rail, Caltrain, Metrolink, many other commuter rail services, all seem to have buzzer buttons but i have a feeling they might only be used on multiple units and when the control car is leading on push pull sets. I doubt the locomotives have any ability or cables to enable buzzers? That is probably why they are often not used?

So it certainly seems to vary a lot in the USA as to what is used. But some of them certainly use the same buzzer method that we use. I wonder who started the buzzes to depart method first. Did this originate in the UK and then spread to the USA later on.

The ICE trains are dispatched in a similar way to Grand Central are in the UK, all the on board staff step off the train, give the tip to the guard when safe, and step on again, the guard then communicates with the driver to give the right away, doors close, away we go. The reason I mention this is that Grand Central crews all have some training in dispatch, but not necessarily all the training the guard has. I believe this is also the case with DB

Other light I can shed is that the key on New York Subway stock (and very possibly other stock in that neck of the woods as well) actually inhibits the interlock when it’s turned on. So if the conductor sees an obstruction in the doors after closure they simply keep their key on. Turning the key off and “creating” the interlock is deemed sufficiently deliberate to constitute a signal to the driver. Not entirely certain as to the meaning of the buzzer at the first stop but it may well be some sort of test.

 

[bahnause]

After a number of incidents, the UK has established that the "Mk1 eyeball" is far superior than the interlock at checking doors are properly closed. (Though obviously both is best!)

I suspect other European countries will follow our lead when they too have their own tragic and unnecessary loss of life as a result of assuming that that blue* light means it's safe to go.

It is actually going the other way. The new process in switzerland will be DOO for almost all services. The guard will still be there and have an electronic "veto", but he will not be involved in the dispatching process or closing the doors. Almost every train is DOO capable already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other light I can shed is that the key on New York Subway stock (and very possibly other stock in that neck of the woods as well) actually inhibits the interlock when it’s turned on. So if the conductor sees an obstruction in the doors after closure they simply keep their key on. Turning the key off and “creating” the interlock is deemed sufficiently deliberate to constitute a signal to the driver. Not entirely certain as to the meaning of the buzzer at the first stop but it may well be some sort of test.

On GTR's Southern branded services, the OBS (On Board Service staff, I think that stands for!) can do the same - key in and open the local door and the interlock stays on. It's not their responsibility to ensure departure is safe, though, the driver does that, just to make sure nobody is in need of assistance.

There's DOO and DOO. In the UK, a key part of DOO is the driver looking in the cameras/platform mirror, with the interlock just an additional secondary check that the doors have locked properly. In Switzerland I believe it's mostly on the interlock? This does have potential to cause serious incidents involving trapped clothing that isn't thick enough to cause the interlock to fail.

 

[MrJeeves]

On GTR's Southern branded services, the OBS (On Board Service staff, I think that stands for!) can do the same - key in and open the local door and the interlock stays on. It's not their responsibility to ensure departure is safe, though, the driver does that, just to make sure nobody is in need of assistance.

On-board Supervisor

The reason this is done is to both prevent the service departing without the OBS on board (that has actually happened in the past!), and to ensure the OBS can assist passengers who require, for example, a ramp onto the train without the driver potentially closing the doors onto the ramp.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is actually going the other way. The new process in switzerland will be DOO for almost all services. The guard will still be there and have an electronic "veto", but he will not be involved in the dispatching process or closing the doors. Almost every train is DOO capable already.

Indeed. Apart from the UK Europe is generally moving towards automation of functions on its railways.