Just a quick question for any driver managers out there (or anybody that knows). Why are driver manager salaries generally lower than the drivers they are expected to manage? I'm just curious. I hold an equivalent grade within Transport for London and while its not hugely different, we do earn more than drivers. I applied for the job after many years of driving a train as my experience was invaluable in getting the role. On some of the adverts for Driver Manager (say like Govia Thameslink) I've notice the salary is a lot lower than what a driver would earn yet you are still expected to have the same level of knowledge/experience such as diagrams, rules and procedures etc. I'm just wandering what the incentive is if you were a driver for one of these TOC and wanted to move into management? Are there other perks not listed on the job adverts? I know from experience that managing drivers is not an easy job given the culture that exists within the railways and as much as I enjoy my role, I couldn't imagine doing it for less money than the people I'm expected to manage.
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Driver manager salary
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Some TOCs, GTR are one, employ driver “managers” who are not qualified drivers, and essentially just do the admin side of management. They attract a commensurately lower salary.
Traditional fully qualified DMs who will do assessments, investigations etc. as a rule earn more than drivers’ base salaries, but will often still earn less than drivers who do even modest amounts of overtime.
Yes @43066 points out some TOCs split the role (an increasing number actually) where there is a "Driver Manager" who is the line manager and does admin and personnel manager, whilst there is a "Competency Manager" which does the actual assessments/rules/investigations.
Even traditional roles that are split, DMs tend to maybe get more but actually less (Sundays, overtime, RDW etc.) but prefer the more office-based role/environment and steadier hours. It's also- somewhat cynically - suggested some driver who have a few too many issues get shunted off to become managers so they don't drive as much!
Even traditional roles that are split, DMs tend to maybe get more but actually less (Sundays, overtime, RDW etc.) but prefer the more office-based role/environment and steadier hours. It's also- somewhat cynically - suggested some driver who have a few too many issues get shunted off to become managers so they don't drive as much!
Zontar
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Driver competent managers will get slightly more basic than a driver.
But they also get the freedom of static hours. Generally 9-5 but with probably a rota for out of hours cover.
They get weekends and bank holidays off and also much more free reign of applying for leave.
What they don't get financially they are getting in work life balance. For many, this is just as important, if not more, than the figure on your payslip.
But they also get the freedom of static hours. Generally 9-5 but with probably a rota for out of hours cover.
They get weekends and bank holidays off and also much more free reign of applying for leave.
What they don't get financially they are getting in work life balance. For many, this is just as important, if not more, than the figure on your payslip.
whoosh
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I think there's sort of restructure or change going on at GTR. There are more 'Driver Managers' being recruited to give a higher ratio of Manager to Driver.
At the moment that rôle is known as a LOM (Local Operations Manager) and is responsible for admin stuff such as keeping notice boards upto date, booking medicals, return to work interviews, managing for attendance, ordering shoes and bags and HV vests, amongst other things.
What you might think of as a 'Driver Manager' is called a CDM (Competency Development Manager) at GTR. They do ride outs, black box downloads, investigations into incidents, and Competency Development Plans - action plans to mitigate further incidents.
CDMs at GTR get paid more than Drivers, but not much more than Driver Instructors.
They probably get about 10% more than drivers and they work their hours over five days instead of the four that drivers do.
On the mainline railway, the pension being 'final salary' used to be a pro for going into management, but as it's 'career average' now, any large uplift only applies for future service, so it's not as attractive anymore.
Drivers can earn a lot more with overtime - Sundays or Rest Days, although neither of those factor on London Underground, and I don't think the pension arrangements have changed there (yet!) either. Tube Drivers work five days a week, so again, the Manager position is less unattractive there.
(As an aside: I used to work at East Midlands Trains and remember my Manager saying that although his salary was higher than mine as a Driver, his 37 hour week versus my 35 hour week, meant he earned less per hour!)
At the moment that rôle is known as a LOM (Local Operations Manager) and is responsible for admin stuff such as keeping notice boards upto date, booking medicals, return to work interviews, managing for attendance, ordering shoes and bags and HV vests, amongst other things.
What you might think of as a 'Driver Manager' is called a CDM (Competency Development Manager) at GTR. They do ride outs, black box downloads, investigations into incidents, and Competency Development Plans - action plans to mitigate further incidents.
CDMs at GTR get paid more than Drivers, but not much more than Driver Instructors.
They probably get about 10% more than drivers and they work their hours over five days instead of the four that drivers do.
On the mainline railway, the pension being 'final salary' used to be a pro for going into management, but as it's 'career average' now, any large uplift only applies for future service, so it's not as attractive anymore.
Drivers can earn a lot more with overtime - Sundays or Rest Days, although neither of those factor on London Underground, and I don't think the pension arrangements have changed there (yet!) either. Tube Drivers work five days a week, so again, the Manager position is less unattractive there.
(As an aside: I used to work at East Midlands Trains and remember my Manager saying that although his salary was higher than mine as a Driver, his 37 hour week versus my 35 hour week, meant he earned less per hour!)
Yes indeed. Albeit some realise they don’t like doing a five day week, and they still have to do standbys so can still be called out at 0300 on occasion. When doing assessments they often end up working quite extreme hours (by non railway standards) to get the necessary trips done within the time available. They also inevitably end up doing a lot of unpaid overtime, as per “office culture” generally. Then again, they (mostly) get away from shift work!
Horses for courses. Some love it, some do it for a while then go back driving.
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357
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At my TOC the driver managers are qualified drivers and get quite a bit less than regular drivers.
A few of the managers have taken the position to have less time on the handle for their own reasons, others for the steady hours, and some for other reasons.
A few of the managers have taken the position to have less time on the handle for their own reasons, others for the steady hours, and some for other reasons.
Absolutely this, same with conductor managers at our place. Earn slightly more than driver/conductor basic but they don't work unsociable hours, if they did then their pay would likely be quite a bit higher.
Work life balance is one of the main reasons people go into the management side.
Mayfair1501
Member
Looks like GTR are going through a re-org process. The LOMs have had there role changed to Driver Managers with i imagine a lot more responsibility and working more with the competency assessor. Also with more authority for discipline areas. Also heard there will be at least 2/3/4 at depots as per size of drivers.Also the grade has been made safety critical where as it wasn't under the LOM Role i understand
NorthDiver
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Driving is a static grade, so if you want to progress through the company then DTM is the next stepping stone, before pension reforms becoming at DTM meant your whole pension was upgraded so it was worthwhile for a lot of people to switch with 5-10 years to go. People also get bored with driving and getting up at 0300 in the morning is harder when you are 50 than when you are 30. The DTMs at my place rock up about 0700 and leave about 1500 so it's a lot healthier than shift work.
12LDA28C
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Depends what you mean by the salary being 'lower' than the drivers. I'm not aware of a DM's base salary at any TOC being less than a driver's base salary at the same TOC although there may be exceptions. I believe a competitive salary for a DM these days would be around £72,000.
A rather different matter is that DM's base salary cannot be supplemented with Sunday working, Rest Day Working and overtime which of course would take a driver's earning potential way above that of their manager. This is exactly why it's hard to recruit into the DM role from the driver's grade although there are some benefits such as flexible working, more 'office hours' than shiftwork, weekends off (except when on call) and so on.
If you consider that a driver may have a 4 day working week and a DM works a 5 day week as a base point, you can work out the hourly pay. Hope it makes sense, DMs are working 52 days extra a year and they don’t just switch off when they go home.
Long day for a Manager
Indeed. What time are you finishing work these days?!
DMs in the “admin/line managing” sense are on circa £30k(?)
357
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A driver works longer shifts.
Had this argument when I changed from a roster based on 5 days a week to a roster based on 4 days a week, and the company got funny about my annual leave. I needed to point out that both rosters were based on an average 35 hour week.
The reason drivers at many companies have a 4 day week is because they are working longer shifts.
Yes, but many managers work far more than 35 hours per week across those 5 days is the point I was making. If we work overtime we get paid for it. Managers don’t. They can pick and choose their hours but their workload makes it hard to claw overtime back.
357
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Ah, yes, now we are on the same page.
I agree with you, however whenever a manager has complained to me about this I've always taken the attitude that it's for them as a grade and their union to fix.
Every TOC I've ever worked for has had managers who always answer the phone, and those that turn it off the moment they leave the office, with most managers somewhere in-between.
Yes I imagine that’s one point. Also many may be in the grade and see the “Monday-Friday, 9-5” as a major benefit away from more severe shift work.
Also they have the ability to see both the early and late shift at their depot, even if just for a quick chat.
So only £3.5k more than a Network Rail graduate, and £4.5k more than a university student doing time in the train planning unit for a year in industry as part of their course...
Gemz91
Member
The opportunity to work from home is a big draw for DM’s too.
The TOC I am at Driver managers are paid a small percentge above the drivers that they manage , and the conductor managers are on a management salary band that sees them paid more than the conductors they manage . But in reality the operational staff members who do even modest amounts of overtime have the potential to out earn their managers .
There are however many other motivations for people that go into management , some of them to get away from shifts , some didn't like the job , some just aspired to be management and there are some using it as a springboard into other areas like standards or more senior management positions . Managers at our place to some extent get to set their hours of work as long as their work is getting done .
There are however times they get less choice . For example if they need to do a ride out with someone that is perm PM's then they have to make sure they are there at the time that person is . Likewise they have on-call committment and occassionally meetings that get set by higher management for times they might prefer not to be at work .
Even though most of their work time was from home during covid , that seems to be the exception rather than the rule now .
There are however many other motivations for people that go into management , some of them to get away from shifts , some didn't like the job , some just aspired to be management and there are some using it as a springboard into other areas like standards or more senior management positions . Managers at our place to some extent get to set their hours of work as long as their work is getting done .
There are however times they get less choice . For example if they need to do a ride out with someone that is perm PM's then they have to make sure they are there at the time that person is . Likewise they have on-call committment and occassionally meetings that get set by higher management for times they might prefer not to be at work .
Even though most of their work time was from home during covid , that seems to be the exception rather than the rule now .
12LDA28C
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Could you define 'line managing'? Any manager who manages driver competency (which is what a DM should be doing) is not going to be earning circa 30k. That is an admin assistant's salary for someone who supports the DM function by ordering stationery, booking meeting rooms etc.
class ep-09
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There is
There is difference between DM ( more or less drivers admin manager ) and DSM - who is looking after competency / incidents / assessments etc.
12LDA28C
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It all depends on what each individual TOC calls its managers. At my employer the DSM role was renamed DM with no loss of responsibility or remit. A true Driver Manager, whether called a DM or DSM should be earning more than the drivers they manage.
As has been said further up this thread, some TOCs have Driver Managers who are effectively people managers in the same way as any other manager is, they just aren’t train drivers and as such don’t assess competencies of those they manage.
They still carry out all other management tasks, just nothing involving train driving. That’s why they can be paid £40k or whatever. I mean, if they were paying £40k for DMs but wanted qualified train drivers, I very much doubt they’d get much uptake. There’s pros and cons I guess, in that it means (certainly at larger depots) competence managers etc can focus solely on the operational aspects of the job, whereas non competence managers can concentrate on all other areas.
12LDA28C
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Fair enough, but personally I wouldn't call them a Driver Manager if all they're doing is basic admin stuff, regardless of their job title.
PupCuff
Member
They aren't just doing basic admin stuff, they're managing the drivers.
Competence management is only one bit of managing drivers - it's certainly the most visible to the frontline staff but there are a myriad of other tasks Driver Managers have to do which don't require driving competency. To analogise, the store manager in an Asda does more than check the staff know how to use the tills!
There's certainly an argument to say it's wasteful having a driver-qualified manager who is a) paid a premium, and b) probably from a driving background not a management background, doing the day-to-day management stuff. I support letting the driver-qualified DMs focus on competence management and whoever else is most suitable and competent for the general management can come in and sort the rest.
Competency is probably the smallest part of the DM job.
Probably why "competency managers" are named as such.
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