Frustrating for the driver?? Jesus.. First World problems there.. just drive to the signals, thw second you get restrictives, delay is on them, not us.
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Drivers v Signallers
- Thread starter Nobby
- Start date
Frustrating for the driver?? Jesus.. First World problems there.. just drive to the signals, thw second you get restrictives, delay is on them, not us.
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R
RailUK Forums
Is that a bit like the old "track-circuited ballast" whereby the signal would clear just as you climbed down the cab steps?
A late friend had a cab ride in Ireland. Train belting along; distant at caution, home at danger, crossing gates still across the line, train still at line speed. "It's all right, Mick will have the gates open in a minute."
dk1
Veteran Member
I try not to press it using common sense but when I do & it immediately clears always shout “sorry” to the Bobby lol.
Failed Unit
Established Member
For those of a certain age. “There is only one way to resolve this - FIGHT”
(for those too you to understand the reference - google Harry Hill)
Just struck me as reading the title, although the thread itself is very professiona.
(for those too you to understand the reference - google Harry Hill)
Just struck me as reading the title, although the thread itself is very professiona.
The aspect restriction is a great point - some signals will not turn green and will be held at red until a train has occupied the track circuit immediately on approach to it, especially at junctions- even if the signaller set the route for it 5 minutes ago.
A thing I will also add is that many signallers are often limited to running trains by a process called "double blocking" all winter due to increased leaf fall.
This leads to trains disappearing on the track circuits and signallers can't see where the trains are in their section. This could lead to trains being signalled into the back of eachother - not a good failure to deal with, obviously.
So instead of trains being 1 signal section apart, signallers must keep trains apart by two signal sections and sometimes even more. On absolute block lines, in some boxes, the signaller can't even send a train past their box until the driver of the next signal box has seen the tail lamp of the train ahead - doesn't matter how many signals are in between. Therefore a signal will suddenly go from a red to a green. Sometimes I wonder if drivers are aware of this method of working - it stops trains for seemingly no reason as they pull up to a red signal. Then it will suddenly go green after a few minutes once the next signaller has seen the tail lamp and the train can proceed. Signallers are under strict instructions to obey these rules with reminders on levers. I once observed a passenger driver pull up to a red signal because of this way of working, and they immediately called the signaller. The signaller explained there was nothing out of the ordinary, due to increased leaf fall they were having to kept trains apart and they would be a short delay of a few minutes. The driver was confused by it.
Anyway, it's something to keep in mind that signalling often involves a lot going on behind the scenes. Also, this "double blocking" can last all the way from October - January. There's often a lot of multitasking to deal as a signaller and a train rolling up a red signal is never the worst thing in the world - especially if it makes a situation safer and there's a lot going on.
A thing I will also add is that many signallers are often limited to running trains by a process called "double blocking" all winter due to increased leaf fall.
This leads to trains disappearing on the track circuits and signallers can't see where the trains are in their section. This could lead to trains being signalled into the back of eachother - not a good failure to deal with, obviously.
So instead of trains being 1 signal section apart, signallers must keep trains apart by two signal sections and sometimes even more. On absolute block lines, in some boxes, the signaller can't even send a train past their box until the driver of the next signal box has seen the tail lamp of the train ahead - doesn't matter how many signals are in between. Therefore a signal will suddenly go from a red to a green. Sometimes I wonder if drivers are aware of this method of working - it stops trains for seemingly no reason as they pull up to a red signal. Then it will suddenly go green after a few minutes once the next signaller has seen the tail lamp and the train can proceed. Signallers are under strict instructions to obey these rules with reminders on levers. I once observed a passenger driver pull up to a red signal because of this way of working, and they immediately called the signaller. The signaller explained there was nothing out of the ordinary, due to increased leaf fall they were having to kept trains apart and they would be a short delay of a few minutes. The driver was confused by it.
Anyway, it's something to keep in mind that signalling often involves a lot going on behind the scenes. Also, this "double blocking" can last all the way from October - January. There's often a lot of multitasking to deal as a signaller and a train rolling up a red signal is never the worst thing in the world - especially if it makes a situation safer and there's a lot going on.
Temporary approach control is used quite regularly at both Havant and Bournemouth boxes if I’m remembering rightly. Where those systems aren’t particularly reliable there are a few signals that quite often can’t show a particular aspect, or there’s a repeat horn vice bell on the AWS a signal will be restricted using TAC to prevent repeat failures or reports of issues.
Canonite
Member
With the greatest of respect, a Driver would not ”definitely know the route ahead is clear”.
Being aware of a timetable and knowing there isn’t a train ahead of you doesn’t mean the route is clear.
It could be all manner of reasons.
Simple answer there is no - we weren't taught anything about double blocking, 3:5 working or much else really. We were given a basic understanding of how the signalling system worked but that was about it unless the rulebook had requirements for drivers.
But we aren't talking about the minutiae of signalling specifics. Some days you are literally staring out the window looking at the section ahead with nothing ahead of you.
Not talking about approach control, checking down, shared overlaps, double blocking, ARS, SARS, TRTS or ETC.
There are places where you can see multiple sections ahead that are "clear" but that Red just glares at you in the distance. If I get checked to Red randomly towards "clear" sections; my brain heads towards passing it at danger (typically track circuit faults). However, when it pings to green...
One of my favourites was a Signaler coming back to me admitting they were on an "Emergency PNB".
357
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Nov 2018
- Messages
- 1,371
While I accept that generally it is impossible, there are many cases on routes I sign that you can see the entire section ahead of you and a good number where you can see the one after too.
Yet I was taught and the hundreds of Signallers I have taught, to always keep trains moving, even on a single yellow. In a lot of occasions if you stop a train on a red, it will take a while for them to move again, especially if a heavy train.
Annetts key
Established Member
But what you cannot see visually is what the signalling interlocking system knows or does not know. Or what parts of the system are not working. Or what the signaller knows.
It may be that the ARS or signaller has not routed the signal for some reason. But it could also be any number of other things.
And yes, the signaller needing to go to the toilet, but forgetting to route a signal because it's been busy is a thing. I've seen this myself when I've been on an operating floor. SPT/GSM-R ringing...
There could be a failure of part of the signalling system.
Some examples that have occurred in the past include a yellow aspect in the red signal you have been stopped at was defective or a red aspect in one of the signals ahead of you being defective. The workaround being to hold trains at a red aspect until the sections ahead are clear so that the signaller can give you a run of green aspects.
In the past, there has been a cable fault, I could give the signaller only the red and green aspects in a signal. The yellow and top yellow aspects were defective, if the signal had tried to show either, it would have gone 'black' (unlit).
Yes, if you can see greens ahead of the red signal, those examples may not be applicable. But the signalling system is complex, and there are many different possible failures.
S&T may be working on the signalling system, they have been given an occupation, but the work has taken longer than expected. Hence the signaller has to hold the protecting signal at red. Once the S&T have given the occupation back, the signaller can route/clear the signal, which changes to green...
There are various other faults or reasons.
Generally speaking, most signallers do not deliberately let trains slow or stop at red signals for no good reason. The train reporting systems on track circuit (axle counter) block areas can tell how long a section is occupied for (time) and if it's a controlled signal, if it is suppose to be showing a red or proceed aspect. I'm sure I don't need to explain any further.
Bristol Panel used to slow the Bridgwater flask trains as they went through the trainshed at Temple Meads, then clear the signal so that the driver opened out the throttle on the 37 as it passed the panel building.
I remember a charter up here (might have been last year) hauled by a class 40. The train was due to be overtaken by a public service. The signaller platformed the charter such that once it got a green it would be able to open up with no PSRs to worry about over crossovers. He also waited until the absolute block section was clear (long section overnight as an intermediate box was switched out) before clearing the platform starter to green, rather than letting the train crawl down to the section signal.
I'd better point out that virtually no delay (we're not counting seconds) occurred in either case.
Annetts key
Established Member
Yeah, some signallers are, err, train enthusiasts
Sunset route
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Oct 2015
- Messages
- 1,189
I would prefer qualified drivers over trainee drivers making a visit to our ASC as they will ask more probing questions and require for more in depth answers, especially junction working, rare shunt moves and we can show them where we have signalling overlap issues that prevent multi routes bring set for multiple trains at certain locations, meaning that some trains will have to wait.
Southeastern TOC drivers always visited the signal box at London Bridge. When it is was moved 30+ miles away to Three Bridges ROC, Southeastern TOC drivers never visited the location again. Probably the cost of sending a dozen Drivers of area to visit. At London Bridge, I used to get Drivers to sit down and signal trains to see what we did. They soon realised that out on the ground they could see around six trains on average, they never realised that each signaller would signal a train every 30 seconds. It is something that should be promoted throughout the railway industry. Not just Drivers and Signallers, all staff & managers to get an appreciation of what each role has to deal with. It does amaze me that you often hear Drivers say they are responsible for hundreds of passengers, rarely do you hear that Signallers are responsible for tens of trains, Drivers and thus thousands of passengers. The number of times I have signalled trains during the "rush hours" at London Bridge without the security of the signalling system because it has failed, the trains ( hence passengers & drivers) safety totally reliant on my actions and not the signalling system. Drivers visiting the Signalling locations and seeing this and having it explained to them will think twice the next time they sit at a red signal that changes up to to green when they press the SG.
CarrotPie
Member
The whole message is very good, and it helps advocate drivers visiting 'boxes/ROCs, but I feel like drivers signalling routes would be a bit more of a problem today!
When they visit Colchester Box, which is quite rare now, they have the chance to visit the simulator room too, there they could sit with a Signalman, or Manager, and have a go at signalling trains, with assistance of course
when they pop back onto the ops floor, they suddenly had a new appreciation of the workload, the sim is for the MCS workstaions, the NX panels, we'd let them play 'live' 
No not at all. Having a Driver sit down and signal routes would only be like sitting down a Trainee Signaller on their first day to signal routes. The ability to show them and then let them have a go at it is so beneficial. They could see that ARS (SARS or whatever equivilant out there) is not automatic signalling and is an assistant to for the signaller. The Signaller can switch of a ARS sub-area and allow that area to be signalled manually by the Driver. And for a Signaller to say to a Driver, "what if that Signal doesn't change up what would you do?" and then explain to them what a Signaller actually does is a big eye opener. And not to Drivers alone, a lot, and I mean a lot, of managers should take time out. The number of Managers that go to Signalling School and pass a course and wave the Certificate proclaiming they now are a Signaller, but when given the chance to take over a workstation run a mile is disheartening. The problem today is that Signalling locations are getting far apart from Drivers actual areas for them to visit.