Driving a steam locomotive and tender backwards.

[Deepgreen]

Running a steam engine tender-first is, and always has been, very common. Either chimney-first or tender-first running requires joint work by driver and fireman for sighting purposes. Tender-first running is necessary whenever an engine needs to be moved when facing 'backwards' without a turntable being available. Passenger and freight workings would commonly be tender-first on secondary routes. It was extremely rare to see express passenger tender-first running - generally only in emergency situations. I suppose a modern equivalent would be when class 91s have to run 'blunt end' forward, when they have a reduced permitted top speed. Crews generally preferred chimney-first working because it avoided coal dust being blown into the cab, but, in its favour, tender-first running also avoided the exhaust possibly obscuring the view ahead.

 

[edwin_m]

See here for more info.

I was referring to what Wikipedia calls the "aerial under the train", antenna being effectively another word for aerial and probably a better one in this case as it's not up in the air.

 

[Taunton]

Tender first, pulling a train, not an issue. Tender first propelling the train in front of you a bit more caution is needed, but again not an issue.

At Paddington, it was normal to try and "save" a pilot engine duty on the empty coaching stock to/from Old Oak Common sidings by using a main line loco which was about to do, or had just come from, main line duties. So everything up to a King would be commandeered to bring some stock in tender first, and sit on the buffers heating the train. When the train loco arrived and the train departed, the loco would shunt to its intended main line duty. This accounts for the various photographs of a main line loco sat against the Paddington buffers facing forward with a train ahead of it. The converse happened , to use an arrived loco to move stock tender first out to Old Oak.

Don't forget there are two crew on a steam loco and the fireman has less to do during such manoeuvres, so will commonly be leaning out to assist the driver.

At Taunton, arrivals to the Up bay at the NW end of the station were in a dead end with no run-round. Sidings out west towards the Staplegrove Road bridge were also dead end, so there was no alternative but to push the train back with no pilot loco, which otherwise would end up against the siding buffers. Fireman leaned well out of the cab and shouted all ok to the driver, who just pushed the coaches back at fast walking pace. Meanwhile, shunter is in the forwardmost vestibule, also leaning well out of the droplight to look ahead. and is making slow "shunt back" arm signals, amplified with a fistful of paper towels grabbed from the adjacent toilet!

Sometimes the stock was intended for the sidings over on the Down side instead, and this would take place right across the 4-track main line.

Never an incident.

Crews generally preferred chimney-first working because it avoided coal dust being blown into the cab

David L Smith, in his books about the G&SW 100 years ago, describes how the loco prepared for the Royal Train was derailed. The polished-up standby was 20 miles away. It was driven at over 70 mph tender-first to get there as quickly as possible. Anyone in those days on the footplate who carried goggles would have been seen as a softie!

 

[Calthrop]

A bit of trivia, at a tangent from this thread: I seem to remember reading that in the days of steam in Ireland, Irish railway undertakings in general tended to be very averse to the practice of tender- or bunker-first running, and minimised it -- thus, generous provision of turntables and triangles, and insistence on their use to turn locos. No idea why this should have been an issue in Ireland more than in Great Britain; but seemingly it was.

 

[chorleyjeff]

At one time I think there was a turntable at Lakeside which of course is now long gone.

About 60 years ago the tender engine went tender first up the. branch then at home time it ran tender first down the branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Running a steam engine tender-first is, and always has been, very common. Either chimney-first or tender-first running requires joint work by driver and fireman for sighting purposes. Tender-first running is necessary whenever an engine needs to be moved when facing 'backwards' without a turntable being available. Passenger and freight workings would commonly be tender-first on secondary routes. It was extremely rare to see express passenger tender-first running - generally only in emergency situations. I suppose a modern equivalent would be when class 91s have to run 'blunt end' forward, when they have a reduced permitted top speed. Crews generally preferred chimney-first working because it avoided coal dust being blown into the cab, but, in its favour, tender-first running also avoided the exhaust possibly obscuring the view ahead.

Drivers must have prefered to have 4MT tanks chimney first around Preston because they used to take the trouble to turn them on a manually powered turntable rather thanrun bunker first. Used to watch them from the then
platform 6 or glass bridge.

 

[alexl92]

The ex L&Y certainly used tender engines backwards on passenger trains when necessary - have seen pictures of Crabs doing soon the Calder Valley line.

Where would one find such pictures? Would love to see steam-era photos of the Calder/Pennine routes.

 

[furnessvale]

About 60 years ago the tender engine went tender first up the. branch then at home time it ran tender first down the branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Drivers must have prefered to have 4MT tanks chimney first around Preston because they used to take the trouble to turn them on a manually powered turntable rather thanrun bunker first. Used to watch them from the then
platform 6 or glass bridge.

Any loco running tender first will put the driver on the wrong side for signal sighting. Whilst the fireman is a useful second pair of eyes, I should imagine the driver would prefer to be in the right position to use his own "first set of eyes".

 

[PHILIPE]

Any loco running tender first will put the driver on the wrong side for signal sighting. Whilst the fireman is a useful second pair of eyes, I should imagine the driver would prefer to be in the right position to use his own "first set of eyes".

Would depend on whether left or right hand drive. Western Locos were right hand drive as compared to the other regions where the driver was on the side of the signals when going head first.

 

[furnessvale]

Would depend on whether left or right hand drive. Western Locos were right hand drive as compared to the other regions where the driver was on the side of the signals when going head first.

I know that, but any loco going tender first, on its own territory, is going to wrong side the driver.

 

[Argosy]

Where would one find such pictures? Would love to see steam-era photos of the Calder/Pennine routes.

In April 2010 there was an instance of double headed tender first operation of around 100 miles with an 11 coach WCRC steam special.

 

[daikilo]

Where would one find such pictures? Would love to see steam-era photos of the Calder/Pennine routes.

Try the lyrs at http://www.lyrs.org.uk/

 

[E&W Lucas]

Would depend on whether left or right hand drive. Western Locos were right hand drive as compared to the other regions where the driver was on the side of the signals when going head first.

Oh dear.
The main problem with sighting signals is curvature. Example- left hand drive loco, right hand curve, the driver is blind to the route ahead, as he can't see through a boiler (assuming a decent sized loco). High sided tenders have the same effect. This is why route knowledge and teamwork are so very important.

Right hand drive was not confined to the Western, and left and right hand drive can operate equally safely over any route.
Edit- I know about the Britannia hand rails before anyone mentions it. A case of needing to find an explanation, and needing to be seen to have done something (cheap and inconsequential) about it.

 

[rebmcr]

In April 2010 there was an instance of double headed tender first operation of around 100 miles with an 11 coach WCRC steam special.

Given that this was WCRC, are we sure they even meant to go in that direction?

 

[Taunton]

Right hand drive was not confined to the Western, and left and right hand drive can operate equally safely over any route.

However the Western actually placed many of their signals on the right as well, which I don't think others like the North Eastern did. The main advantage of the driver on the right is the fireman works on the left and can thus fire right-handed, which for most is more straightforward.

Edit- I know about the Britannia hand rails before anyone mentions it. A case of needing to find an explanation, and needing to be seen to have done something (cheap and inconsequential) about it.

A reference to the Swindon accident of 1955 I think. In addition to the handrails on the smoke deflectors obstructing the line of sight, the implementation of the GWR-type ATC (AWS) was so poorly designed (by Crewe) that when the driver missed the distant and it operated, the vacuum ejector of the locomotive was more than a match for it and kept the brakes off. There was the warning siren as well, of course, but that was inaudible on a loco type well known to be exceptionally noisy at speed compared to a 30-year old Castle of equivalent power. The loco had to be driven from the left side although the signals, particularly the key distant, were on the right on this line. Every depot on the Western other than Canton, where the crew were from, had refused to have anything to do with the type after a while.

 

[alexl92]

In April 2010 there was an instance of double headed tender first operation of around 100 miles with an 11 coach WCRC steam special.

Really?!

 

[Argosy]

Really?!

Yes. When operating to Stranraer there are no turning facilities there. In a rather complicated process of shunting one ends up with 2 x Black Fives running tender first back towards Glasgow.

In 2010 they ran back to Glasgow double tender first all the way as far as Elderslie before the pilot loco uncoupled and went on the rear.

In 2012 they ran back as far as Kilwinning before repeating the process in 2010 and in 2014 it was Ayr. I have photos of this and a good shot at Glenwhilly. I was also on all the trains.

 

[QueensCurve]

Until around 2008 the steam special trains on that line terminated at Sellafield because there was a triangular junction there where they could turn around as they were banned beyond Maryport because of low tunnels.

Two other reasons for Sellafield;-

• There was a working water tower
• Steam railtours were promoted by the Sellafield visitor centre for a time.

I think the restricted tunnel was Whitehaven (formerly Bransty) tunnel. I can (just) remember traveling on steam trains where the Guard came along shutting windows before the tunnel.

 

[Taunton]

Tenders suffer from notable differences in weight dependent on whether they are full or empty. A steam loco in full working order (which simplistically is with the boiler full of water) is pretty much the same weight at all times, and can be sprung accordingly, whereas an average 6-wheel tender may hold 6 tons of coal and 5,000 gallons (say 22 tons) of water in an empty tender weight of about 15 tons. So it can be 15 tons axle weight leaving the shed, and only 5 tons axle weight returning, which has a significant impact on vehicle dynamics if you are propelling it across uneven points or if its wheels develop hunting around curves.

 

[E&W Lucas]

However the Western actually placed many of their signals on the right as well, which I don't think others like the North Eastern did. The main advantage of the driver on the right is the fireman works on the left and can thus fire right-handed, which for most is more straightforward.

:roll:
If you're actually proficient in the use of a shovel, it doesn't make a jot of difference which hand you fire with.