Driving well below the speed limit

[Peter Sarf]

Signage could be better in many locations. I would prefer it if speed camera signs always included the limit.

(Link to illustration of speed camera and 30 limit symbols combined into one)

Speed camera ahead sign - Highway Code

Save A sign indicating that speed cameras are in use on the road ahead, alongside a clear 30 miles per hour speed limit sign.

highwaycode.org.uk

I remember seeing speed camera signs in a National Speed Limit area and wondering if I'd missed signs telling me of a lower limit. Nope, it was enforcing the NSL. Nice to be told this.

I have found myself wondering if I have missed a speed limit sign which then means I am potentially distracted.

Also evident on the M25

A friend has been know to pass them in lane one (thus a lane separation should they suddenly choose to pull in) and watch them still ‘marooned’ in lane 3 in his or her rear view mirror.

Yes I will stick in lane 1 to undertake. I cannot bring myself to check and indicate THREE times to get from lane 1 to lane 4.

 

[Harpo]

On a 4 lane stretch of pretty empty M6 at 9pm there were loads of cars just tootling along at 70 in the third lane with nothing ahead to their left as far as the eye could see at times.

I’ve also experienced that on the M6 at night. With all of the cameras and surveillance technology available, education by written notice and subsequent enforcement ought to be very simple.

 

[Lockwood]

There's an NSL road near me. Mostly straight, but with a fair few changes in vertical deviation.

The speed people take it, they may as well just put 30 signs along it... People will invariably do 30 along there, until they hit the 30 limit at either end, then they'll aim for 40.


A funny anecdote on lessons and speed and stuff...
I was doing an advanced driving course... Over ten years ago? I feel old now... and we were in a 30 limit. Instructor asks me what the speed limit is "30" "So why are you doing 28?!" I then aim for 30. "31?! Are you trying to kill us all?!"


On lane hoggers... Again many years ago, I was travelling along the M4 at night. I was doing "a speed suitable for the journey I was making and the conditions". I was in the rightmost lane as that felt the most appropriate place to be. End up meeting a pastel blue Fiat 500 sat in Lane 3 doing spot on 70. Lanes 1 and 2 were clear. No response to any polite requests to move over, so I end up passing on the inside in lane 1 - giving wiggle room if she decided to move over as I was passing. As I look when I'm going back to Lane 3, I get the dirtiest look from her.
Ok, did I *need* to be in Lane 3? Maybe not, but with the nature of the journey it seemed appropriate to get out and stay out as I was expecting to be overtaking everything else.

Though I've had it the other way, and been in Lane 3 on the M1 doing... "appropriate speeds for the journey" and having cars up my backside and moving over to let them pass. Did have one decide that actually if I'm doing my speed and moving over to let them go that perhaps they should ease off a bit. And had someone undertake me while I was doing my maximum permitted speed.



I guess the takeaway here is that you'll always find someone doing something unhelpful on the road.

Come on... It's a team sport. It's better if we work together.

 

[AM9]

There's an NSL road near me. Mostly straight, but with a fair few changes in vertical deviation.

The speed people take it, they may as well just put 30 signs along it... People will invariably do 30 along there, until they hit the 30 limit at either end, then they'll aim for 40.


A funny anecdote on lessons and speed and stuff...
I was doing an advanced driving course... Over ten years ago? I feel old now... and we were in a 30 limit. Instructor asks me what the speed limit is "30" "So why are you doing 28?!" I then aim for 30. "31?! Are you trying to kill us all?!"


On lane hoggers... Again many years ago, I was travelling along the M4 at night. I was doing "a speed suitable for the journey I was making and the conditions". I was in the rightmost lane as that felt the most appropriate place to be. End up meeting a pastel blue Fiat 500 sat in Lane 3 doing spot on 70. Lanes 1 and 2 were clear. No response to any polite requests to move over, so I end up passing on the inside in lane 1 - giving wiggle room if she decided to move over as I was passing. As I look when I'm going back to Lane 3, I get the dirtiest look from her.
Ok, did I *need* to be in Lane 3? Maybe not, but with the nature of the journey it seemed appropriate to get out and stay out as I was expecting to be overtaking everything else.

Though I've had it the other way, and been in Lane 3 on the M1 doing... "appropriate speeds for the journey" and having cars up my backside and moving over to let them pass. Did have one decide that actually if I'm doing my speed and moving over to let them go that perhaps they should ease off a bit. And had someone undertake me while I was doing my maximum permitted speed.



I guess the takeaway here is that you'll always find someone doing something unhelpful on the road.

Come on... It's a team sport. It's better if we work together.

Please explain what "a speed suitable for the journey" and "appropriate speeds for the journey" are.

 

[Lockwood]

This is what happens when I type while distracted.

Can't remember the M4 one, M1 was a steady 90, policy being speed limit+50%, capped to 90. M4 would have been similar or higher as the 90 cap wasn't in effect there.

Suitable warning devices were activated and the speed is permitted under Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

Edit - still distracted. These are ones that have managed to stick in my mind for whatever reason. All journeys here were in fully marked emergency vehicles and undertaken as part of an incident justifying the use of the speed.

Think it started off as a fun story about an annoying Fiat 500 driver, and turned into a ranting brain dump.

 

[AM9]

This is what happens when I type while distracted.

Can't remember the M4 one, M1 was a steady 90, policy being speed limit+50%, capped to 90. M4 would have been similar or higher as the 90 cap wasn't in effect there.

Suitable warning devices were activated and the speed is permitted under Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

Edit - still distracted. These are ones that have managed to stick in my mind for whatever reason. All journeys here were in fully marked emergency vehicles and undertaken as part of an incident justifying the use of the speed.

Think it started off as a fun story about an annoying Fiat 500 driver, and turned into a ranting brain dump.

Am I to assume that you are an ambulance driver or similar?

 

[BJames]

Afraid my mother is a culprit of this sort of behaviour.

When driving on a 40 mph section of road at 30 mph, I asked her why she couldn't go at the speed limit (I had a train to catch!) and she said that she didn't feel safe going faster after dark. This descended into an extended argument about 'limit not target' and me saying that driving instructors don't teach that and her saying 'well it wasn't like that when I passed my test 40 years ago' etc etc. Immensely frustrating.

 

[Meerkat]

As I have said on other threads, I do that all the time. I passed 200 cars between Knutsford and Oldbury like that one Sunday evening before I stopped counting.

I reckon we were co-ordinating by similar motives but on the M1 once (southbound from Luton the lane hogging is appalling) three of us simultaneously overtook a car in lane 3 of 4. Still didnt get the message. You then get into an empty bit of motorway and in the mirror you see the culprit and a wall of cars held up to filter round them 'properly'.

I got so fed up with it I started looking who was doing it. I was expecting the stereotypes of the scared female and the old boy in 'I'm doing 70 so no one should need to overtake', but it seemed to be disproportionately middle aged asian men, which I can't explain. I kept keeping note because this seemed odd and it has held across different times and places. One of them came straight out of an on slip into lane 3 of 4 on an empty motorway!

The other odd thing is that lane hoggers work in reference to the central reservation not the left hand side - so lane 2 of 3 and lane 3 of 4. Weird.

 

[AM9]

Afraid my mother is a culprit of this sort of behaviour.

When driving on a 40 mph section of road at 30 mph, I asked her why she couldn't go at the speed limit (I had a train to catch!) and she said that she didn't feel safe going faster after dark. This descended into an extended argument about 'limit not target' and me saying that driving instructors don't teach that and her saying 'well it wasn't like that when I passed my test 40 years ago' etc etc. Immensely frustrating.

So long as some authorities persist in prosecuting drivers for exceeding the limit by small margins, the practice of driving just (say 2mph) below the limit should not be criticised by those who regularly grossly exceed the lergal limit. Thyere is no justification in tailgating.

 

[Bald Rick]

This descended into an extended argument about 'limit not target' and me saying that driving instructors don't teach that and her saying 'well it wasn't like that when I passed my test 40 years ago' etc etc. Immensely frustrating.

I passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago, and I can assure your mother that I was not taught about ‘limit not target’. I was actually taught that going over the speed limit is acceptable if absolutely necessary to avoid a potential unsafe situation (albeit likely to be a rare event).

 

[jon0844]

So long as some authorities persist in prosecuting drivers for exceeding the limit by small margins, the practice of driving just (say 2mph) below the limit should not be criticised by those who regularly grossly exceed the lergal limit. Thyere is no justification in tailgating.

Given your speedo can't say you're going faster than you are, the offset means you're perfectly safe doing an indicated 30 in a 30, because as GPS would show you, you're likely doing 28mph. Maybe even 27 on some cars.

Those who claim to have been done for only doing a few mph over the limit were quite clearly being shown a speed even higher.

I drive to the speed shown on Waze rather than the speedo and have never had an issue. Years ago I even went into the hidden menu of my car to turn off the offset so I could see my actual speed.

 

[Meerkat]

I passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago, and I can assure your mother that I was not taught about ‘limit not target’. I was actually taught that going over the speed limit is acceptable if absolutely necessary to avoid a potential unsafe situation (albeit likely to be a rare event).

That’s why I hate average speed cameras. People won’t overtake; on motorways you get stuck, or get people stuck, in blindspots or next to lorries; and when merges/lane changes are needed people brake into gaps - which is less safe than accelerating into one.

 

[jfollows]

Given your speedo can't say you're going faster than you are, the offset means you're perfectly safe doing an indicated 30 in a 30, because as GPS would show you, you're likely doing 28mph. Maybe even 27 on some cars.

Those who claim to have been done for only doing a few mph over the limit were quite clearly being shown a speed even higher.

I drive to the speed shown on Waze rather than the speedo and have never had an issue. Years ago I even went into the hidden menu of my car to turn off the offset so I could see my actual speed.

Exactly, and prosecution/enforcement doesn’t start until +10%+2mph, so an indicated 30 is likely 7 or 8 mph under the prosecution limit.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

So long as some authorities persist in prosecuting drivers for exceeding the limit by small margins, the practice of driving just (say 2mph) below the limit should not be criticised by those who regularly grossly exceed the lergal limit. Thyere is no justification in tailgating.

I think it's normally 10%+1mph leeway they allow isn't it? i.e. 35 or above in a 30 or 46 in a 40 will get you points and a fine.

Also worth noting that the speedo in many cars reads under - mine does by about 2 or 3 mph - I can tell as I have a separate satnav which measures the speed using GPS.

 

[bspahh]

What is also annoying are roundabouts where fences have been installed to block the sight lines into them. The roundabout from Hamble onto the M27 is one and I recall the same on the A505 near Duxford

There is a roundabout on the A10 between Cambridge and Ely where the middle has been built up so you can't see the Southbound entry when you approach from Cambridge.

Once, I was trundling along in the evening rush hour traffic and at the apex of the roundabout I saw a 1994 Landrover Discovery, upside down on my lane from the exit of the roundabout. I swerved to stay on the roundabout, but it clipped the rear wing of my car.

There are some pictures in this post.

Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

What do you mean by there should not be a market for them? Markets tend to define themselves. The question is what do you get from an SUV which you can't get from other cars? BTW statistical they are no safety than other cars, as whilst you may well have a marginally better view of the road...

www.railforums.co.uk

The accident was caused by a drunk driver missing the turn, braking so they locked their wheels and turning to the right. When they slowed enough to regain grip, it lurched to the right and rolled.

If I had been able to see over the middle of the roundabout, I would have been able to brake and swerve earlier, and avoid the colliision.

 

[jon0844]

Exactly, and prosecution doesn’t start until +10%+2mph, so an indicated 30 is likely 7 or 8 mph under the prosecution limit.

This.

When people often say they were done doing 36 in a 30, rather than think that's harsh, remember they likely thought they were doing 40.

In effect they were lucky not to be done for the speed they could 'see' they were doing.

Now I don't expect other cars to all drive above what they see in their car that is set to ensure not breaking the law on under reading, but I just don't see justification for always going below the limit without good reason (visibility, weather conditions etc).

If you don't feel comfortable at speed then you may well need to consider if it's time to stop driving and putting others at risk. Driving slower doesn't suddenly make you safe.

 

[Meerkat]

Exactly, and prosecution doesn’t start until +10%+2mph, so an indicated 30 is likely 7 or 8 mph under the prosecution limit.

I wouldn’t gamble that on motorway cameras. I’ve seen the ones on the M3 going off for cars that i am sure aren’t doing 80.
PS how dangerous are those motorway cameras at the side, pointing across the lanes?! Got one full in the face at night on an unlit M25 - blinding flash scaring the crap out of me!

 

[jon0844]

Also worth noting that the speedo in many cars reads under - mine does by about 2 or 3 mph - I can tell as I have a separate satnav which measures the speed using GPS.

By law they cannot show a lower speed. Get it fixed.

 

[jfollows]

I think it's normally 10%+1mph leeway they allow isn't it? i.e. 35 or above in a 30 or 46 in a 40 will get you points and a fine.

Also worth noting that the speedo in many cars reads under - mine does by about 2 or 3 mph - I can tell as I have a separate satnav which measures the speed using GPS.

Yes, 10%+2 is the starting point for enforcement (which is what I said) so 10%+1 is the likely maximum you are safe from this threat at, we are in agreement.

 

[Harpo]

Yes, 10%+2 is the starting point for enforcement (which is what I said) so 10%+1 is the likely maximum you are safe from this threat at, we are in agreement.

Having a pal who is still very unhappy about a 33mph in a 30mph fine, all assumptions about enforcement criteria are purely that.

 

[Meerkat]

Having a pal who is still very unhappy about a 33mph in a 30mph fine, all assumptions about enforcement criteria are purely that.

Camera or copper? If it’s the latter could he have failed the attitude test, or have been driving in a way the copper didn’t approve of (but is harder to prosecute than a slam dunk speeding ticket)?

 

[Harpo]

Camera or copper? If it’s the latter could he have failed the attitude test, or have been driving in a way the copper didn’t approve of (but is harder to prosecute than a slam dunk speeding ticket)?

Camera

 

[jon0844]

Having a pal who is still very unhappy about a 33mph in a 30mph fine, all assumptions about enforcement criteria are purely that.

The speedo was likely reading 35-36mph then. Surely the pal was aware of going too fast and should just take it on the chin.

 

[PeterC]

Thinking about middle lane hoggers I was once on the southern end of the M1 at night and sat in Lane 1 with cruise control at an indicated 60 to see if that saved any petrol. I managed to pass three cars in lane 2.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Afraid my mother is a culprit of this sort of behaviour.

When driving on a 40 mph section of road at 30 mph, I asked her why she couldn't go at the speed limit (I had a train to catch!) and she said that she didn't feel safe going faster after dark. This descended into an extended argument about 'limit not target' and me saying that driving instructors don't teach that and her saying 'well it wasn't like that when I passed my test 40 years ago' etc etc. Immensely frustrating.

Given that there are countless miles of NSL road where 60mph is too high for safe driving - thousands of miles of country lanes, for example - it clearly is a limit and not a target.

 

[bramling]

Given that there are countless miles of NSL road where 60mph is too high for safe driving - thousands of miles of country lanes, for example - it clearly is a limit and not a target.

Targets don’t have to be achieved, but it’s something to aim for if all other conditions are right.

 

[jon0844]

Given that there are countless miles of NSL road where 60mph is too high for safe driving - thousands of miles of country lanes, for example - it clearly is a limit and not a target.

As has been said many times, you drive at the limit unless there are specific reasons you can't. That might be narrow country lanes, blind junctions/summits, weather and a wealth of other reasons. Being early/in no rush, not feeling comfortable at speed, or finding it hard to see in the dark are NOT reasons to drive slow. If you can't maintain the limit when it's safe to do so, you probably have other issues that suggest driving may not be for you without additional training, or seeking medical advice to see if you need glasses or whatever.

'The speed limit is a limit not a target' is NOT a thing.

 

[Brent Goose]

Yes I will stick in lane 1 to undertake. I cannot bring myself to check and indicate THREE times to get from lane 1 to lane 4.

Occasionally I just stuck the indicator on and traversed from lane one to four and back again. Rarely has any impact.

I understand some justify it by saying they are avoiding the risk involved in changing lanes.

 

[Meerkat]

I understand some justify it by saying they are avoiding the risk involved in changing lanes.

Just creating far more risk by bunching traffic and making lots of others change lanes!
Germanic level lane discipline is something I do when the motorway isn’t busy if I’m concerned about tiredness due to lack of stuff to do. If I’m really bored I try to change lanes without hitting the cats eyes!
A genuine excuse for sitting in the middle lane is when lane 1 is really rutted by the lorries. My car starts to sway slightly up and down the ruts which is most disconcerting as it feels like the steering has got slightly loose.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I reckon we were co-ordinating by similar motives but on the M1 once (southbound from Luton the lane hogging is appalling) three of us simultaneously overtook a car in lane 3 of 4. Still didnt get the message. You then get into an empty bit of motorway and in the mirror you see the culprit and a wall of cars held up to filter round them 'properly'.

I got so fed up with it I started looking who was doing it. I was expecting the stereotypes of the scared female and the old boy in 'I'm doing 70 so no one should need to overtake', but it seemed to be disproportionately middle aged asian men, which I can't explain. I kept keeping note because this seemed odd and it has held across different times and places. One of them came straight out of an on slip into lane 3 of 4 on an empty motorway!

The other odd thing is that lane hoggers work in reference to the central reservation not the left hand side - so lane 2 of 3 and lane 3 of 4. Weird.

One thing that makes me wary of overtaking a lane hogger properly is that I have more than once come back from lane four and only just spotted someone undertaking the lane hogger and going faster than me in lane two. I now figure I can see what is going to go wrong better if I am in lane one or lane two. Perhaps if I drove faster than 70mph I would feel more justified in getting out into lane four. But seeing as I am often starting from lane one its also a faff.

I have noticed that demographic pootling along in lane two or three.

True - I rarely see a lane hogger in the right most lane. Seems to be an edge of carriageway phobia, might fall off !.

I passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago, and I can assure your mother that I was not taught about ‘limit not target’. I was actually taught that going over the speed limit is acceptable if absolutely necessary to avoid a potential unsafe situation (albeit likely to be a rare event).

I remember being reminded by my instructor that a bit of road on my test route was 40mph and I would be advised to distinctly accelerate from 30mph to 40mph.

Occasionally I just stuck the indicator on and traversed from lane one to four and back again. Rarely has any impact.

I understand some justify it by saying they are avoiding the risk involved in changing lanes.

I feel it is a lower risk but not by much.

One issue is my missus (who does not drive) believes changing lanes is dangerous - it is one battle I am not going to bother with.

Years ago I realised that Lane one on the anti clockwise M25 from the A22 to the M26 junction was by far the quietest lane.

Just creating far more risk by bunching traffic and making lots of others change lanes!
Germanic level lane discipline is something I do when the motorway isn’t busy if I’m concerned about tiredness due to lack of stuff to do. If I’m really bored I try to change lanes without hitting the cats eyes!
A genuine excuse for sitting in the middle lane is when lane 1 is really rutted by the lorries. My car starts to sway slightly up and down the ruts which is most disconcerting as it feels like the steering has got slightly loose.

Oh yes the ruts on motorways (tarmac). I remember those after the long hot summer of 1976 (?). My mother hated it as the ruts were further apart than a minis wheel base so you felt one side of the car fall int the rut then the other side. It was easier to drive as far to the left or right in your chosen lane as possible.