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Driving well below the speed limit

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Meerkat

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Complying with the speed limit isn't optional. Some indeed don't make sense, but you still have to comply to them. Perhaps if people did and instead campaigned for ones that don't make sense to be changed there wouldn't be as many silly ones.
There’s no chance of getting them changed, just as ever increasingly marginal safety gains slow the railway down more and more. It all worked (like various English laws) whilst the plod enforced them manually, and just gets silly when you have cameras doing it on a widespread basis.
 

Harpo

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It all worked (like various English laws) whilst the plod enforced them manually, and just gets silly when you have cameras doing it on a widespread basis.
So fine when drivers can get away with speeding but silly when they can’t?
 

Indigo Soup

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There’s no chance of getting them changed, just as ever increasingly marginal safety gains slow the railway down more and more. It all worked (like various English laws) whilst the plod enforced them manually, and just gets silly when you have cameras doing it on a widespread basis.
You mean when there was more chance of getting away with breaking the speed limit?
 

bramling

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Except that it didn't work. Road fatality rates today are a fraction of those in the 20th century. Speed limits and the enforcement thereof are part of the reason for this fall.

Yet the roads round here feel a lot more dangerous than they did in the 20th century. One suspects that a significant reason for any fall in fatality rates is that there has been two decades worth of advancement in the safety features built into vehicles, and perhaps the driving test (for people taking it in this country) is more stringent than it once was.
 

Brent Goose

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The vast majority of the reason for the fall is improved engineering.

Indeed, such as seat belts.

Aside from a dip in 2020 road casualties have largely remained static despite average the mileages driven having actually dropped. Arguably the approach of speed limit reduction backed with camera enforcement has been counter productive.
 

Bald Rick

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Aside from a dip in 2020 road casualties have largely remained static despite average the mileages driven having actually dropped. Arguably the approach of speed limit reduction backed with camera enforcement has been counter productive.

Depends on the time frame you look at.

The numbers killed on our roads halved in the 20 years from 2003. The number is around a third of what it was in 1990.

I am not suggesting that the number is in any way acceptable, but it is much less than it was in relatively recent history. And speed management is unquestionably a contributing factor.
 

Egg Centric

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And speed management is unquestionably a contributing factor.

It's very questionable as it happens - at least on the open road where high speeds would be "useful" if we were allowed to do them. No one's advocating for the right to do 45mph past a primary school, but my goodness it'd be useful for there to be no limit in free flowing traffic on high quality trunk roads / motorways. And even if we need a national speed limit (I'd argue we don't) then 60mph/70mph national speed limits are pathetic, a complete embarrassment.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's very questionable as it happens - at least on the open road where high speeds would be "useful" if we were allowed to do them. No one's advocating for the right to do 45mph past a primary school, but my goodness it'd be useful for there to be no limit in free flowing traffic on high quality trunk roads / motorways. And even if we need a national speed limit (I'd argue we don't) then 60mph/70mph national speed limits are pathetic, a complete embarrassment.

I could see sense in 80mph on motorways with hard shoulders but I would want it strictly enforced. 100mph is not appropriate, and without a limit many would do that or more. The Autobahnen are very dangerous places because of the speed differentials; due to this increasing amounts of the system have the typical European 130km/h limit applied.

I would by contrast like to see single carriageways reduced to 50, again to reduce differentials in head on collisions. That could apply to all vehicles including lorries, removing the need for overtaking. I'd probably go for 40 on singles with no centreline marking.
 

Ashley Hill

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60mph/70mph national speed limits are pathetic, a complete embarrassment
No doubt when these limits were set that was about the fastest the average car could realistically do. Technically has moved on and so has car safety,it’s about time the speed limits on open roads was reviewed.
 

Bletchleyite

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No doubt when these limits were set that was about the fastest the average car could realistically do. Technically has moved on and so has car safety,it’s about time the speed limits on open roads was reviewed.

Downwards, except possibly motorways. It would be nice to continue with the downward trend there, and the best way to reduce casualties on single carriageways now would be to remove the overtaking, cyclists and tractors aside, by basically all vehicles being permitted to and capable of doing 50mph.
 

Sun Chariot

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No doubt when these limits were set that was about the fastest the average car could realistically do. Technically has moved on and so has car safety,it’s about time the speed limits on open roads was reviewed.
Whilst the vehicles' safely features have absolutely evolved and improved, I wonder how (or  if) drivers' average reaction times have changed over the past 60 years.
Increased carriageway speed limits, puts greater emphasis and responsibility onto the drivers. Safety features or not.
 

Ashley Hill

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Increased carriageway speed limits, puts a greater emphasis and responsibility onto the drivers. Safety features or not
There’s a lot to be said for driving to the conditions. If on an open road/motorway in good weather and little traffic should one be penalised for going faster?
 

Egg Centric

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I could see sense in 80mph on motorways with hard shoulders but I would want it strictly enforced. 100mph is not appropriate, and without a limit many would do that or more. The Autobahnen are very dangerous places because of the speed differentials; due to this increasing amounts of the system have the typical European 130km/h limit applied.

I would by contrast like to see single carriageways reduced to 50, again to reduce differentials in head on collisions. That could apply to all vehicles including lorries, removing the need for overtaking. I'd probably go for 40 on singles with no centreline marking.

100mph or more is extremely appropriate! It's nothing in a modern car.

As you point out the main risk comes from speed differentials and I would not in principle be against a "delta" rebuttable presumption of guilt if passing another vehicle at significant differential (say 40mph) in the immediately adjacent lane.

Reducing single carriageways to 50mph is a disgusting idea. Sadly your side will probably win as it's politically popular... just shows why so many shouldn't have a licence.
 

Bletchleyite

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There’s a lot to be said for driving to the conditions. If on an open road/motorway in good weather and little traffic should one be penalised for going faster?

Yes, because you may be competent to go that fast (though most drivers have inflated opinions of their capability) but others may not be competent to deal with you going that fast. If you want to drive really fast, book a track day. The public road is not the place for that.
 

Krokodil

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No doubt when these limits were set that was about the fastest the average car could realistically do. Technically has moved on and so has car safety,it’s about time the speed limits on open roads was reviewed.
I understand that the national speed limit replaced "end of restrictions" when Jaguar were found to be using the M1 as a test track. You could possibly justify 80mph on proper motorways, but speeds on single carriageway roads need to drop.
 

Bletchleyite

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100mph or more is extremely appropriate! It's nothing in a modern car.

It absolutely is not, primarily because of the consequences of a collision, but also because others on the road may not have the skill or reactions to deal with you going that fast. You might not even do anything wrong - it could be a totally unexpected mechanical failure caused by a totally unforeseeable manufacturing defect.

As you point out the main risk comes from speed differentials and I would not in principle be against a "delta" rebuttable presumption of guilt if passing another vehicle at significant differential (say 40mph) in the immediately adjacent lane.

Presumption of guilt is neither here nor there. We want people to stop dying on roads, not to decide who to blame when they do.

Reducing single carriageways to 50mph is a disgusting idea. Sadly your side will probably win as it's politically popular...

Many rural Councils are already doing it progressively with signage anyway. Doing it nationally would save them the cost, allowing it to be spent on other road safety matters or even public transport subsidy.

just shows why so many shouldn't have a licence.

It would be possible to have a system whereby the driving test was much, much more comprehansive and difficult and would include high level medical tests such as reactions tests, thus only allowing people on the road capable of driving at the kind of speeds you would like to see, as well as prohibiting cycling and bringing in jaywalking laws. However the roads are for safe transport for all, not for a personal race track for people who are (or think they are) capable of driving at very high speed, not to mention the environmental issue of the much higher energy consumption at high speeds.

Therefore, while I'd agree there are some who shouldn't be on the road at all, I would say this opinion is well wide of the mark, and you should simply book a track day (or make a visit to the Nuerburgring Nordschleife) when you want to drive at high speeds, and leave the rest of us to use the roads safely to reach our destinations, which is their purpose.

They should lose their licences and take the bus.

I think people who think it's appropriate to drive as fast as you are suggesting are the ones who should lose their licence and take the bus, as with the exception of professional racing drivers they almost universally have an elevated view of their own driving capability - and that arrogance is one of the most dangerous things that can be on the road. Fortunately, with the increased prevalence of enforcement, that's more likely than what you would like to see, unless they're very good at spotting yellow boxes.

I understand that the national speed limit replaced "end of restrictions" when Jaguar were found to be using the M1 as a test track. You could possibly justify 80mph on proper motorways, but speeds on single carriageway roads need to drop.

Totally agree.

How about:
Motorway with hard shoulder: 80mph, but 70mph in case of rain or fog
Motorway without hard shoulder or other dual carriageway: 70mph (or possibly 60, I could be sold on that, with signing up for specific motorway style dual carriageways like the North Wales Expressway).
Single carriageway: 50
Single carriageway without marked centreline: 40
Urban: 30 or 20, I struggle to decide which should be default to be honest. But too much signing up and down is unhelpful as it is distracting, so better to pick one of those and stick to it.

Aside from legally mandated limiters these limits would apply to all vehicles, so there would no longer be bus/van/lorry differentials, thus minimising overtaking on single carriageways which is incredibly dangerous.

The 10 suggestion is probably not sensible in many places, but I could see a sense in having Dutch style "Woonort"/"Auto te gast" zones where cyclists and pedestrians have absolute priority and the car is a guest and needs to drive at the lowest practical speed. In effect the whole thing is a big zebra crossing - kids can run out and drivers must stop, for example. This would only sensibly be within residential cul de sacs and the likes.
 
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Egg Centric

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Have you ever driven at 100mph for a sustained period of time in a suitable vehicle? You don't need racecar driver like reactions and nor do drivers near you. Or anything close. It's just as relaxing as 70mph if the conditions are appropriate.

Anything relying on "reactions" as opposed to anticipation is far too fast...
 

Sun Chariot

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Have you ever driven at 100mph for a sustained period of time in a suitable vehicle? You don't need racecar driver like reactions and nor do drivers near you. Or anything close. It's just as relaxing as 70mph if the conditions are appropriate.

Anything relying on "reactions" as opposed to anticipation is far too fast...
Until your tyre suddenly blows out, or a vehicle in an adjacent lane kicks up a stone which cracks your windscreen.
Suddenly, 100mph feels a lot of speed, whilst you're trying to avoid hitting the central reservation due to your skidding car or your reduced visibility.

Your final point is spot on though
 
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Bletchleyite

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Have you ever driven at 100mph for a sustained period of time in a suitable vehicle?

No, because I don't think that speed is appropriate on a public road for the reasons I have outlined, certainly not a UK one. (Interestingly 80 on a dead straight French or Italian motorway with the long road markings feels much more pedestrian - but the Autobahnen would by and large barely make UK standards for a 70mph dual carriageway, let alone a motorway, and are thus utterly and abjectly terrifying with typical 60+mph speed differentials between lorries and BMWs on a two lane road).

My experience of Autobahnen is that they're a bit like the A1 with often narrow lanes, junctions with very short ramps and lots of curves and hills - and I think the 60 limits on those sections of the A1 are totally justified, let alone having BMWs going along at twice that.

Anything relying on "reactions" as opposed to anticipation is far too fast...

This is a solid principle of any driving, but based on the actions of people I see driving at such speeds in the few places you can still get away with them (e.g. the M40) it is typically done without consideration and due regard for others and is thus a rather selfish act. It might be that you are a trained and experienced racing or emergency services driver, but if not I fear you may be overstating your skill and ability to deal with emergencies that may occur or the actions of other drivers.
 

Peter Sarf

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I understand that the national speed limit replaced "end of restrictions" when Jaguar were found to be using the M1 as a test track. You could possibly justify 80mph on proper motorways, but speeds on single carriageway roads need to drop.
And Dunlop were testing tubeless tyres (while driving jaguars) - blame my grandfather.
They should lose their licences and take the bus.
Ouch. Risk of being selfish there. I think we have to accept that road use is not a luxury that is just for those who feel they can exploit its full potential. I always feel I should drive allowing for other peoples ability. I also bear in mind how my passengers feel (and I do get complements). I am not advocating a free for all for all abilities and do believe driving standards should be improved. Certainly by weeding out those with dubious driving qualifications. But I think removing the use of roads from those less able is at risk of being rather discriminatory.

For example lets suppose we eliminate all people who cannot drive on motorways at 90mph or refuse to. I am guessing maybe 50% of road users. How much extra road fund licence would the surviving motorists be prepared to pay for all the lovely freedom they now have ?.

We have become too dependent on car use to let it become a luxury for the "entitled".
 

Krokodil

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Reducing single carriageways to 50mph is a disgusting idea.
"Disgusting"? Really? What an odd word to choose in that context.

Yes, because you may be competent to go that fast (though most drivers have inflated opinions of their capability)
There's an interview somewhere with a former traffic officer. Might have been with former Stig Ben Collins but I can't find it. The officer made the point that while Collins is an experienced racing driver, most people have no idea of how to drive fast safely.
 

Peter Sarf

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Why is it people feel the roads do not have to be anywhere near as safe as the railways ?.

OK I accept it is easier to make the railways safer than roads but the attitude to safety seems miles apart comparing the two modes.
 

Egg Centric

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This is a solid principle of any driving, but based on the actions of people I see driving at such speeds in the few places you can still get away with them (e.g. the M40) it is typically done without consideration and due regard for others and is thus a rather selfish act. It might be that you are a trained and experienced racing or emergency services driver, but if not I fear you may be overstating your skill and ability to deal with emergencies that may occur or the actions of other drivers.

Bear in mind that the people you see and notice doing those speeds are going to be the inconsiderate ones, as the safe ones are going to be doing it appropriately.

Racing driving has very little to do with high speed road driving and I have been careful not to say I am doing high speeds in the UK.

If you're not prepared to do high speed on an autobahn I would encourage being a passenger with someone you trust who is. You will quickly realise there's nothing to make a fuss about.
 

Krokodil

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Or a pigeon at 70mph. I hit one once. It cobwebbed my windscreen such that I couldn't see anything at all, I had to open the window and stick my head out to safely steer to the nearest layby.
Interesting, I wonder what the different standards are for car and train windscreens. Plenty of pheasants and pigeons get hit by trains and I particularly remember a 175 secondman's windscreen with an angel-like silhouette in blood so it had clearly taken a straight hit from a bird.
 

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