Dubious harvesting from Twitter by journalists

[HowardGWR]

This is an example.

http://www.itv.com/news/central/2016-01-20/your-reaction-to-birmingham-to-london-train-disruption/?

Your reaction to Birmingham to London train disruption
People across the Midlands have taken to social media to share their frustration over major disruption to train services between Birmingham New Street and London Euston this morning.

Usually a stock art photo is used and of course no control over whether quoted tweets are relevant or even true or appropriate.

I do wonder whether this service is working against the public's view of the railway. In my example, the fault lay with NR but the punter blames the TOC.

 

[PHILIPE]

The TOC is always first in the firing line for any passenger complaints, especially as they are the first point of contact. I feel sorry they have to carry the can from the public viewpoint when Network Rail and DFT. especially when the blame lies with those bodies, can hide in the background. Unfortunately, it's the way the privatized system works

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I think that it may also be the case sometimes that the TOC won't be firm in laying out where the blame lies because they don't want to be seen to be "passing the buck" even though they're right?

 

[miami]

I think that it may also be the case sometimes that the TOC won't be firm in laying out where the blame lies because they don't want to be seen to be "passing the buck" even though they're right?

I have as much sympathy with London midland blaming network tail as I do fr tesco blaming their suppliers of the shelves are empty, or if I buy a broken TV from them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I feel sorry they have to carry the can from the public viewpoint when Network Rail

Network Rail compensate them massively, precious little of which actually reaches the passengers who have actually been inconvenienced, so I'm sure the directors will somehow manage to rest their weary heads tonight.

If a London Midland train is late or cancelled south of the disruption then that is London Midland's fault. What London Midland should say is sorry, but instead they blame everyone else for their mistakes.

 

[lejog]

The TOC is always first in the firing line for any passenger complaints, especially as they are the first point of contact. I feel sorry they have to carry the can from the public viewpoint when Network Rail and DFT. especially when the blame lies with those bodies, can hide in the background. Unfortunately, it's the way the privatized system works

Its the way that far more than the rail system works, its part and parcel of consumer law. Passengers hand over their money to the TOC (not Network Rail), there is then a legal contract between passengers and the ToC, not one with Network Rail. It is part of the TOC's job to manage Network Rail on behalf of the passenger, not to make excuses when they fail.

The law is perfectly clear, if you take money from a member of the public in exchange for goods or services, then you are responsible for delivering those goods/services. If a supplier/subcontractor has problems, its up to you to sort them out.

 

[plymothian]

On the other hand you could say NR isn't a subcontractor for TOCs, but the other way around, where TOCs are subcontracted by NR to run the trains and stations on their infrastructure and being charged for the privilege of doing so.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think lejog is legally correct - but that was not why I started this thread.

Before Twitter, much of this reporting of late and cancelled trains would be only known to a few. Now, every time a TOC twitterer or one of their pax puts something on the site, the lazy journalists (tautology perhaps) just plonk it on their website as a story.

Over time this builds up to a very poor image and I would be interested to know if TOCs have some misgivings.

To contrast the road reports, yes, the fact that there is a queue due to a collision or roadworks is reported, but there is no accompanying moaning twitter to HE, or the County Council, about how badly they run the roads, as is the case with rail twittering.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To contrast the road reports, yes, the fact that there is a queue due to a collision or roadworks is reported, but there is no accompanying moaning twitter to HE, or the County Council, about how badly they run the roads, as is the case with rail twittering.

I disagree. Roadworks are repeatedly complained about on Twitter, and elsewhere, to the extent that Boris Johnson considered regulating roadworks important enough to make a political campaign point.

Where people know that the issue is outside the industry's control (e.g. people under trains) they are generally tolerant, even on Twitter. Witness how many complainers go "oh, hope everyone is OK" when they're told a delay is due to a fatality.

What people won't tolerate is industry failings being presented as "just one of those things". If the overhead wires come down or the signals fail or a train breaks down then that is an industry failing, and they will complain at the face of that industry, i.e. the TOC they've just handed a huge stack of notes to. And rightly so.

 

[PHILIPE]

Although agreed that somebody paying a fare has entered into a contract with the TOC, I think more should be done to make the public aware that many things that go wrong are out of the control of the TOC but that they get the blame unfairly. TOCs are not going to attempt to do much about the situation as they are only working to a DFT spec.

 

[marks87]

I have as much sympathy with London midland blaming network tail as I do fr tesco blaming their suppliers of the shelves are empty, or if I buy a broken TV from them.

Those things aren't comparable at all.

If Network Rail's infrastructure suddenly breaks, there's not much London Midland can do about it. They can't decide to switch to someone else's rails.

Whereas Tesco should first of all never get into a position where shelves are empty; if suppliers let them down, they can source new ones. Which, given their size, will be possible at relatively short notice. So at no point should they blame their suppliers because there's something they can do to fix it.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the TV analogy. Tesco will usually replace or refund faulty goods without much fuss.

 

[lejog]

Although agreed that somebody paying a fare has entered into a contract with the TOC, I think more should be done to make the public aware that many things that go wrong are out of the control of the TOC but that they get the blame unfairly. TOCs are not going to attempt to do much about the situation as they are only working to a DFT spec.

Complete nonsense, the TOCs bid for the franchises knowing full well that they are taking the passenger's money and are responsible to passengers. Why should passengers be interested in the structure of the rail industry? - they are not trainspotters. It would be plain lily livered incompetent management by the TOCs to start blaming Network Rail or the DfT. They shouldn't be bidding for franchises if they have such slopey shoulders.

 

[yorkie]

Those things aren't comparable at all.....

True. A better comparison (not that it's helpful really) would be falsely blaming a taxi company or a bus company for a delay caused by an unplanned roadblock.

At least the TOC doesn't charge its customers extra to be delayed and, for lengthy delays, will compensate.

 

[lejog]

Those things aren't comparable at all.

If Network Rail's infrastructure suddenly breaks, there's not much London Midland can do about it. They can't decide to switch to someone else's rails.

Whereas Tesco should first of all never get into a position where shelves are empty; if suppliers let them down, they can source new ones. Which, given their size, will be possible at relatively short notice. So at no point should they blame their suppliers because there's something they can do to fix it.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the TV analogy. Tesco will usually replace or refund faulty goods without much fuss.

I don't like using analogies, but the main difference in this case is that Network Rail is a monopoly supplier, where Tesco in some cases have a choice of suppliers (but not in all cases, they can only buy Kellogs Corn Flakes from Kellogs). Yes managing monopoly suppliers is a more difficult management job than if you have a choice of suppliers, but it doesn't alter the fact that it is still managements job to do this. TOCs are far from alone in having to manage monopoly suppliers, I can assure you. If they don't like this, then they shouldn't be bidding for franchises.

 

[EM2]

I disagree. Roadworks are repeatedly complained about on Twitter, and elsewhere, to the extent that Boris Johnson considered regulating roadworks important enough to make a political campaign point.

Not so long ago, there was chaos throughout East London when resurfacing work on the A12 overran by about three hours.
The day after, Network Rail engineering work at Wivelsfield overran by an hour.
A comparison of tweets mentioning the two showed that there were about four times as many tweets complaining about the rail issue than the road one.

When the Hammersmith Flyover and the Forth Road Bridge were closed for extended periods because (as was freely admitted) of faults that had come to light because of poor maintenance, Twitter was rather quiet on the subject. If Network Rail had closed a bridge (any bridge) because of their poor maintenance, there would be a public outcry and possibly a massive fine.

EDIT - here's an example. Evening Standard story about the A12 issue mentioned - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ic-as-engineering-work-overruns-10400713.html No comments on the article.
Eastern Daily Press article on overrunning engineering works between Norwich & Liverpool Street, resulting in delays of forty minutes to trains - http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/over_ru...norwich_and_london_liverpool_street_1_4346615 Ten comments on the article.

 

[PHILIPE]

Complete nonsense, the TOCs bid for the franchises knowing full well that they are taking the passenger's money and are responsible to passengers. Why should passengers be interested in the structure of the rail industry? - they are not trainspotters. It would be plain lily livered incompetent management by the TOCs to start blaming Network Rail or the DfT. They shouldn't be bidding for franchises if they have such slopey shoulders.

Thank you for the nonsense bit. Have you no respect for anybody elses opinion bar your own whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A comparison of tweets mentioning the two showed that there were about four times as many tweets complaining about the rail issue than the road one.

That's to be expected, though.

Firstly, people driving cars can't shouldn't be taking to Twitter, whereas people stuck on a platform at Wivelsfield have plenty of time to take the smartphone out and have a whine.

Also, there's a much more public face on the railways of who to whinge to: the TOC you've just handed a huge stack of cash to, which gives you a handy Twitter handle and hashtag to use.

Who do you tweet at with road complaints? The council? The police? The PTE? The HGV company whose lorry has just overturned on the Central Motorway because of incompetent driving? There are plenty of Twitter complaints this morning for the last reason, but there's no simple hashtag so there's no easy way of collating tweets.

I'd agree TOCs do get flack when it isn't their fault, but that's a simple consequence of the TOC being the company you hand the cash over to. The railway overall does deserve most of the flack it gets as most incidents are the fault of the industry. And I'd consider it the height of bad customer service to for a TOC to blame Network Rail for everything; blaming everyone else for their own incompetence is London Midland's speciality though.

 

[PHILIPE]

It riles me, though, that when I look at ATW Twitter and see numerous tweets, sometimes abusive and riddled with bad language, complaining about overcrowding due to insufficient stock and saying use your profits to buy more carriages. These are day and in day out. All ATW can do is to give what are virtually standard replies, i.e. all our available trains are out working and that stock provision is the responsibility of the Government (DFT) but there may be more stock available in the future when electrification kicks in. Jam tomorrow, but several years away yet when stock is needed NOW. I know that ATW won't do anything if it's not in the Franchise spec and, for any improvements rely on funding from the Welsh Government.
This post is to highlight the situation we are discussing with the TOCS getting the blame, but at the same time agreeing that is to whom passengers are paying their fares. Many tweeters say that they shouldn't have to pay such high fares for having to stand, or even get on the train, for long distances.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It riles me, though, that when I look at ATW Twitter and see numerous tweets, sometimes abusive and riddled with bad language, complaining about overcrowding due to insufficient stock and saying use your profits to buy more carriages.

I'm sorry but blaming DafT or the Welsh Assembly is, quite frankly, a cop-out.

Arriva Trains Wales could hire in additional loco-hauled stock for the busiest peak trains- previous operators did, e.g. the 37s to Rhymney back in the 90s- but they choose not to because they make the same revenue regardless of whether everyone is squashed in like sardines or not.

I'd say the complaints are legitimate: Arriva make huge profits, and they could invest them in passenger comfort, they don't need DafT permission to do so. The fact is that they don't, because directors' bonuses.

You see the same up here. Northern claim they "can't" get extra carriages, yet what they actually mean is that they won't, because that would cost Serco money. It's that type of response that gets people's backs up, because we know it is bull.

 

[HowardGWR]

What I find bad journalism is that the tweets are just copied over as though they were an official report on the situation. As a tweeting complainer, one has unprecedented power, as the journos quote them as though they were judge and jury over any incident. Mostly, they will be just displaying their ignorance and / or selfish attitudes.

here's an example.
http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk/Commuter-chaos-Kent-morning/story-28577482-detail/story.html?

Laura Reynolds (@scribbling_lau) tweeted: "Chaos at #Tonbridge this morning @Se_Railway. Delays, no info about which train is coming in next, staff couldn't care less #southeastern"

@joe606 tweeted: "The freight train that just passed through #sevenoaks had 43 carriages! #southeastern customers are lucky to get six."

Southeastern said there had been train faults this morning and tweeted: "Apologies for these delays."

So we are to assume that Laura is correct about staff are we? Joe thinks freight trains have carriages.

 

[Greenback]

What I find bad journalism is that the tweets are just copied over as though they were an official report on the situation. As a tweeting complainer, one has unprecedented power, as the journos quote them as though they were judge and jury over any incident. Mostly, they will be just displaying their ignorance and / or selfish attitudes.

here's an example.
http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk/Commuter-chaos-Kent-morning/story-28577482-detail/story.html?



So we are to assume that Laura is correct about staff are we? Joe thinks freight trains have carriages.

I know exactly what you mean and it's one of my pet hates. Journalists simply copy tweets without any comment, giving the impression that the opinions expressed in them have some kind of value, when often they do not.

It's a bit like going out into the street in the old days and asking random passers by what they thought. I know this did used to happen, but at least it was often presented as a light hearted 'What the people think' kind of occasional feature.

Still, it's a way to fill up pages and web space. I suppose anyone can copy and paste, so they don't even have to employ a card carrying journalist either.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A comparison of tweets mentioning the two showed that there were about four times as many tweets complaining about the rail issue than the road one.

When the Hammersmith Flyover and the Forth Road Bridge were closed for extended periods because (as was freely admitted) of faults that had come to light because of poor maintenance, Twitter was rather quiet on the subject. If Network Rail had closed a bridge (any bridge) because of their poor maintenance, there would be a public outcry and possibly a massive fine.

Of course the main reason for that is when driving then you aren't able to (safely) use Twitter. When travelling by train then you can. And if you are delayed then you have more than ample free time to tweet to your hearts content!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a bit like going out into the street in the old days and asking random passers by what they thought. I know this did used to happen, but at least it was often presented as a light hearted 'What the people think' kind of occasional feature.

That's been a staple of local TV news since at least the 80s, a succession of angry middle aged women yelling EEEEH IT'S DESGUSTEN.

It was enough of a thing for Chris Morris to have Speak Your Brains on The Day Today

Of course the real journalists are too busy getting featured in Angry People in Local Newspapers

 

[EM2]

Of course the main reason for that is when driving then you aren't able to (safely) use Twitter. When travelling by train then you can. And if you are delayed then you have more than ample free time to tweet to your hearts content!

There's nothing to stop people tweeting when they get out of the car though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who do you tweet at with road complaints? The council? The police? The PTE? The HGV company whose lorry has just overturned on the Central Motorway because of incompetent driving? There are plenty of Twitter complaints this morning for the last reason, but there's no simple hashtag so there's no easy way of collating tweets.

Whoever is in charge. With the Hammersmith Flyover, it was TfL. With the Forth Road Bridge, it was Transport Scotland.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's nothing to stop people tweeting when they get out of the car though.

At which point the delay has already been and gone and the person is at their destination (unless it is so bad they are taking a break). I am willing to bet most rail related twitter rants are "heat of the moment" tweets where if the person could not tweet at the time then they wouldn't bother.

(This is coming from someone who you could say is a serial complainer on Twitter, though in my defense most of the time my tweets are more just trying to get actual information when station / train staff aren't able to help - indeed sometimes I get more info from Twitter quicker than staff get the info through official means!).

 

[miami]

I know exactly what you mean and it's one of my pet hates. Journalists simply copy tweets without any comment, giving the impression that the opinions expressed in them have some kind of value, when often they do not.

It's a bit like going out into the street in the old days and asking random passers by what they thought. I know this did used to happen, but at least it was often presented as a light hearted 'What the people think' kind of occasional feature.

Still, it's a way to fill up pages and web space. I suppose anyone can copy and paste, so they don't even have to employ a card carrying journalist either.

Sadly journalism isn't quite what it used to be. A journalist in a paper in the 60s could spend days working on a story for page 12. Nowadays they have minutes. Reading Flat Earth News was depressing.

 

[HowardGWR]

Here we go again. This morning this type of article littered the media, all quoting pax on Twitter for copy with the same mistaken moan (it was a NR issue).
http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/london-transport/11773.article?

"Sh*t service": Commuters furious after 20 Southeastern trains to London cancelled

 

[mirodo]

Sadly journalism isn't quite what it used to be. A journalist in a paper in the 60s could spend days working on a story for page 12. Nowadays they have minutes. Reading Flat Earth News was depressing.

Possibly due to funding cutbacks, the emphasis these days seems to be on sourcing as much content as possible from the genaral public, under the guise of "having your say". During the Boxing Day flooding in the north of England, the local paper where my parents live were soliciting photographic contributions from local residents, rather than send out a photographer of their own. A number of photos I took and submitted to them were used (uncredited, of course!) on their website, and one was used for a full front page photo of the next print edition.

 

[Greenback]

It's bound to be all about money, almost everything is! I can't remember the last time I bought a local paper, if I'm representative of the general trend local rags must be struggling!

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's bound to be all about money, almost everything is! I can't remember the last time I bought a local paper, if I'm representative of the general trend local rags must be struggling!

Thats right. I do not think I have bought a paper for over fifteen years. But plenty of people like reading rubbish - some even believe it.

As a customer my first port of call, in the case of a complaint, is with the supplier I have paid. I reckon in the case of the roads most people cannot remember who they paid road tax to - actually I wonder if there is a twitter for them ?.

I remember when I bought a pair of trainers from Sports Direct. The laces broke quite quickly so I went back to the shop. The staff told me to take it up with the maker of the shoes. The shop seemed to accept that the shoes were faulty but did not accept it was their responsibility to deal with it. So I do not buy stuff from Sports Direct any more and I make sure I tell people about it.

Big difference with the railways is that Unlike Tescos there is no alternative for most travellers. I think most TOCs are not too bad (not as bad as Sports Direct) but the service is still a problem. I think the pressure the rail network is under is beginning to show. The TOCs are quite reasonable to blame whatever is the true reason but it is up to the TOC to apologise/compensate and then go to their supplier and complain.

For me the comparison is between rail and coach. From London to Cardiff is a lot cheaper by coach. I have had some bad journeys by coach due to road congestion but then I could buy a more expensive train ticket and suffer delays or end up in a coach anyway. The worst part is watching people failing to find the correct coach at Victoria Coach station ! - there's nothing like good information. I admit that, if there are three of us travelling, then my car is cheaper !.