'Due to emergency services dealing with an incident'

[ComUtoR]

That is dreadful. Nobody at ATW is qualified to comment publicly on the mental health of someone.

So if the local mental health institute had identified the person on the track as an escaped patient and that the person is indeed deranged. Then the communications officer who deals with public relations etc relays the information to the relevant parties and they pass on this information to the public thus giving out specific and totally accurate information. They are still in the wrong ?

Because my local TOC had had incidents such as this as we have Bethlem on our doorstep.

What if ATW had fully qualified mental health professionals who have been employed specifically to deal with situations such as this are they still in the wrong ?

 

[TheEdge]

I think the real issue here is not the level of detail given out but rather that some of the terminology used in announcements sounds to me like willful obfuscation. An "operating incident" always sounds like "none of your business" - really very irritating and condescending.

But, as a passenger, it is none of your business. It doesn't matter if its a derailment, SPAD, TPWS activation, AWS activation, DSD activation or any of the other things that can be called an operating incident. How does "train delayed due to a TPWS activation" give you as a passenger any more information than "...due to an operating incident"? It's your business to know how long a delay might be but not the absolute route cause of it.

Yesterday I had a train I was working cancelled part way through so we could recover a failed unit and return it to a depot. The announcement I made was "Unfortunately this train will be terminated at x due to a train failure at x. I apologise for this, your next service to y will be the 1813 service on platform 3" It was vague but I got absolutely no complaints or issues from any passengers whatsoever. But you would seem to think I should have announced "Unfortunately this train will be terminated at x. This is because another train has failed with a significant fuel leak and this train is needed to return that train to a maintenance depot. I apologise for this, your next service to y will be the 1813 service on platform 3"

To me all the full detail announcement just adds a whole lot of surplus and pointless information yet adds absolutely nothing of substance or use.

As many have pointed out knowing the "details" of an incident give you nothing useful. The ubiquitous "signalling failure". If that refers to a track circuit failure it could be a 5 minute job once NR are on site to remove a bit of swarf causing a short or hours trying to isolate the issue. It really doesn't give the passenger any useful information.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

But, as a passenger, it is none of your business. It doesn't matter if its a derailment, SPAD, TPWS activation, AWS activation, DSD activation or any of the other things that can be called an operating incident. How does "train delayed due to a TPWS activation" give you as a passenger any more information than "...due to an operating incident"? It's your business to know how long a delay might be but not the absolute route cause of it.

Yesterday I had a train I was working cancelled part way through so we could recover a failed unit and return it to a depot. The announcement I made was "Unfortunately this train will be terminated at x due to a train failure at x. I apologise for this, your next service to y will be the 1813 service on platform 3" It was vague but I got absolutely no complaints or issues from any passengers whatsoever. But you would seem to think I should have announced "Unfortunately this train will be terminated at x. This is because another train has failed with a significant fuel leak and this train is needed to return that train to a maintenance depot. I apologise for this, your next service to y will be the 1813 service on platform 3"

To me all the full detail announcement just adds a whole lot of surplus and pointless information yet adds absolutely nothing of substance or use.

As many have pointed out knowing the "details" of an incident give you nothing useful. The ubiquitous "signalling failure". If that refers to a track circuit failure it could be a 5 minute job once NR are on site to remove a bit of swarf causing a short or hours trying to isolate the issue. It really doesn't give the passenger any useful information.

I think you've missed my point somewhat... I did say at the start of the post that it wasn't about the detail (so no, I don't need to know it was a TPS failure or whatever) but the terminology. Your first example sounds fine to me: "a train failed at X" at least provides some useful context and doesn't condescend. An "operating incident" however is condescending industry jargon, of little or no use.

Just to argue a little though, "as a passenger, it is none if your business" rankles. Your passenger is a customer. It is absolutely our business why the advertised service cannot be provided.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think you've missed my point somewhat... I did say at the start of the post that it wasn't about the detail (so no, I don't need to know it was a TPS failure or whatever) but the terminology. Your first example sounds fine to me: "a train failed at X" at least provides some useful context and doesn't condescend. An "operating incident" however is condescending industry jargon, of little or no use.

Just to argue a little though, "as a passenger, it is none if your business" rankles. Your passenger is a customer. It is absolutely our business why the advertised service cannot be provided.

I'm a little perplexed, can you explain how operating incident is condescending? I think I get the idea but interested to know your feelings towards that being used as a reason for a delay.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just to argue a little though, "as a passenger, it is none if your business" rankles. Your passenger is a customer. It is absolutely our business why the advertised service cannot be provided.

Why is it your business?
The "operating incident" may well be a suicide but it could just as well be a signal failure or a train fault. The only fact that you need to know is that the matter is being dealt with; end of!!

 

[ComUtoR]

An "operating incident" however is condescending industry jargon, of little or no use.

The more technical and detailed an announcement is made the more jargon is being used. When the jargon is removed then we are accused of being too vague.

I find that "operating incident" is pretty much spot on because it suggests to me that the problem is railway based.

"signal failure"
"passenger taken ill"
"congestion"
"waiting member of train crew"
"no member of train crew being available"
"points failure"
"trespasser on the line"


Pretty much all standard announcements that are made on a regular basis. All are generic and all encompassing. None I find condescending or patronizing in any way.

I welcome any suggestions your are willing to make. Eg. What announcement would you make if you are being delayed due to another train fouling a set of trailing points at a junction due to an unsolicited brake application ?

 

[TheEdge]

Just to argue a little though, "as a passenger, it is none if your business" rankles. Your passenger is a customer. It is absolutely our business why the advertised service cannot be provided.

Yea, I agree. Doesn't mean you need to know any intricacies of an incident that's occurred. You are not a MOM or a rolling stock technician, a driver, a guard or a signalman. "Operating incident" will do you just fine, your service cannot be provided due to an operating incident, there you go.

So what do you want? You don't want operating incident, its too vague/condescending but as you say you don't need to know the details. I can't see a stage between them, its either vague or detailed.

 

[Ianigsy]

The more generic the reason given, the more likely it is that some people will begin to suspect that they aren't being told the whole truth.

Within the last month I've also completed a travel insurance claim form which required confirmation of (in the insurance company's words) "the exact cause and duration of the delay", which suggests to me that they wouldn't be satisfied with "an operating incident". Not least because having worked in the industry myself, they're probably keen to find out whether there's an opportunity to pursue a recovery from a third party.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

If I went to the local Spar, and there were no Creme Eggs, should I really be entitled to a full and frank explanation as to why there are no Creme Eggs, why they failed to provide enough Creme Eggs to the point where my own personal demand was met, or just when they expect to get more Creme Eggs in?

Because people who use trains are extremely entitled... I'm surprised they're not screaming for the autopsy pictures.

 

[HH]

I'm rather against this dumbing down of language, which smacks of political correctness and hiding behind obfuscation. However if there were clear research that it would prevent additional suicides I'd reluctantly support it in this instance (although I'm not aware of any such research).

If you are going to hide behind such generic terms though you need to make people aware of what they should expect. If it's a suicide on my line (GEML), I've never known it take much less than 2 hours and generally it doesn't take too much more either. You can always update information later, but big incidents are not as random as some are trying to make out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I went to the local Spar, and there were no Creme Eggs, should I really be entitled to a full and frank explanation as to why there are no Creme Eggs, why they failed to provide enough Creme Eggs to the point where my own personal demand was met, or just when they expect to get more Creme Eggs in?

Because people who use trains are extremely entitled... I'm surprised they're not screaming for the autopsy pictures.

But it might be useful to know if it's because it's a national shortage of Creme Eggs (in which case I might have a Crunchie instead) or it's just that they've had a run on them (in which case I might go to the shop in the next village). The railway is rather more complicated than that.

I always like to be treated like an adult, and that includes sharing with me, whether pleasant or not, the reason for problems having occurred.

 

[island]

Yeah,

Simples, Case closed, 'nuff said etc - all signs that someone hasn't got a very strong argument but doesn't wish to allow anyone to disagree.

I'm so glad it wasn't just me that thought that

You forgot "end of"

When you stand at the edge of the platform on those black dog days. Just maybe, having someone to talk to, may help. Pick up the phone.

http://www.samaritans.org/
08457 90 90 90

Not wanting to devalue their work or be glib in any way, but with most mobile networks charging north of 30p a minute for that call, I'm hoping that person on the platform isn't short of credit.

 

[tony_mac]

I'm rather against this dumbing down of language, which smacks of political correctness and hiding behind obfuscation. However if there were clear research that it would prevent additional suicides I'd reluctantly support it in this instance (although I'm not aware of any such research).

For an overview see Annex 1 of the WHO's media resource.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource_media.pdf

For an example, the image shows the numbers of suicides in Austria before and after the introduction of media guidelines. The full analysis is in the paper, but it is certainly statistically significant (In Austria, the estimate is a reduction of 81 per year).

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't see how creme eggs are relevant, however If I bought a voucher which entitled me to one creme egg, then when I got to the counter having already paid and was told there were no creme eggs available right now due to operational reasons I would indeed be demanding a better explanation

 

[DaleCooper]

If I bought a voucher which entitled me to one creme egg, then when I got to the counter having already paid and was told there were no creme eggs available right now due to operational reasons I would indeed be demanding a better explanation

I think the creme egg analogy has been stretched to breaking point, let's get back on topic.

 

[TheEdge]

You can always update information later, but big incidents are not as random as some are trying to make out.

They really are. A fatal can take sometimes as little as 60-90 minutes to get all on the move again but then there was a recent one up on the Cambridge line where it took something like 5 or so hours to get the unit moved because of the damage caused. Like I said higher up the ubiquitous track circuit failure can be a job done in minutes when its a matter of a short caused by swarf or hours and hours if S&T are down chasing modules and parts. No two incidents are the same.

I don't understand the need to know attitude. Knowing any details isn't going to improve a situation and is likely to add more questions, could even make it worse. Your train at 11am is cancelled. Would you like it to be due to a train fault or due to a headlight failure? Both are as factual and result in the same information to you but one is going to get the standard moan and move on. The other could open all hell upon the hapless member of staff who says it.

Its a balancing act. Too little information or too much surplus.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't understand the need to know attitude. Knowing any details isn't going to improve a situation and is likely to add more questions

Knowing details does a number of things. Firstly, it reassures passengers that the cause is known, and that something constructive is being done about the problem, even if they don't understand the details. (And there are occasional times when blind confidence that the staff are all working together to solve the problem is misplaced).

Secondly, it givens the passengers some idea, based on their past experience, about the extent of the likely delay. I would be happy, on this point, to get an estimated delay, based on the staff's awareness of past similar incidents, but this rarely happens. (e.g.; 'it could be 5 minutes, it could be hours if they need to go for parts' would be better than nothing.)

I once had a very good description from a train manager - that the cables had been stolen, and as there were no working signals we would have to proceed at walking pace so we could stop in time if there was something on the line. It told us why we were going slowly, how late we would be, and also that the fault lay outside the railway's control. Of course, in this case, the train manager had lots of spare time to make the announcement!

On another train, which was also going slowly, no announcement was made. I asked the guard, who said we were behind the delayed stopper. From that information, I could work out how roughly late we were going to be, and was reassured that there wasn't a more serious problem.

Finally, implying 'we know the cause of the problem, but we're deliberately not telling you because you don't need to know' does introduce unnecessary conflict. I could explain why this is, but you don't have the psychological background to understand it.

 

[jon0844]

I think the creme egg analogy has been stretched to breaking point, let's get back on topic.

Since they changed the recipe, I don't even count them as true creme eggs anymore. Oh, wait. We're supposed to get back on topic.

 

[HH]

They really are. A fatal can take sometimes as little as 60-90 minutes to get all on the move again but then there was a recent one up on the Cambridge line where it took something like 5 or so hours to get the unit moved because of the damage caused.

60 minutes is an undreamed of speed. 90 minutes is as good as I've ever seen it. Mostly it's 120-150 minutes delay, even if things get moving again a bit sooner. An announcement that things won't get moving again for over an hour, and more probably two, would be more helpful than simply "things aren't moving at present because of an operating incident". This could be updated as further news came in, but at least people know the scale of the problem.

 

[ComUtoR]

60 minutes is an undreamed of speed.

I remember being delayed into a station for a suicide. We were 2 signals out. After announcing the delay and certainly expecting a rather long wait. We entered the platform 10 minutes later.

 

[HH]

I remember being delayed into a station for a suicide. We were 2 signals out. After announcing the delay and certainly expecting a rather long wait. We entered the platform 10 minutes later.

I don't even know how that could happen in the normal course of events; I can only suspect that the suicide was on another track and they decided to clear you out of the way. There's all sorts of stuff that has to happen before the all clear can be given, like BTP attending and examining the scene, which just cannot take 10 minutes, even if they were already on site!

 

[carriageline]

I don't even know how that could happen in the normal course of events; I can only suspect that the suicide was on another track and they decided to clear you out of the way. There's all sorts of stuff that has to happen before the all clear can be given, like BTP attending and examining the scene, which just cannot take 10 minutes, even if they were already on site!

But if an assurance can be given that the scene is out of the way, and neither driver or passenger will see it, then I can't see why a train can't proceed on an another line/platform.

 

[PHILIPE]

There has been an "Operating incident" affecting trains between Abergavenny and Newport all afternoon. Believed to be Down Line trains affected.
Further details have been released on ATW Journey Check.

As it is an incident on it's own worth mentioning, I have created a new thread re details.

 

[HH]

But if an assurance can be given that the scene is out of the way, and neither driver or passenger will see it, then I can't see why a train can't proceed on an another line/platform.

That's what I was getting at. It's an unusual situation though. Can't think of many places that could happen on the GEML. Particularly not in the area where most suicides take place.

 

[ComUtoR]

But if an assurance can be given that the scene is out of the way, and neither driver or passenger will see it, then I can't see why a train can't proceed on an another line/platform.

Precisely.

The mainline went down the fast and I was on the slow. The incident occurred (mainline train hit the person) and all trains were brought to a stand. Sat at the signal expecting a very long delay but the Signaler came on the CSR explained the delay. Next thing I know we got the road into the platform. Bay platforms kept open. Slow line used to terminate and change ends. Fast line closed.

Same station (sadly its a common occurrence) Same line and it resulted in an evacuation and the station being closed. :/

I've been asked to go wrong road into a busy London station because there was a points failure. It was a rather amusing conversation with the Signaler. Halfway through him telling me that I was being held because of the points failure and that all platforms were blocked and I had no choice but to sit there. He realized that my booked platform was free and I could drop down wrong road onto a GPL and shunt into the station. "Clear to pass xxx at danger drive, the route is set to xxx gpl and from xxx you are clear into the station."

Honestly, It really can be a matter of how long the string is that day.

 

[jon0844]

I was at St Pancras today for an event and there were regular announcements from EMT apologising for delays due to someone being hit by a train near St Albans. No generic incident mentioned there then.

 

[43074]

I was at St Pancras today for an event and there were regular announcements from EMT apologising for delays due to someone being hit by a train near St Albans. No generic incident mentioned there then.

The same at Leicester yesterday due to the incident at Bedford, still announced as a person being hit by a train rather than emergency services dealing with an incident.

 

[sarahj]

I was at St Pancras today for an event and there were regular announcements from EMT apologising for delays due to someone being hit by a train near St Albans. No generic incident mentioned there then.

Down here in Brighton, we got the 'emergency services dealing with an incident' message for the same thing. This was at the same time as recovering from flood damage and staff shortages. Glad I was walking out the door at the time.

 

[DarloRich]

When you stand at the edge of the platform on those black dog days. Just maybe, having someone to talk to, may help. Pick up the phone.

http://www.samaritans.org/
08457 90 90 90

give them a ring - no names no shame

You forgot "end of"

Not wanting to devalue their work or be glib in any way, but with most mobile networks charging north of 30p a minute for that call, I'm hoping that person on the platform isn't short of credit.

they will call you back if needed

How do you decide how long it will be ?

I've sat at a signal for almost an hour for a trespasser and I've been barely delayed less than a couple of minutes for a trespasser. In all my years as a Driver and even knowing the specific and often intricate details of incidents etc. I still cannot tell you how long it will be.

As a passenger. How do you make your decision with such accuracy ?

Not in my experience. There are just too many variables. As I said. Even with the most accurate information the delay is very random.

I'll second that. A new manager asked me 'typical' delays for certain types on incident and I quite honestly said that every time is different.

Agreed - the furthest I have gone with any analysis has been average delays for broadly similar occurrences of disruption. The figures within the sample vary vastly!

Plus if at the time of the announcement they gave an idea of how long the delay would be then that would stop people pestering staff for more information.

How angry would you get to be told the delay was expected to be 30 minutes when it turned out to be 90? I realise people don't like to hear this but it often is, really, a how long is a piece of string answer. Each incident, especially a death, is very different.

but big incidents are not as random as some are trying to make out.

60 minutes is an undreamed of speed. 90 minutes is as good as I've ever seen it. Mostly it's 120-150 minutes delay, even if things get moving again a bit sooner. An announcement that things won't get moving again for over an hour, and more probably two, would be more helpful than simply "things aren't moving at present because of an operating incident". This could be updated as further news came in, but at least people know the scale of the problem.

whilst i am sure you are correct my view is that the effects and delay times vary vastly depending upon circumstances .

I do actually agree that if a firm (ish) time for service restoration can be given then it should be. The problems come for the front line staff when the 30 minute delay becomes 60, becomes 90, becomes 120 etc. That is why people are cautious about giving out times.

But if an assurance can be given that the scene is out of the way, and neither driver or passenger will see it, then I can't see why a train can't proceed on an another line/platform.

that happens and did so recently at Milton Keynes. 2 platforms closed with trains serving the other platforms.

 

[HH]

I do actually agree that if a firm (ish) time for service restoration can be given then it should be. The problems come for the front line staff when the 30 minute delay becomes 60, becomes 90, becomes 120 etc. That is why people are cautious about giving out times.

This can happen, and of course will be an issue when it does, but it doesn't usually happen, so I ask you, is it better to **** people off at every incident, or only the 1 in 10 where it gets much worse than normal?

I certainly accept that outwardly similar incidents can take varying amounts of time to clear, but if you can look a little more in depth at the incidents then you will see that certain assumptions can be made.

As a daily traveller on the GEML for over 15 years and someone who worked there for several years (and had access to the performance data) I know that the vast majority of "person on the line incidents" happen in the Romford area. So does the operator, NR and BTP and they've actually got reasonably consistent in the amount of time it takes to clear the incident.

Of course if the incident took place somewhere else then they might not be able to make a good estimate, but for 90% of these incidents if you say 1.5-2 hours you'll be in the right ball park. I know that and act accordingly. I think it would be helpful if all passengers had that information. Don't you?