Dumfries - Glasgow mobile ticket dispute

[Terzie]

Hi,

I was referred here from twitter (sorry don't know user name on here) and this forum was suggested so I hope I'm in the right place!

I bought a mobile ticket from the trainline on their app for the 13:15 train from Dumfries to Glasgow Central. On board the service (that exact service!) the guard tells me this is Scotrail and we don't accept those tickets. I had to buy a new ticket on the train. At the station I asked again and they confirmed Scotrail don't accept mobile tickets. They said take it up with trainline for selling me an invalid ticket.

Now I seem to be involved an ongoing wrangle on twitter with trainline who send me round in circles!

• Trainline say route is operated by Northern who take mobile tickets,
• Northern say they don't run that route (nothing north of Carlisle) and Scotrail do,
• Scotrail say they don't take mobile tickets.

Any suggestions? This is getting ridiculous quite frankly.

:-x

 

[yorkie]

Welcome Yes you're in the right place.

Can you upload some screenshots?

It's not the customers' problem. Scotrail should NOT have charged you. The correct action is to issue a ticket irregularity report (TIR) and for Scotrail to take it up with thetrainline.

But am I surprised? Not one bit!

Scotrail have histoy in this regard, along with various other operators.

I'd write to both companies. I'm happy to proof read any letters.

The train is technically operated by Scotrail, but many industry systems show it as operated by Northern (they operate the train as far as Carlisle) but none of that should be of any concern to the customer.

 

[me123]

OK, I think I see what's happened (edit: Yorkie beat me to it!).

First of all, I can't see any trains that leave Dumfries at 13:15. Can you just confirm which train you were on (a date might be useful as well?).

Some services run between Glasgow and Newcastle via Kilmarnock and Carlisle, as you may be aware. These are operated by Scotrail trains throughout, but the crew changes at Carlisle (i.e., North of Carlisle is Scotrail crew on Scotrail trains, whilst East of Carlisle is Northern Crew on Scotrail trains).The trains are sometimes advertised as Scotrail services Southbound and Northern services Northbound. This means that, going North, you could be on a Scotrail service operated on a Scotrail train by Scotrail staff which is advertised on some channels as being a Northern train, because it started in Newcastle using Northern staff.

If you were on a service that started back in Newcastle (which I suspect you were), it is possible that TheTrainLine's booking system thinks you were booked to go on a Northern train. I've quickly looked at TTL who do advertise these services as Northern services, whilst the services that start at Carlisle are correctly advertised as Scotrail trains.

I think Scotrail are technically correct here (although I'll agree with Yorkie that they shouldn't have charged you) and it was their train being operated by their staff over their route. Scotrail do not accept mobile tickets. TheTrainLine should refund you for it. You should contact them directly rather than using ****ter if you want someone to actually look into the case.

If you're still struggling, speak to Scotrail. They should confirm to you that they were operating the train and that they don't accept mobile tickets. If you get a written statement that that is the case, then that could help your case with TTL.

 

[yorkie]

How much are the sums involved?

Edit:

I think Scotrail are technically correct here (although I'll agree with Yorkie that they shouldn't have charged you) ....

Just seen your edit; we are in agreement

Scotrail got their money - twice!

 

[me123]

^ Yes, I agree with you there (I edited my post just before you replied to clarify that).

 

[najaB]

What was the ticket you were sold - was it Dumfries to Glasgow, or was it from a point south of Carlisle?

 

[Terzie]

Ok, first of all thanks for the help you've all given me so far - I've been getting so frustrated at trainline.

The train was actually the 15:50 - I booked it at 13:15 hence my confusion - sorry!

It was for Friday 2nd December and shows on the trainline app as operated by Northern.

On board the train the guard said no, not northern - it was Scotrail.

Northern have said they only operate as far as Carlisle then it becomes Scotrail.

Scotrail said they have no facilities to read a mobile ticket.

As for twitter or calling customer service - past experience has proved that customer service for Scotrail are shockingly awful and the only response I have ever had that was worth more than a chocolate teapot was via twitter.

I no longer have the additional ticket I bought as the ticket gates at Central swallow them - there wasn't a guard nearby so I had to do that.

I don't know who I should take this up with but have focussed on the trainline as they sold the ticket and stated it was valid when it clearly wasn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not a lot of money (£16.20) but why should I have to pay twice? For me it's the principle of being mis-sold something!

 

[yorkie]

Ok, first of all thanks for the help you've all given me so far - I've been getting so frustrated at trainline.

The train was actually the 15:50 - I booked it at 13:15 hence my confusion - sorry!

It was for Friday 2nd December and shows on the trainline app as operated by Northern.

On board the train the guard said no, not northern - it was Scotrail.

Northern have said they only operate as far as Carlisle then it becomes Scotrail.

Northern are correct; the dispute has nothing to do with them.

Scotrail said they have no facilities to read a mobile ticket.

That's irrelevant to you. It's a matter they need to take up with thetrainline.

There are some journeys which can be undertaken on operators who have no facility to check your ticket, but that does not in any way determine validity. I don't want to give examples here as I want to remain on-topic.

As for twitter or calling customer service - past experience has proved that customer service for Scotrail are shockingly awful and the only response I have ever had that was worth more than a chocolate teapot was via twitter.

Most train companies are awful at customer service, sadly.

I no longer have the additional ticket I bought as the ticket gates at Central swallow them - there wasn't a guard nearby so I had to do that.

They are not permitted to leave ticket gates closed and unstaffed. If there are no staff to oversee the gates, they must be left open. How did you pay for the ticket? Were both tickets the same price? What are the sums involved?

I don't know who I should take this up with but have focussed on the trainline as they sold the ticket and stated it was valid when it clearly wasn't.

Scotrail should not have charged you for the second ticket. I'd take it up with them both.

I will ask a forum member, who successfully got compensation from Scotrail after a similar ordeal, if they are able to help...

 

[Terzie]

There were staff around talking to other customers beyond the gates and nearby, but no-one close enough to the gates to talk to so I had to use ticket to exit and of course the gate keeps the ticket.

Having checked online I believe it was indeed a train that originated in Newcastle and up to Carlisle was operated by Northern - Dumfries is the third stop in Scotland though so unlikely to even be a change-over point for staff.

I completely agree it isn't to do with Northern. I would be unclear personally though if it was trainline's fault for selling me a ticket type that was not valid or Scotrail's for not accepting an unusual ticket. That said trainline's own site doesn't list Scotrail as being an operator who accept mobile tickets so I'm still leaning to they shouldn't have sold me the mobile ticket in the first place.

As an aside I would have just bought the ticket from Scotrail to be collected from a machine at Dumfries station but the Scotrail website says there is no facility to collect tickets there - but the guard tells me there is a machine to collect from, albeit fairly new.

Also to clarify another question asked I was buying a single ticket for the journey from Dumfries to Glasgow Central. My journey didn't start anywhere but Dumfries although no train services start there so clearly the train came in from somewhere else first.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it was a Newcastle to Glasgow service, shown in many systems as operated by Northern throughout, but actually operated by Scotrail between Carlisle and Glasgow. (see Scotrail or Northern? for one of many threads on this)

Yes thetrainline should not have sold you the fare in that particular format but that's a matter between Scotrail and thetrainline, and Scotrail should have taken that up with trainline without leaving you in this ridiculous position. It's poor service by Scotrail but consistent with previous incidents I am aware of. There is no effective regulator, no passenger watchdog with any teeth and no ombudsman to ensure the rail companies carry out correct procedures. I've seen this sort of nonsense before, and I'll see it again, sadly.

How much was the original ticket, and how much were you asked to pay for a second time?

Have you had the chance to draft a letter yet?

 

[Terzie]

Thanks all again for the help - and support - I was beginning to think it was me!

To answer a couple of questions in one post....

I don't want the publicity for myself that would come with going to the press so I really, really don't want to go there. It's my personal choice and I know this is a public forum but here I can stay comparatively private with a nickname - same with twitter. If I don't get a solution on Monday I"ll write to trainline and Scotrail although it is more tricky as the gate swallowed my additional ticket so I haven't got that as proof!

As mentioned in an earlier post the ticket was not expensive - it was £16.20. I was charged the same price for the additional ticket and the guard even mentioned "why bother with trainline when its the same price on board?". Dumfries was reported (I now know incorrectly) as having no ticket machine, and I know there are often long queues at the ticket office there though.

 

[Merseysider]

Was the ticket purchased onboard with a traceable method of payment, eg card?

 

[Adam0984]

I know it's slightly off the ticket topic but why do Scotrail still run the token service all the way to Newcastle. I'd have thought it was maybe time to end it and Northern run their own service Carlisle to Newcastle at them times that SR do

 

[Terzie]

Was the ticket purchased onboard with a traceable method of payment, eg card?

It was purchased on board but with cash

 

[BlueFox]

I'd have thought it was maybe time to end it and Northern run their own service Carlisle to Newcastle at them times that SR do

I hope that doesn't happen. When I travel to Newcastle I try to get one of the Scotrail services because I know it will be a decent train, not a 142.

 

[me123]

I'd really push TTL on this one, as they are probably the ones who are most to blame. Scotrail made a mistake too, but that was only because of TTL's error. TTL simply shouldn't have sold you the mobile ticket in the first place, and it is of course possible that someone else will fall into this trap in the future.

I'd contact Scotrail ± Northern to confirm that Scotrail do operate the train (get something in writing - email or hard copy). Then TTL should have no reason not to refund you, since the people they say were operating the train deny doing so, and the people they say were not operating the train claim to be doing so. Don't be afraid to get aggressive if need be - being nice doesn't get you anywhere with "customer service" representatives.

And absolutely take Yorkie up with his proofreading offer.

 

[yorkie]

I still wouldn't until both parties (Scotrail and TheTrainline) have proved unhelpful....

I've just seen this:
https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/807260787802828804

Hi Terry. I've spoken with a manager and your Mobile ticket should have been accepted on a ScotRail service... 1/2

[email protected] and we will arrange that. 2/2 ^L

So, once an email is sent (and I am happy to proof read it), that should be the end of the matter!

 

[Terzie]

thanks yorkie - and that is why I will wait until Monday before I write a formal complaint but I've heard nothing more from Scotrail since I responded to them after that tweet yesterday.

Meantime the trainline continue to witter on on twitter...

 

[me123]

They've probably not got much more to say. Of course, you don't have your ticket any more unfortunately but you're probably better now speaking to Scotrail's customer service team proper than continuing on ****ter.

That person from TTL is clearly... special. Although Lewis is "currently getting to the bottom of it for you". I suspect you'll get a refund somehow or other.

 

[island]

Best solution going forward: Don't use trainline. They charge more for the same ticket than buying directly from the train company you're using.

 

[Deerfold]

Best solution going forward: Don't use trainline. They charge more for the same ticket than buying directly from the train company you're using.

Whilst usually the case, if you use a debit card on their mobile app for a mobile ticket for the same day they don't.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The owning TOC for the ticket flow has to authorise tickets to be available on m-Tickets so I'd take it up with Scotrail


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[philthetube]

Outside the railway your issue would definitely be with the trainline, they sold you a product which was no use, the reason why is irrelevant, in the same way as if an iron you buy does not work you do not go the the manufacturer you go the the retailer, it is then up to the retailer to take the next step.

 

[Deerfold]

The owning TOC for the ticket flow has to authorise tickets to be available on m-Tickets so I'd take it up with Scotrail


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Although as The Trainline's systems show the journey as being operated by Northern I don't see how Scotrail could influence whether it could be sold.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Although as The Trainline's systems show the journey as being operated by Northern I don't see how Scotrail could influence whether it could be sold.

Wallsendmag is correct though; in the fares database there is a system for enabling which fares can be fulfilled on m-tickets or other non-traditional means. It is enabled flow-by-flow, so Dumfries to Glasgow would need to be specifically added. I'm just speculating, but it could be that Trainline and Northern have come to some agreement where they avoid the hassle of maintaining all this data and just allow m-tickets on all services shown as operated by Northern in the timetable, and hadn't properly considered that services shown as operated by Northern may not actually be operated by Northern in their entirety?