Duplicate Bus Services

[ClydeCoaster]

When I was growing up I remember seeing some buses with 'DUPLICATE' in the destination blind, which my former bus driver dad explained was displayed when services were so busy an extra bus would run behind the timetabled service.

Setting aside the obvious in that driver shortages can't guarantee the existing timetabled services in many parts of the country, is the practice of running a duplicate bus still legally possible?

I was prompted to think of this as a Van Hool Astromega left Kilmarnock bus station this morning absolutely rammed for the X76 service to Glasgow, with a queue still waiting and who would have to wait for the next bus 30 minutes later. This obviously isn't usual as the trains are on strike, so I was wondering if there was additional capacity could Stagecoach simply have put 2 coaches on that service.

 

[dodecahedron67]

When I was growing up I remember seeing some buses with 'DUPLICATE' in the destination blind, which my former bus driver dad explained was displayed when services were so busy an extra bus would run behind the timetabled service.

Setting aside the obvious in that driver shortages can't guarantee the existing timetabled services in many parts of the country, is the practice of running a duplicate bus still legally possible?

I was prompted to think of this as a Van Hool Astromega left Kilmarnock bus station this morning absolutely rammed for the X76 service to Glasgow, with a queue still waiting and who would have to wait for the next bus 30 minutes later. This obviously isn't usual as the trains are on strike, so I was wondering if there was additional capacity could Stagecoach simply have put 2 coaches on that service.

You can run a duplicate bus, but only +- 10 minutes before or after a scheduled service.

Obviously on services with intervals of 20 minutes or less, this means whenever you want

Happens a lot here in York at busy periods, christmas markets for P&R services and fresher’s week for uni services

 

[Haywain]

You can run a duplicate bus, but only +- 10 minutes before or after a scheduled service.

Is that legislated?

 

[GusB]

When I was growing up I remember seeing some buses with 'DUPLICATE' in the destination blind, which my former bus driver dad explained was displayed when services were so busy an extra bus would run behind the timetabled service.

Setting aside the obvious in that driver shortages can't guarantee the existing timetabled services in many parts of the country, is the practice of running a duplicate bus still legally possible?

I was prompted to think of this as a Van Hool Astromega left Kilmarnock bus station this morning absolutely rammed for the X76 service to Glasgow, with a queue still waiting and who would have to wait for the next bus 30 minutes later. This obviously isn't usual as the trains are on strike, so I was wondering if there was additional capacity could Stagecoach simply have put 2 coaches on that service.

Duplication used to be quite common on Citylink services. The Aberdeen to Inverness service on Friday afternoons was quite often rammed with students returning home for the weekend and if Bluebird was unable to produce the extra coach, Mair's would often step in.

Similarly, services heading north from Edinburgh would often be very busy with tourists, so a duplicate was often provided as far as Perth. I'm not sure how they decided which operator would pick up the extra work; presumably there was some sort of list that control would have. It was always interesting, and sometimes disappointing to see what turned up.

I've never experienced a duplicate on a regular service bus, though.

You can run a duplicate bus, but only +- 10 minutes before or after a scheduled service.

I wasn't aware of this. Where does it state that this is the case?

 

[Ken H]

This goes back to the days when bus companies had to apply to the traffic Commissioners to run a service. They had to specify the times the buses ran, and the fares on the application. This is where the duplicate thing came from. It was supposed to be part of the parent service, not just running a bus because they felt like it.
Nowadays you just tell the commissioner you are going to run a bus. What the rules are for running extras, I don't know.

 

[markymark2000]

Is that legislated?

I wasn't aware of this. Where does it state that this is the case?

It's not specifically +-10 minutes but I do believe that this is the accepted case by the traffic commissioners.

As per Traffic Commissioner document PSV353A Operating registered local bus services in England(except London) and Wales Guide for Operators. Page 16

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/705081/PSV353A_local_service_registrations_-_England__except_London__and_Wales.pdf

11) Additional ‘duplicate’ vehicles
There may be times when, due to special circumstances, the number of vehicles normally used to provide the service will not be sufficient to carry all persons wishing to travel or will not be able to provide the service in accordance with the registered timetable. Under these circumstances additional vehicle(s) may be put into service, to operate over any part of the route of the service without the need to vary the registration. They must be operated as closely as possible to the timings in the registered timetable. If it is a regular occurrence that the usual number of vehicles used to provide the service is unable to carry all the persons wishing to travel, that is not a special circumstance. The traffic commissioner may take the view that unregistered local services have been operated if there are no special circumstances which warrant the provision of additional vehicle(s).

Other instances where this is ok is where a route runs every 10 minutes or more frequent and the operator registers the route as 'and at frequent intervals' since the buses can then basically run as frequent as they want so long as they run buses 6 buses per hour. There are some more requirements than that but for basic terms to explain the point.
Source: Traffic Commissioner Statutory Document 14. Point 2.3 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-services-in-england-outside-london-and-wales)

 

[RT4038]

You may recall that this came about as a result of a 'bus war' on Service 192 (Manchester-Hazel Grove) between Stagecoach and UK North 10+ years ago I believe. Both companies engaged in the practice of running 'Duplicate' buses to nurse the other company's bus, rather than because of an excess of passenger demand unable to be coped with by the registered services. As is often the case with such cases, the TC made a ruling which was rather flat footed for other circumstances elsewhere in the country.
I would suggest that an operator on a route without competition like this was is unlikely to encounter any TC issues running Duplicate buses to cater for genuine passenger demand, although if unregistered may not qualify for BSOG payments (which if you've got that many passengers is not likely to be a financial worry). Nor would anyone worry if it took more than 10 minutes to rustle up a bus (and in these times particularly) a driver - just don't be doing it purely to relieve another operator of their custom!

 

[dodecahedron67]

I wasn't aware of this. Where does it state that this is the case?

I’m not sure if it’s explicitly the law or not but when planning for an event earlier this year involving a route that is normally hourly, I was told I could only run extra buses within 10 minutes either side of the scheduled timetable or the TC could have something to say about it.

Safe to say that it was a pain in the arse

 

[AndyW33]

I can remember back in 1972, when I was an NBC Management Trainee, the one coach a day Blackpool-Glasgow express service had 104 duplicates on the returning Saturday of Glasgow Fair fortnight. At this period the number of duplicates permitted could be restricted on the licence issued by the Traffic Commissioners, usually following complaints from other operators or the Railways of unfair competition. But by this stage all the other operators affected by this particular service were in some form of state ownership, so any disputes were sorted out behind the scenes and not dragged before the Commissoners.

 

[RT4038]

I’m not sure if it’s explicitly the law or not but when planning for an event earlier this year involving a route that is normally hourly, I was told I could only run extra buses within 10 minutes either side of the scheduled timetable or the TC could have something to say about it.

Safe to say that it was a pain in the arse

Sounds like the sort of timetable that should have been done as a short notice registration, rather than as Duplicate journeys then!

 

[dodecahedron67]

Sounds like the sort of timetable that should have been done as a short notice registration, rather than as Duplicate journeys then!

If only we’d had enough time for a short notice…

 

[RT4038]

If only we’d had enough time for a short notice…

Know the feeling!

 

[James H]

Morebus sometimes runs duplicates on the 50 to Swanage on busy summer days.

 

[miklcct]

You can run a duplicate bus, but only +- 10 minutes before or after a scheduled service.

Obviously on services with intervals of 20 minutes or less, this means whenever you want

Happens a lot here in York at busy periods, christmas markets for P&R services and fresher’s week for uni services

As an example, for an hourly service with extra demand, shouldn't the best placement for an additional bus to be 30 minutes between the hourly service?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Duplicates were pretty common in Glasgow pre COVID especially short duplicates e.g. Easterhouse to Glasgow city centre 60s, Summerston to Glasgow 61s etc.

 

[RT4038]

As an example, for an hourly service with extra demand, shouldn't the best placement for an additional bus to be 30 minutes between the hourly service?

If the demand was a constant, then possibly, but there are many factors to be taken into account - offices/shops/factory or school finishing or starting at a particular time may require several buses (one 'service car' and the other 'duplicates' maybe not going the full length of the route), or seasonal or market day fluctuations meaning that people congregate and oversubscribe for the hourly (or random) departure, so the 'duplicate' relieves this load but only part of the route. A bus at the 30 minute interval would not have the same effect (and would have to run the full route but only partially loaded).

The need for duplication is so much less now due to fall off in passenger numbers, and more larger capacity vehicles. Up to the mid 70s they were fairly common on rural/interurban routes particularly.

 

[route101]

Last time I saw duplicates was in Glasgow during Covid. On select routes there was a dupe running behind a 2 for example.

Not seen one on any Scottish Citylink or National Express service up here in Scotland.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Last time I saw duplicates was in Glasgow during Covid. On select routes there was a dupe running behind a 2 for example.

Not seen one on any Scottish Citylink or National Express service up here in Scotland.

A coach operator employed friend (who's employer does work for Scottish Citylink) was saying the other weekend that there were 5 coaches employed on one working of the M92 from Aberdeen to Edinburgh recently.

 

[RJ]

In London, extra buses are used to enhance frequencies over a short period of time, generally 30-60 minutes. This is preferred to duplication, with the exception of a few school routes where trips are duplicated and timetabled 1 minute apart.

An exception on the main network was on route 166 where some trips were duplicated in part during the summer months.

 

[JD2168]

Last time I saw one in South Yorkshire was Stagecoach 43 which ran as a duplicate service from Sheffield to Gunstones Bakery for workers there as too many were getting on the normal 43.

 

[Roger1973]

As an example, for an hourly service with extra demand, shouldn't the best placement for an additional bus to be 30 minutes between the hourly service?

If you are adding buses to a 'turn up and go' frequency service (depending on who you ask, less than 15, 12 or 10 minutes) then yes, providing an even service but to a shorter headway is best for all concerned.

Obviously if the demand is regular and predictable, then a half hourly service is more attractive than two buses together every hour, but if it's to cope with occasional peaks of demand, and a service is advertised (as a simple example) as leaving Town on the hour, every hour, not many people are going to turn up for an unexpected bus at half past, and an extra bus around the time of the scheduled departure is going to suit more people.

On the wider question -

From what I can gather, infrequent services with 'duplicate' buses as required on market days (and so on) rather than additional journeys in the timetable tended to be more of a thing in the Tillings group companies, although (I think) Birmingham Corporation had 'Service Extra' as a destination display.

Some operators used the term 'relief' or 'extra' rather than 'duplicate' - sometimes these were scheduled, e.g. where there was a predictable peak demand around school / works times; sometimes they were arranged as required on market days, peak Summer weekends and so on.

London Transport (and then London Country) regularly ran 'Relief' Green Line 'coaches' (albeit usually standard double deck buses) at summer weekends and round special events (Ascot races, racing at Brands Hatch, Biggin Hill Air Show and so on) as in (photo not mine) these two bus Routemasters on summer Sunday reliefs at Windsor in the 1970s.

 

[ChrisC]

Stagecoach Mansfield have been running 2 buses on the 2210 Pronto service from Nottingham to Mansfield on some Saturday evenings recently when there have been no trains running on the Robin Hood Line.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Stagecoach South’s route 71 0705 Guildford to Woolmer Hill and 1525 Woolmer Hill to Guildford journeys have a duplicate south of Chiddingfold to assist with school loadings on school days.

 

[Mugby]

The definition of a Duplicate has obviously changed since de-regulation. Prior to 1986, a Duplicate was a Relief to the service vehicle and had to depart at about the same time. The Traffic Commissioners could impose a limit on the number of Duplicates but in the case of ordinary stage carriage services, just one extra bus (per busy departure) was sufficient. The limit was normally imposed on Express Service departures and was probably more to avoid traffic congestion than anything else. The famous X60 service from Manchester to Blackpool, for example, in it's glory days had a Peak Vehicle Requirement of 250 buses on Summer Saturdays. Another example was Barton's Tyneside - Midlands Express, taken over from Hall Bros. of South Shields in 1967. Barton's often ran as many as 20 Duplicates on Summer weekends in the 1970s.

Another requirement, pre-deregulation was that vehicles operating Duplicate journeys were meant to display just that (or Relief) either on the destination blind, or by means of a sign with could be lowered or folded away or by means of a prominent paper label. This was to demonstrate that it was a genuine Duplicate to the service car and not an extra journey which had been slotted into the timetable without authorisation. The Traffic Commissioners staff would carry out checks from time to time to ensure the rules were being adhered to. The suggestion (up thread) that the best way to duplicate a busy hourly service would be to operate an extra journey on the half hour would have been strictly against the rules.

 

[Simon75]

A few years ago, due to excess bookings, National Express, put duplicate for a Victoria to Liverpool via Stoke-on-Trent. One coach went direct to Liverpool only while another went direct to Stoke-on-Trent

During Covid, First Potteries, added extra duplicates on several services mainly during school hours
Example 10 Hanley to Stafford , has school dupes as S101
The section of the 3/3A between Hanley and Tunstall (normally every 10 minutes Monday to Hanley , had dupes , which meant a 5 minute service

 

[philthetube]

A few years ago, due to excess bookings, National Express, put duplicate for a Victoria to Liverpool via Stoke-on-Trent. One coach went direct to Liverpool only while another went direct to Stoke-on-Trent

This used to be common. Cambridge to Birmingham services were often duplicated; all passengers for Brum were put on the dupe and if full, it would be on its way direct. If seats were available it would be sent on to Bedford to fill up and away it went.

 

[M60lad]

Last Saturday Burnley Bus Company ran 2 Buses on the 20:00 X43 departure from Manchester to Burnley due to heavy loadings earlier in the day with people heading to Manchester

As for National Express I know that Duplicates are still used especially on 540 Manchester-London service as I know Tyrers of Farnworth have been doing a few of them recently as I know a couple of drivers that have been driving them.

 

[Ken H]

Leeds City Transport used to run duplicates for big events.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A few years ago, due to excess bookings, National Express, put duplicate for a Victoria to Liverpool via Stoke-on-Trent. One coach went direct to Liverpool only while another went direct to Stoke-on-Trent

You do know that this is fairly standard for National Express and always has been? Service car does the full route and dupes can either follow or be sent direct. In a previous life, that was something that I dealt with and, in summer months, there would be a couple of "tramper" vehicles that would simply travel the country with a set of drivers being rotated in to cover gaps in the network where demand was outstripping capacity.

There was a long term duplicate plan (as you know that certain routes and certain journeys) would always need doing (e.g. Liverpool to North Wales coast on a Saturday during Spring/Summer) and those were booked and resourced months in advance. Others were done on the basis of how well routes were selling.

In terms of local bus duplication, the Middlesbrough to Scarborough service in the 1980s was a lot less frequent than now and so they would often have to duplicate the 0920 departure out of Middlesbrough in the summer - again, it would be a direct to Scarborough and miss out Guisborough and Whitby.

 

[AndyW33]

Another requirement, pre-deregulation was that vehicles operating Duplicate journeys were meant to display just that (or Relief) either on the destination blind, or by means of a sign with could be lowered or folded away or by means of a prominent paper label. This was to demonstrate that it was a genuine Duplicate to the service car and not an extra journey which had been slotted into the timetable without authorisation. The Traffic Commissioners staff would carry out checks from time to time to ensure the rules were being adhered to. The suggestion (up thread) that the best way to duplicate a busy hourly service would be to operate an extra journey on the half hour would have been strictly against the rules.

Certainly by the time I entered the bus industry in 1971 this requirement had either been done away with or was generally ignored. Taking the very large ex-BET companies as an example, neither Ribble nor Midland Red had Duplicate, Extra or Relief on the blinds at all, Ribble had no stickers saying this, or foldable boards etc, and I never saw one on a Midland Red bus at any time. Birmingham City Transport did have the famously unhelpful "Service Extra" destination, but growing up in Birmingham I always thought that this was mostly used where the actual terminal point didn't appear on the blind fitted to the bus in use (perhaps because of interdepot transfers, obsolete blinds, odd peak period workings by different depots). Certainly buses that must have been duplicates (such as the streams of Bank Holiday buses to/from Rednal for the Lickey Hills) mostly showed the true destination - or as close as Birmingham ever got to that since they showed the outer terminus of a route in both directions.