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Dvt 82200

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ash39

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Hi,

Just wondering if anyone knows why this number was allocated as it goes against common practice? I thought it may have been renumbered after an accident but found photos of it in intercity livery!
 
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David Goddard

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Unusual practice this but definitely 82200 from new.
Unless this was a prototype that was later absorbed into mainstream service (just an idea?)

Also unusual that they built 32 of them to work with 31 Class 91s.
 

ash39

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I thought the prototype thing too. looking at motive power review from 1989, all the first runs and press shots at of 82201 - no mention of 82200.

Good decision to build 32 in the end as one was written off in the selby crash, think it was 214. Interestingly the coaches seem to be numbered a similar way, so maybe that's why it is. Mk4 rfm buffet cars are numbered 10300-10333 . So 34 of those, wonder what the three spares are doing.
 

Helvellyn

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All the Mark 4 vehicles started off with a vehicle ending 00:

10300 - RFM
11200 - FO
12200 - TSOE
12300 - TSOD
12400 - TSO

It also wasn't that uncommon:

10000 - Prototype Mk 3 RFB (Later TRFB 40000)
10100 - Prototype Mk 3 RUK (Later TRUK 40500)
10200 - Mk 3A RFM
10500 - Mk 3A SLEP
11000 - Prototype Mk 3 FO (Later TF 41000)
12000 - Prototype Mk 3 TSO (Later TS 42000)
40300 - Mk 3 TRUB (Later TRFB 40700)
44000 - Mk 3 TGS

Mk 1 vehicles also started off with coaches ending in 00, e.g. FO 3000 and BFK 14000.

It is just locomotives that can't start off ending 000.

Therefore, if anything, the Mk 3B DVTs go against practice as they started with 82101 and not 82100.
 

ash39

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That's what threw me, the mk3 DVT's starting with 82101!

One more question then, was 82200 the first built or was 82201? As I said above in the book I have from 1989, all the photos seem to be of 91001 and 82201.
 

elarchibaldo

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Original pre-tops locos started with 00 such as D9000 & D6700, so that perhaps has something to do with 82200, but I doubt it though. Just an idea
 

David10

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Original pre-tops locos started with 00 such as D9000 & D6700, so that perhaps has something to do with 82200, but I doubt it though. Just an idea
Pre TOPS '00' locos tended to gain the last number in the new series eg D9000 became 55022, D6700 became 37350.
 

David Goddard

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I suppose these theories fit as the DVTs are after all coaching stock and not locomotives, and yet the Mk3 ones bucked the trend as opposed to the Mk4s.

150001 also has car numbers ending 00.
 

sprinterguy

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That's what threw me, the mk3 DVT's starting with 82101!

One more question then, was 82200 the first built or was 82201? As I said above in the book I have from 1989, all the photos seem to be of 91001 and 82201.
91003 was actually the first class 91 to be released from works, in April 1988 if I remember correctly. The early pairing of 91001 and 82201 will more than likely have been to do with publicity reasons.

82200 was not built out of sync with the others, so will have been the first built.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
..and one class 89 ?
I don't think that the class 89 was regularly or even occasionally used with mark 4 rakes in Intercity days, prior to its premature move into preservation. It was only when it re-entered service briefly with GNER that it saw use with mark 4s. In BR days, it initially worked Peterborough commuter services with one of the short-term mark 3 and buffer fitted HST power car rakes, and later, when the buffer fitted HST power cars and the mark 3s were redeployed elsewhere, it continued to work the Peterborough commuter services with one of the East Coast's mark 2 commuter rakes.
 

sprinterguy

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I thought the prototype thing too. looking at motive power review from 1989, all the first runs and press shots at of 82201 - no mention of 82200.

Good decision to build 32 in the end as one was written off in the selby crash, think it was 214. Interestingly the coaches seem to be numbered a similar way, so maybe that's why it is. Mk4 rfm buffet cars are numbered 10300-10333 . So 34 of those, wonder what the three spares are doing.
There were also originally thirty three TSO(E) vehicles in the 122xx series. Always useful to have spares I suppose. Although conversely the order for twenty three TSOs (12490 - 512) and eight FOs (11264 - 271) was cancelled when the decision was taken to reduce the length of the trains from ten carriages to nine.

82221 was the DVT written off in the Great Heck crash.
 

ash39

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Great knowledge, cheers!

Presumably the DVT in the Hatfield incident was repaired?
 

Manchester77

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A bit random but if a mark 4 DVT has been written off does that mean that theres a full intercity 225 set without a DVT?
If so then, would it be cost effective to take a stored mark 3 and convert it to work with class 91s and mark 4 coach electrics?
 

ash39

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No, as above there were 32 dvts built so still one left for every class 91. There was talk of making another set of mk4s out of spare vehicles to put less strain on the diagramming but not sure what they'd do for a dvt or locomotive.
 

43167

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A bit random but if a mark 4 DVT has been written off does that mean that theres a full intercity 225 set without a DVT?
If so then, would it be cost effective to take a stored mark 3 and convert it to work with class 91s and mark 4 coach electrics?

The whole set involved at Heck was written off, so no, there arnt any sets DVT-less.
 

sprinterguy

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A bit random but if a mark 4 DVT has been written off does that mean that theres a full intercity 225 set without a DVT?
No, quite the opposite in fact: There were enough mark 4 carriages written off as a result of Hatfield and Great Heck that there are now only thirty mark 4 rakes but thirty one DVTs. The Mallard refurbishment sought to consolidate the remaining sets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Great knowledge, cheers!

Presumably the DVT in the Hatfield incident was repaired?
Yes. It was in fact 82200 that was involved in the Hatfield derailment.
 

hairyhandedfool

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A bit random but if a mark 4 DVT has been written off does that mean that theres a full intercity 225 set without a DVT?
If so then, would it be cost effective to take a stored mark 3 and convert it to work with class 91s and mark 4 coach electrics?

GNER had accidents at Great Heck and Hatfield, which have all taken some Mk4s out of service.
 
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ash39

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GNER had accidents at Selby, Great Heck and Hatfield, which have all taken some Mk4s out of service.

Great heck and Selby was the same incident.

If there are enough vehicles left to make up a 31st rake, it would make sense to hire in a (underused) DBS 90 and use it on Leeds services where the 15mph deficit is less of an issue, like GNER did in the late 1990's when it put the 91's through the 91/1 program.

Great in theort, but no doubt some of the spare vehicles have been left to perish beyond serviceable condition, as the stored class 90's have.
 

jopsuk

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If wikipedia is to be believed, there were 314 Mark 4s built and 302 remain in service (12 scrapped. Does this include the DVTs? 30 sets of nine passenger vehicles would be 270- leaving a heck of a lot of operational spares!
 

sprinterguy

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If wikipedia is to be believed, there were 314 Mark 4s built and 302 remain in service (12 scrapped. Does this include the DVTs? 30 sets of nine passenger vehicles would be 270- leaving a heck of a lot of operational spares!
Yes, the total of 302 does include the DVTs. There are 271 passenger vehicles and 31 DVTs, since the write off of 82221.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If there are enough vehicles left to make up a 31st rake, it would make sense to hire in a (underused) DBS 90 and use it on Leeds services where the 15mph deficit is less of an issue, like GNER did in the late 1990's when it put the 91's through the 91/1 program.

Great in theort, but no doubt some of the spare vehicles have been left to perish beyond serviceable condition, as the stored class 90's have.
There aren’t enough spare mark 4s to form up a thirty first rake, nor are there any mark 4s that are stored out of service: Every vehicle that can be used, is being used.

At one time GNER proposed forming up three mark 3 rakes to work with mark 4 DVTs and class 91s, in order to allow three mark 4 sets to be disbanded and an additional carriage to be added to each of the remaining 27 mark 4 sets to bring them all up to ten carriages in length – The total number of rakes would have remained the same.
 

ash39

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Thanks sprinterguy.

Speaking of all things mk4, just passed the ecml in the car and saw a set of east coast liveried vehicles with a GNER blue TSOE - not seen a mixed up set like that before.
 

Helvellyn

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There were also originally thirty three TSO(E) vehicles in the 122xx series. Always useful to have spares I suppose. Although conversely the order for twenty three TSOs (12490 - 512) and eight FOs (11264 - 271) was cancelled when the decision was taken to reduce the length of the trains from ten carriages to nine.
Actually, 32 TSOE vehicles were built: 12200-12220/12222-12232. The bodyshell that should have been 12221 was mistakenly fitted out as TSO 12405 during construction, so the vehicle that was 12405 was then converted to TSOE 12232!

Also, 11264-11271 and 12490-12512 weren't cancelled in the way you describe. The original Mk 4 formations were like the HST sets they replaced, 8 passenger coaches: -

Mk 4 - FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSOE
Mk 3 - TF-TF-TRFB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS

BR, however, because of passenger growth then approved plans to make the sets be formed of 9 passenger coaches and 11264-11271 and 12490-12512 were the coaches added on to the original order with Met-Camm. According to information in the Platform 5 books InterCity then revised the formations they wanted and the order for 8 FOs and 23 TSOs was changed to 5 FOs and 26 TSOs, i.e. 11272-11276 and 12513-12538. Why they changed the numbers of all the additional vehicles completely and didn't just cancel 11269-11271 and add 12513-12515 I don't know.

The above formations applied to 28 of the original 30 sets. There were also 2 Super Pullman sets that replaced the East Coast HST Pullman sets for use on the Yorkshire Pullman (King's Cross to Leeds) and the Tees-Tyne Pullman (King's Cross to Newcastle): -

Mk 4 - FO-RFM-FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSOE
Mk 3 - TF-TF-TRFK-TF-TRFB-TS-TS-TGS

This is why 34 RFMs were built, which once InterCity brought in the Pullman sets formed: -

Mk 4 - FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSOE

meant there were 4 spare kitchen cars, and is why after Selby and Hatfield GNER had two spare RFMs that it was able to rebuild as FOs.
 

sprinterguy

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Wow, thanks Helvellyn for your seemingly encyclopeadic input :) I stand corrected on a couple of points then :oops: I have to admit, that I had simply completely forgotten about the 12221/12232 switch-around.

A book I have in my possession that was written and published concurrent with the development of the Intercity 225, in 1986, does state that the 225 sets were originally proposed to be formed of eleven carriages (Not ten, which I was basing erroneously on the number of cancelled/renumbered vehicles) plus a DVT, even if this figure was rounded down at a later stage of development.

I had no idea about the original Super Pullman sets, that's very interesting :) I do recall the later formation of the "Pullman" sets with three FOs and one RFM.
 

Helvellyn

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I had simply completely forgotten about the 12221/12232 switch-around.
I've no idea why the bodyshell originally intended for 12405 simply never became 12221, as 12221 would never have been registered on TOPS for the vehicle that did become 12405.

A book I have in my possession that was written and published concurrent with the development of the Intercity 225, in 1986, does state that the 225 sets were originally proposed to be formed of eleven carriages (Not ten, which I was basing erroneously on the number of cancelled/renumbered vehicles) plus a DVT, even if this figure was rounded down at a later stage of development.
That's interesting, as it would have been a massive increase on capacity based on the HST sets the "Electras" were to replace.

I had no idea about the original Super Pullman sets, that's very interesting :) I do recall the later formation of the "Pullman" sets with three FOs and one RFM.
I think that revising the "Pullman" sets the way they did gave greater flexibity in set rostering, as the two "Super Pullman" HST sets were restricted to the same diagram day in, day out. The "Tees-Tyne Pullman" set was based at Heaton and the "Yorkshire Pullman" set at Neville Hill. Yet all the Mk4 sets were (and still are) based at Bounds Green, so it would have been awkward having two sets based in London that would have spent every night in Leeds and Newcastle.

It's interesting that the four West Coast "Super Pullman" sets lasted in service a lot longer, but I can't recall if they lasted until Virgin took on the West Coast franchise.

If InterCity had won out for its 16 IC225 sets for the West Coast over Network SouthEast's order for 41 Class 365 units, I wonder if they'd still be on the West Coast (Likely on Euston - West Midlands), or with East Coast/East Anglia?
 

theblackwatch

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I've no idea why the bodyshell originally intended for 12405 simply never became 12221, as 12221 would never have been registered on TOPS for the vehicle that did become 12405.

I'm pretty sure (from memory) that the 12221-12232-12405 swap was due to one vehicle being involved in an accident, (possibly involving 12204?). I'll see if I can find details anywhere.
 

sprinterguy

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I'm pretty sure (from memory) that the 12221-12232-12405 swap was due to one vehicle being involved in an accident, (possibly involving 12204?). I'll see if I can find details anywhere.
My 1991 Platform 5 book does show that the original reason for the swap did have something to do with 12204 being unable to enter service in line with the other deliveries of mark 4s, although it doesn’t state why. IIRC it also says that 12232 was due to be renumbered 12204 at that time, though of course this didn’t happen. 12204 seemed to be out of service for some time: It doesn’t appear in the 1993 Platform 5 book, either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If InterCity had won out for its 16 IC225 sets for the West Coast over Network SouthEast's order for 41 Class 365 units, I wonder if they'd still be on the West Coast (Likely on Euston - West Midlands), or with East Coast/East Anglia?
I reckon that they wouldn’t have stayed on the WCML. Sixteen sets would be an appropriate number for the Norwich services, comparable to the fifteen class 90s and mark 3 rakes they received instead, but East Coast also has four diagrams right now for HSTs completely under the wires, so they could have put them to some use as well.
 
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