E-Tickets availability?

[Wallsendmag]

My money is on Merseyrail being the last hold out.

 

[fandroid]

Gotta pick you up with TfL. They are very much under some sort of DfT control until such time as they no longer need bailing out with government funding. Also, they are (or will soon start) trialing barcode readers at a select number of stations.

That trial will be interesting. I suspect that any partial implementation of barcode readers by TfL will cause as much confusion as the not very well publicised extensions and limits of contactless validity do

 

[kacper]

That trial will be interesting. I suspect that any partial implementation of barcode readers by TfL will cause as much confusion as the not very well publicised extensions and limits of contactless validity do

I’m assuming the first stations to get this would be Stratford for greater anglia, and Moorgate/Old Street for great northern

 

[Haywain]

I’m assuming the first stations to get this would be Stratford for greater anglia, and Moorgate/Old Street for great northern

I believe it's actually some stations on the Metropolitan line that are also served by Chiltern.

 

[Adam Williams]

I’m assuming the first stations to get this would be Stratford for greater anglia, and Moorgate/Old Street for great northern

The Ticketing and Revenue Update from the summer did suggest Stratford could be an initial station, though things may well have changed since then.

Painfully slow progress in any case, would it really have been that difficult to put something app-based in place as a stop-gap years ago? Or, I dunno, some of TTK's "boxes" that Northern were using?

If procurement is impossible, are we supposed to believe there's not a single software engineer at TfL that could've delivered something in-house here as an interim solution?

 

[Haywain]

would it really have been that difficult to put something app-based in place as a stop-gap years ago?

I did hear that TfL had been provided with a good number of tablets with appropriate apps loaded for reading barcodes, but then could get an agreement with the unions on who should be using them and how. Unfortunately, from what I have heard of industrial relations in London Underground that's sadly no surprise. It's a very different world to the main line railway in that respect.

 

[Adam Williams]

I did hear that TfL had been provided with a good number of tablets with appropriate apps loaded for reading barcodes, but then could get an agreement with the unions on who should be using them and how. Unfortunately, from what I have heard of industrial relations in London Underground that's sadly no surprise. It's a very different world to the main line railway in that respect.

A good reminder it's often not the technical obstacles that are the biggest barriers in place. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given the recent debacle about mainline staff struggling to get discounts added to their Oysters though, which seemed to have some sort of union dispute as a component.

I have my doubts as to whether fussing over this sort of thing (introduction of what you'd think would be fairly uncontroversial new processes) instead of pay/terms and conditions is something the public are likely to see in a positive light.

 

[Haywain]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given the recent debacle about mainline staff struggling to get RST discounts added to their Oysters though, which seemed to have some sort of union dispute as a component.

Indeed, that did seem to be of a similar nature.

I have my doubts as to whether fussing over this sort of thing (introduction of fairly uncontroversial new processes) instead of pay/terms and conditions is something the public are likely to see in a positive light.

I have been told in the past by union reps (even the ones I thought were a bit militant) that when they went on union training courses they were really surprised by the attitudes of underground reps about discussing anything with 'management'.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Ticketing and Revenue Update from the summer did suggest Stratford could be an initial station, though things may well have changed since then.

Painfully slow progress in any case, would it really have been that difficult to put something app-based in place as a stop-gap years ago? Or, I dunno, some of TTK's "boxes" that Northern were using?

If procurement is impossible, are we supposed to believe there's not a single software engineer at TfL that could've delivered something in-house here as an interim solution?

A better question is why it's taking so long to develop a solution for London Underground given Cubic have already implemented it on TOC gates.

 

[alistairlees]

The TfL revenue collection contract with cubic is the reason

 

[Edvid]

For anyone not already aware, it's on page 7 of TRU146, titled "Barcode Scanning" - not to be confused with the other "Barcode Scanning" topic! In relation to the aforementioned contract:

Work is continuing towards finding a solution that will allow integration of barcode scanning technology into our gates and report transactions to both the TfL Central System and to the NR back-office systems which manage the acceptance of barcode ticketing on NR.

1798 2324 Ticketing and Revenue Update Issue 146 Redacted.pdf

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[Edvid]

The Ticketing and Revenue Update from the summer did suggest Stratford could be an initial station, though things may well have changed since then.

It seems that way. From page 11 of TRU147:

Hopefully by our next edition of TRU, we may be able to provide an update on progress towards trialing handheld barcode reading devices to help bridge the gap until readers can be installed on gates at key stations.

References to any particular stations have been retracted, and it doesn't sound like a trial will be underway in two months' time.

 

[James H]

From Sadiq Khan this week:

Transport for London (TfL) can confirm that West Brompton is in scope as part of the project to install barcode readers at selected stations. The project is only at the design stage and TfL has ongoing discussions with the Rail Delivery Group (RDG) about the project. Please note that currently there is no funding from RDG for the project and there is no implementation date. TfL is also working closely with RDG to pilot the use of hand-held barcode scanning equipment on Elizabeth line services and stations.

Source: https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-ar...ayor/find-an-answer/west-brompton-station-2-0

 

[Snow1964]

From Sadiq Khan this week:


Source: https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-ar...ayor/find-an-answer/west-brompton-station-2-0

I think TfL has no problem with the principle of optical code readers at its gates at interchanges with rail, just wants somebody else to pay to install extra equipment and maintain them.

I think someone once said that tube stations serving mainline stations had close to 800 gates in total. If that is correct, and start adding others like Stratford, Vauxhall etc, could easily be good part of 1000 gates. That is way more than many rail operators have and is likely to run into millions of pounds to do.

 

[OscarH]

I think TfL has no problem with the principle of optical code readers at its gates at interchanges with rail, just wants somebody else to pay to install extra equipment and maintain them.

I think someone once said that tube stations serving mainline stations had close to 800 gates in total. If that is correct, and start adding others like Stratford, Vauxhall etc, could easily be good part of 1000 gates. That is way more than many rail operators have and is likely to run into millions of pounds to do.

Could reduce that number by following in GTR's footsteps and only putting readers on 1 gate per gateline which causes no bottlenecks at all

 

[Jan Mayen]

I believe GTR are fitting scanners on all gates. As an aside, is there any point I having a scanner at a station which doesn't have ticket gates? I'm aware they have contactless pads at all stations so KeyGo cards can be touched in and out.

 

[Alex365Dash]

As an aside, is there any point I having a scanner at a station which doesn't have ticket gates?

There is not - my local Southern station does not have ticket barriers and you can just walk out the station with an eTicket as opposed to KeyGo where I have to tap out.

It would provide more scan data in the eTVD, but there is no precedent for this and the only time standalone scanners have been used is in the presence of revenue protection blocks at a station (usually at large stations already with barcode gatelines) in order to look at more data on the ticket than the gateline does.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don’t get too excited.

 

[TUC]

Anything cross London and anything involving a Merseyrail operated station .

It does beg the question of the position for a passenger with an e-ticket for a longer journey who perfectly legitimately breaks their journey at a Merseyrail station?

 

[island]

It does beg the question of the position for a passenger with an e-ticket for a longer journey who perfectly legitimately breaks their journey at a Merseyrail station?

Due to the layout of the network there are not a great many journeys with Merseyrail "in the middle" as opposed to at the beginning or end, so this won't arise very often, but gateline staff can manually let passengers through as needed.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Could reduce that number by following in GTR's footsteps and only putting readers on 1 gate per gateline which causes no bottlenecks at all

Every ticket gate at a GTR station now (theoretically) has a barcode reader attached to it. That’s gate not gate line.

Though not every GTR station has ticket gates of course…

 

[James H]

Sighting of e-ticket scanning equipment on the Elizabeth line

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/UHn8d2zpukcuCxjS/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Spotted recently at London Paddington's Elisabeth Line station: a barcode scanner that checks Interrail ticket validity. It's the first one I see after extensive UK travels, I have not seen it elsewhere in the UK, where you always need to show the ticket / screen to gate staff to be let through. It does not automatically open a gate, but just allows staff to see if your ticket is valid when the green light flashes. (it's really incredible how many people are employed at UK stations... and also how helpful they generally are).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Sighting of e-ticket scanning equipment on the Elizabeth line

Interrail & Eurail Travelers | Spotted recently at London Paddington's Elisabeth Line station: a QR scanner that checks Interrail ticket validity | Facebook

Spotted recently at London Paddington's Elisabeth Line station: a QR scanner that checks Interrail ticket validity. It's the first one I see after extensive UK travels in recent years - you normally...

www.facebook.com

All TTK systems (such as this) can scan Interrail barcodes. This is part of a trial on TfL

 

[MrJeeves]

All TTK systems (such as this) can scan Interrail barcodes. This is part of a trial on TfL

Does TTK still have a long delay when scanning Interrail passes like it used to?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does TTK still have a long delay when scanning Interrail passes like it used to?

Not sure to be honest , I'm not that close to the system at the moment. The InterRal barcode is a different standard to the RSP barcodes.

 

[Edvid]

Every ticket gate at a GTR station now (theoretically) has a barcode reader attached to it. That’s gate not gate line.

That doesn't include the 20 stations shared with TfL, per the link in post #43. I presume the Cowcross Street (South) entrance at Farringdon is among those exceptions despite the GTR facilities there, but I've not checked it recently.

In the meantime, e-tickets are now available on c2c (the last non-TfL holdout in London unless I'm mistaken).

e-tickets now available to c2c customers​

10 January 2024 • 2 min read​

New and more flexible ways to travel as rail operator c2c adds e-tickets to its wide range of print, digital and smart ticketing options.

[10 January 2023] c2c has introduced e-ticketing to its wide range of ticket and payment options, meaning customers can now buy and present their rail tickets direct from a mobile phone or smart device.

e-tickets can be purchased from the c2c app and website – up to just 5 minutes prior to travel – saving customers’ time and the need to visit or queue at ticket offices and ticket machines to buy or collect tickets.

Commenting, c2c’s Commercial Director, Eleni Jordan, said: “Following months of work and rigorous testing, and a successful trial period during December, I am delighted to announce that we are now retailing e-tickets across our network.

“This is an exciting digital development for our customers, providing them with even greater choice and flexibility when planning and paying for their trips with c2c.”

Over 30,000 tickets were sold during the December trial period, and early signs indicate that the flexibility and instant availability of e-tickets means they are going to be extremely popular with customers and a great addition to the existing range of tickets.

In addition to Smartcard and ticket payment and collection options via ticket machines and ticket offices, customers planning and purchasing their travel through the c2c website or app can now choose to receive an e-ticket direct to their phone, app or email.

The following tickets and ticket types are now available as e-tickets:

• Peak and off-peak singles and returns
• c2c Online advance off-peak returns (40% discount if purchased 3 or more days before travel)
• Railcard discounts
• Purchasing e-tickets on behalf of other travellers

Eleni Jordan added, “As part of our ongoing commitment to making c2c a more attractive and accessible railway, the introduction of e-tickets will make buying and presenting tickets quicker and easier for our customers than ever before.

“We already offer a wide range of ticketing and payment options to best suit customers’ needs, and we are working hard to ensure that everyone can access the correct tickets and best value fares for their journey.”

TRU149 is now available to read, and with it TfL's latest position on integrating barcode readers with LU gatelines (see pages 15/16).

BARCODE TICKETING UPDATE

So as we reach the end of 2023, there is probably one topic that has consistently come up during the year and for which we frustratingly have little progress towards finding a solution for our colleagues on LU stations.

The topic is the acceptance of barcode format NR tickets, which during the year has seen significant growth, in part due to the success of the Elizabeth line but also due to a number of Train Operators (TOCs) pushing this format of ticket in preference to the more traditional magnetic stripe tickets. The latest TOC to throw its weight behind increasing its issue of barcode format tickets being C2C.

The fitting of barcode readers at some of our key stations that are served directly by NR trains doesn't sound too difficult, particularly as gates at many NR stations already have these fitted. Unfortunately, some things are never as straight forward as they may seem and through the last year there have been long debates about an acceptable solution that would allow the fitting of barcode readers to LU gates.

The TfL position is to have readers that are covered by the Revenue Collection Contract (RCC) and that are fully integrated into our system, whereas The Rail Delivery Group (RDG) who represent the TOCs and manage the NR barcode system and back-office, would prefer a system where their equipment is fitted to ours as a standalone piece of equipment, in a similar way to how TfL Oyster readers (RTDs) are fitted to NR TVMs. Unfortunately, and rather frustratingly this current impasse has hampered progress on finding even an interim solution to the problems gateline staff are encountering on a daily basis. Whilst there may be a desire to have a "Rolls Royce" solution in the long term, we really need something to be able to read and check barcode tickets at stations served by NR trains, without waiting for a final solution to be developed.

Having had a demonstration of a number of handheld reading devices in August, we had hoped that we would quickly be able to move towards obtaining some of these and testing them out at Stratford and possibly a couple of other stations. However, we are still awaiting confirmation of a potential start date from TfL's Tech & Data team, but as the year draws to a close there is a glimmer of hope that we may be able to trial such equipment at a couple of locations early in the New Year. Fingers crossed for some progress in 2024!!

Furthermore, the Proteus Project article on page 5 suggests there may be no further significant software or hardware changes for the remainder of the existing RCC (ending 31 August 2026). This implies e-ticketed cross-London transits, if and when they are officially permitted, will generally be reliant on handheld readers until at least Autumn 2026.

Thank you to @mattdickinson for the associated FoI requests, which may be more frequent now that TfL issue their TRU monthly instead of bimonthly.

 

[James H]

Someone really needs to get a political grip on the London e-tickets situation

Perhaps it could be made an issue in the mayoral election.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Someone really needs to get a political grip on the London e-tickets situation

Perhaps it could be made an issue in the mayoral election.

It is moving but very slowly and there is a massive hurdle on the horizon

 

[OneOfThe48]

That doesn't include the 20 stations shared with TfL, per the link in post #43. I presume the Cowcross Street (South) entrance at Farringdon is among those exceptions despite the GTR facilities there, but I've not checked it recently.

No it doesn't include the TfL stations, just the ones that they manage.

I suspect if GTR had any control over it they would have already installed them at their London stations too, with TfL being very slow and obstructive.

They should just give staff hand held readers or let them through the gates, get on with it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It is moving but very slowly and there is a massive hurdle on the horizon

Curious... is that massive hurdle on the horizon hinted at in the excerpt from the Tickeing & Revenue Update (TRU149) quoted upthread by Edvid?