E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

[Krokodil]

Your bias has been confirmed. That doesn't mean it's right.

It's true though that the railway wouldn't have introduced them if it didn't derive some benefit. It wasn't an altruistic decision for the benefit of passengers. The benefits to the railway being lower overheads and traceability - the effect of the latter we're now seeing in the prosecutions section.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's true though that the railway wouldn't have introduced them if it didn't derive some benefit. It wasn't an altruistic decision for the benefit of passengers. The benefits to the railway being lower overheads and traceability - the effect of the latter we're now seeing in the prosecutions section.

But I don't see that as a bad thing for the passenger. Indeed, I'd say it's win:win

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's true though that the railway wouldn't have introduced them if it didn't derive some benefit. It wasn't an altruistic decision for the benefit of passengers. The benefits to the railway being lower overheads and traceability - the effect of the latter we're now seeing in the prosecutions section.

It's both. Passengers were calling for it - we were well behind other countries.

But I don't see that as a bad thing for the passenger. Indeed, I'd say it's win:win

Indeed. Genuine win-wins are rare in business but e-ticketing (in all lines of business that sell tickets) is one. Customers like it and it saves the business money.

A small number of people don't like it, but these days when I see ticket inspections on long distance trains 80-90% of people seem to present e-tickets (you can tell by the beep!)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can't believe that we still have to say if you want a paper ticket you can print an eTicket , unlike the totally outdated mTicket it doesn't have to be shown on a mobile device. Just don't get me started on sTickets though.

 

[Deafdoggie]

A small number of people don't like it, but these days when I see ticket inspections on long distance trains 80-90% of people seem to present e-tickets (you can tell by the beep!)

And I suspect many of those without are Cross-London or Merseyside passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just don't get me started on sTickets though.

S-ticket is an awful format. Probably the most stupid idea the railway has had in a long time, or at least since the LNER fares increase trial. It's like it was designed by the people who rubbished my suggestion I posted some years ago for an e-ticket system remarkably like the one that actually happened because it wasn't secure enough (when in fact it is more secure than paper tickets because of the retrospective data analysis you can do to detect misuse).

E-tickets do not have any of the problems S-tickets have, bar the reliance on the mobile device if used in that way.

And I suspect many of those without are Cross-London or Merseyside passengers.

Certainly I now use an e-ticket whenever it's offered, which would be 100% of the time if it was offered 100% of the time (but a lot of my journeys are via London).

 

[Krokodil]

But I don't see that as a bad thing for the passenger. Indeed, I'd say it's win:win

Well it's a bad thing for fare-dodgers. Which in itself is a good thing for honest passengers who otherwise subsidise the freeloaders.

 

[alistairlees]

It's true though that the railway wouldn't have introduced them if it didn't derive some benefit. It wasn't an altruistic decision for the benefit of passengers. The benefits to the railway being lower overheads and traceability - the effect of the latter we're now seeing in the prosecutions section.

It was introduced because there was customer expectation of this sort of thing and because a group of us wanted to meet that expectation.

 

[trainophile]

I can't believe that we still have to say if you want a paper ticket you can print an eTicket , unlike the totally outdated mTicket it doesn't have to be shown on a mobile device. Just don't get me started on sTickets though.

I can't believe we still have to say that not everyone has access to a printer.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I can't believe we still have to say that not everyone has access to a printer.

Every town has a print shop or library. But you don't NEED to print an e-ticket, it is entirely optional.

 

[Wallsendmag]

S-ticket is an awful format. Probably the most stupid idea the railway has had in a long time, or at least since the LNER fares increase trial. It's like it was designed by the people who rubbished my suggestion I posted some years ago for an e-ticket system remarkably like the one that actually happened because it wasn't secure enough (when in fact it is more secure than paper tickets because of the retrospective data analysis you can do to detect misuse).

E-tickets do not have any of the problems S-tickets have, bar the reliance on the mobile device if used in that way.



Certainly I now use an e-ticket whenever it's offered, which would be 100% of the time if it was offered 100% of the time (but a lot of my journeys are via London).

Nothing to do with the Railway at all

I can't believe we still have to say that not everyone has access to a printer.

So between the circle of people that book online, the ones that don't have a Smartphone, that don't have a printer, and don't have any friend/relative/printshop or library nearby the intersection of those groups must be small than the crowd at a sunderland match

 

[trainophile]

I realise I'm losing this argument, but I was under the false assumption that a major reason for e-ticketing instead of paper ticketing was for the railways to do their bit to contribute towards saving the planet by felling fewer trees to make paper tickets. I now realise I was wrong, and it's perfectly acceptable to print your e-ticket out on anything you want to so long as you have the all important barcode! So really you're just passing the responsibility for those who still prefer an "actual" ticket rather than a virtual one onto the traveller. Right, got it now.

Why can't they put a barcode or whatever they're called now onto a CCST and allow these to be collected ToD?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't believe we still have to say that not everyone has access to a printer.

If you want to print out e-tickets, then a printer is a worthwhile investment, as e-tickets are used for all manner of things these days.

If you don't want to print out e-tickets (or anything else), as indeed the vast majority of users don't, you obviously don't need a printer.

I realise I'm losing this argument, but I was under the false assumption that a major reason for e-ticketing instead of paper ticketing was for the railways to do their bit to contribute towards saving the planet by felling fewer trees to make paper tickets. I now realise I was wrong, and it's perfectly acceptable to print your e-ticket out on anything you want to so long as you have the all important barcode! So really you're just passing the responsibility for those who still prefer an "actual" ticket rather than a virtual one onto the traveller. Right, got it now.

Importantly, it's possible to do that at a time that isn't just before the journey and doesn't require a special trip to a station with a booking office. Aside from on Merseyrail, most people don't live near a railway station with a booking office and would need at least an hour, sometimes more, out of their day to go and sort that.

This is why they're a good thing for customers - it removes the need to choose between wasting an hour or more going to the station in advance to book or collect a ticket or having to go 10-15 minutes earlier (or more if your station is known to have a bad queue) to make sure there's time to do that before travel.

While shouting about the environment is on-trend, that is not the reason they were implemented.

Why can't they put a barcode or whatever they're called now onto a CCST and allow these to be collected ToD?

I do think it should be possible to reprint e-tickets in that way - it's the one major thing I'd change about the present implementation, and indeed if I recall it was in my original pre-it-actually-happening proposal. However this facility would be used by a tiny number of people, because the vast majority prefer to - and already do - present them on their smartphone.

 

[trainophile]

I travel so frequently and always buy as soon as the cheap tickets become available, so I can collect CCST from the station for future journeys when arriving or departing from the current journey. No special trip needed. I appreciate that won't be the same for everyone.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Many new "TVM" don't print CCST, just a barcode.

 

[trainophile]

Many new "TVM" don't print CCST, just a barcode.

On bog roll?

 

[Deafdoggie]

On bog roll?

Barely that. Normally just plain paper roll.

 

[trainophile]

Barely that. Normally just plain paper roll.

Not something you can slip in the card slot in your wallet then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not something you can slip in the card slot in your wallet then.

No, but they fit fine in the notes part. If anything harder to lose. I've certainly dropped CCST on the floor before when it's somehow stuck itself to a debit card.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Not something you can slip in the card slot in your wallet then.

Why can't they put a barcode or whatever they're called now onto a CCST and allow these to be collected ToD?

Your problem isn't with e-tickets, it's with anything that isn't a piece of orange card.

 

[trainophile]

Do these barcoded tickets also have the ordinary journey details printed on them? If you have several, is it easy to sort out which is which?

Your problem isn't with e-tickets, it's with anything that isn't a piece of orange card.

Lol I'm an old timer and proud of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do these barcoded tickets also have the ordinary journey details printed on them?

Yes. So do e-tickets, you don't have to train your brain to scan barcodes.

If you have several, is it easy to sort out which is which?

Yes.

 

[Haywain]

I was under the false assumption that a major reason for e-ticketing instead of paper ticketing was for the railways to do their bit to contribute towards saving the planet by felling fewer trees to make paper tickets.

And that succeeds because so few people feel the need to print out those eTickets.

 

[DelW]

Do these barcoded tickets also have the ordinary journey details printed on them? If you have several, is it easy to sort out which is which?

One of my earliest experiences of using barcoded tickets was with walk-up immediate travel tickets bought from a station booking office. It just happened that I bought them from a station that issued on paper roll not mag-stripe CCST (which is what my local station still does).

They have similar printed details to those on CCST, though they do seem unnecessarily large, with quite a lot of unused space. However, if folded into thirds they're a bit smaller than cardboard tickets so will then fit a ticket wallet.

They do have an advantage if you like keeping tickets as a record of your travels - they never get swallowed by a gateline reader.

 

[AlbertBeale]

A small percentage of people finding the opposite doesn't make the statement wrong in general terms.

What I was getting at is that this sort of statement ought to be "I find such-and-such more convenient", or "A majority of people find...", etc. Not, It is more convenient. Convenience is subjective and varies for different people. It's not an absolute. But I find some people on this forum make categorical blanket statements and refuse to believe that what they experience isn't what everyone experiences, suggesting that people are somehow objectively wrong if they experience the world differently and hence have different preferences.

 

[AlterEgo]

How do businesses that purchase tickets for their employees get around this? One big drawback for me is having to be the owner of the phone on which the ticket is purchased

You don't need to be the owner of the phone on which it is purchased. You don't even need to purchase an e-ticket on a phone. You can just click on the email and the Wallet pass or PDF will appear. You don't seem to be know much about e-tickets or have any experience of them yet constantly argue against them.

You can't buy e-tickets for your elderly relatives to go on their holidays

Yes you can. My parents use them.

non-smartphone owning young teenagers

Nearly all teenagers have a smartphone.

to go to the match in the next city on a Saturday.

Match tickets are now e-ticket only for many venues!

Interesting that someone upthread has confirmed my feelings that e-tickets are mainly for the benefit of the railways. We're going down the road of "your call is important to us" call centres, and not all progress is for the better experience of the user.

Why do the vast majority of passengers prefer them then?

 

[Haywain]

Match tickets are now e-ticket only for many venues!

Not for away supporters at Premier League matches!

 

[trainophile]

(1) You don't need to be the owner of the phone on which it is purchased. You don't even need to purchase an e-ticket on a phone. You can just click on the email and the Wallet pass or PDF will appear. You don't seem to be know much about e-tickets or have any experience of them yet constantly argue against them.


(2) Yes you can. My parents use them.


(3) Nearly all teenagers have a smartphone.


(4) Match tickets are now e-ticket only for many venues!


(5) Why do the vast majority of passengers prefer them then?

Don't know how to reply to individual points so I've numbered them...

(1) I do use e-tickets for days out when I'm away somewhere and will only have a small bag to carry so will have a spare hand for the barriers. Typically Llandudno to Colwyn Bay and Scarborough to Bridlington, where barriers aren't an issue anyway apart from C/Bay. I can buy these in my hotel room when I've woken up, checked the weather and decided what to do that day, to save queueing at the station. I've been using the TPE website for those as I have their app and the tickets go straight in there so it's easy. I must admit to being unnecessarily dopey about Trainsplit's system, I was worried they would disappear into a black hole, but yes the Apple wallet is the answer to that so I will try it out next time

(2) Do you print them off for your parents? Or do they print them themselves? Or are they confident enough to book and use their own on their phones? Genuinely interested, assuming your parents aren't about 50 or younger!

(3) And a bank account to buy their own tickets?

(4) Already answered above.

(5) I'll concede that a lot of passengers use them, but we don't know whether they prefer them, or just think it's the only option these days. I'm sure younger folk who probably used computers from school age and wouldn't know any different are absolutely fine with them, it's second nature, but not everyone (especially older people) works with a computer day to day, or is confident enough to rely on technology for something with the potential pitfalls of showing a rail ticket to a RPI.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(2) Do you print them off for your parents? Or do they print them themselves? Or are they confident enough to book and use their own on their phones? Genuinely interested, assuming your parents aren't about 50 or younger!

(3) And a bank account to buy their own tickets?

These might be true of the grandparents of us middle aged people.

It isn't true of our parents. They're the "silver surfer" generation, they know how to use computers and smartphones for basic daily purposes and they absolutely have bank accounts. Who doesn't have a bank account in 2024? You can't collect your pension in cash any more.

Are you perhaps yourself towards the upper end of middle age and thus thinking of a generation that, sadly, is mostly no longer with us?

But let's say you're over 50 yourself and are lucky enough to still have grandparents aged well over 100 who don't have a bank account and pay their rent in cash (does any landlord accept cash now?) - you can indeed, as you say, print it out for them.

 

[AlterEgo]

(2) Do you print them off for your parents? Or do they print them themselves? Or are they confident enough to book and use their own on their phones? Genuinely interested, assuming your parents aren't about 50 or younger!

My parents are in their 70s. They show them on their phone, and book them themselves. On occasion where I have had to book tickets (like Eurostar), I have just emailed them the tickets or sent the Wallet passes on WhatsApp.

Also I'm chuckling at the idea that "about 50" seems to be the cut off for an elderly person. My parents aren't what I'd call elderly, which has connotations of slowness and infirmity, they're just old. Most people in their 70s now can use computers, smart phones, etickets, and so on. Eticketing is the only medium available for a lot of things now.

(3) And a bank account to buy their own tickets?

This point was addressing the transferability of etickets which you said wasn't possible. Young teenagers don't have their own money; they don't buy their own tickets. In any case, yes, most 11-17 year olds have their own bank account; banks have products, with debit cards, specifically for these young people. I am 37, and had a bank card when I was 12 or 13. This was common even in the late 1990s.

There are also prepaid cards now which hold a child's allowance. Kids are using bank cards like everyone else.

(5) I'll concede that a lot of passengers use them, but we don't know whether they prefer them, or just think it's the only option these days. I'm sure younger folk who probably used computers from school age and wouldn't know any different are absolutely fine with them, it's second nature, but not everyone (especially older people) works with a computer day to day, or is confident enough to rely on technology for something with the potential pitfalls of showing a rail ticket to a RPI.

Yes, it's not for everyone, but hearing the consistent misconceptions about what they are and what you can do with them is frustrating.

They are the most popular ticket medium for a reason; most passengers overwhelmingly prefer them. The railway was late in introducing them, and passengers consistently asked for them, especially after the advent of apps like Wallet. That etickets also have benefits for train companies only hastened their rollout once the technology was adopted.