E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

[Wallsendmag]

I rather like Scotrail’s system. You can buy a ticket on the app and then transfer it to their ITSO Smartcard (and various other Scottish smart cards) using the phone’s NFC facility. Then you have the ticket on something that can’t go flat. You can use the app to read back the card’s contents as well. I used this when I was last in Glasgow. Didn’t have access to a printer as a backup.I made a second trip where I pressed the wrong button on the app and was forced to pick the ticket up at a machine. That involved quite a wait in the queue. Unfortunately doesn’t work on all flows and the system seems to be isolated to Scotland.

Don't get me started on ScotRail's ticketing

 

[jthjth]

Don't get me started on ScotRail's ticketing

As a customer it works very well for me.

 

[Adam Williams]

Don't get me started on ScotRail's ticketing

It's the first time I've heard something positive about it!

 

[jthjth]

It's the first time I've heard something positive about it!

I remember some earlier criticism about their m-ticket solution. However this method allows me to purchase my ticket in the comfort of my accommodation, move it to my Glasgow Subway card (you can use a Scotrail card) and toddle off to the station. Apparently the ticket can also be transferred to the card by the barrier reader, but it stated you might have to wait up to two hours for it to become available. (Seems a bit slow in the modern world.) What’s not to like?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I remember some earlier criticism about their m-ticket solution. However this method allows me to purchase my ticket in the comfort of my accommodation, move it to my Glasgow Subway card (you can use a Scotrail card) and toddle off to the station. Apparently the ticket can also be transferred to the card by the barrier reader, but it stated you might have to wait up to two hours for it to become available. (Seems a bit slow in the modern world.) What’s not to like?

Smartcards are perfect for seasons but don’t work so well for normal travel tickets. Where do you see your train time and reservation?

 

[HarryF]

Smartcards are perfect for seasons but don’t work so well for normal travel tickets. Where do you see your train time and reservation?

Agreed, I know I’m off topic but why oh why do ScotRail insist on m-tickets? Even Southeastern do e-tickets now.

 

[jthjth]

Smartcards are perfect for seasons but don’t work so well for normal travel tickets. Where do you see your train time and reservation?

On the phone. The Smartcard holding the ticket removes the problem of the phone going flat. I also prefer presenting a card rather my phone at the barriers.

 

[Haywain]

On the phone. The Smartcard holding the ticket removes the problem of the phone going flat. I also prefer presenting a card rather my phone at the barriers.

So the solution to your phone going flat is keeping the crucial information on your phone? That isn't logical.

 

[jthjth]

So the solution to your phone going flat is keeping the crucial information on your phone? That isn't logical.

Nope - it’s insurance against getting a threat of prosecution/PF for not having a valid ticket. if you genuinely have a dodgy phone battery it is most likely to let you down during an on train inspection, especially if you’ve been using the phone during the journey. By then you are in the reserved seat on the booked train.

 

[Haywain]

Nope - it’s insurance against getting a threat of prosecution/PF for not having a valid ticket. if you genuinely have a dodgy phone battery it is most likely to let you down during an on train inspection, especially if you’ve been using the phone during the journey. By then you are in the reserved seat on the booked train.

But if you need to show or access your reservation details and they are on your phone how will that work?

 

[jthjth]

But if you need to show or access your reservation details and they are on your phone how will that work?

Presumably the inspector can read it from the Smartcard.

 

[Haywain]

Presumably the inspector can read it from the Smartcard.

Can you read the details from the smartcard?

 

[PaulJ]

It's funny how the phone battery is flat at the point of ticket inspection, but miraculously works again for Facetime calls and playing loud music.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Presumably the inspector can read it from the Smartcard.

No times and reservations can't be applied to Smartcards

Agreed, I know I’m off topic but why oh why do ScotRail insist on m-tickets? Even Southeastern do e-tickets now.

They even use the mTicket data in RCS to feed their new eTicket TVM

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely just a system where you give the ticket inspector your name and postcode and they bring up your ticket details on their device and mark it as scanned.

The main flaw with that is that a certain Third Party Retailer inserts bookings into the TOD database with the name set to A CUSTOMER or I CUSTOMER and no postcode information.

 

[AM9]

Thing is, I can see it getting to a stage where paper tickets just aren't available any longer. It's increasingly difficult to manage normal life without a smart phone and I think that will increasingly be the case.

Judging by all the whinging in this thread, it's very difficult with a smartphone when it comes to rail tickets! That's why I intend to keep using (from machines or self-print) paper tickets, - no batteries or signal needed whilst travelling.

 

[Haywain]

it's very difficult with a smartphone when it comes to rail tickets

It isn't, it's really easy. It's just that some people manage to make things difficult.

 

[AM9]

It isn't, it's really easy. It's just that some people manage to make things difficult.

I was responding the @Skiddaw 's claim that "it's increasingly difficult to manage normal life without a smartphone". That of course depends on what 'normal life' is. Those insisting on carrying tickets on a smartphone yet failing to ensure that their phone is adequately charged or reliable enough to depend on, continue to blame the industry for their own errors. So far, there is no absolute need for a traveller to even own a phone to travel by rail.

 

[jthjth]

No times and reservations can't be applied to Smartcards


They even use the mTicket data in RCS to feed their new eTicket TVM

Having just had a quick read of the ITSO specification it looks as though a card can hold reservation information (though I confess that the documentation is somewhat opaque to the casual reader.) So is it a local implementation issue that prevents this information being loaded?

Before skeptics claim that flat batteries aren’t a thing, I’ve travelled with a colleague whose phone suddenly died at the airport gate. Happily airlines are able to look up the boarding pass using a passport as identification. Had this been on a train the outcome could have been different.

 

[AM9]

Having just had a quick read of the ITSO specification it looks as though a card can hold reservation information (though I confess that the documentation is somewhat opaque to the casual reader.) So is it a local implementation issue that prevents this information being loaded?

Before skeptics claim that flat batteries aren’t a thing, I’ve travelled with a colleague whose phone suddenly died at the airport gate. Happily airlines are able to look up the boarding pass using a passport as identification. Had this been on a train the outcome could have been different.

So it would be alright if every rail traveller who insists in using their mobile as the sole carrier of their ticket must carry their passport? If they have one of course!
What happens with air travel is irrelevant to train travel, it is impossible to board a plane without being checked, planes are passenger numbers limited and of course continuously manned. It's possible to travel for hours by train without being checked by a single person.

 

[jthjth]

So it would be alright if every rail traveller who insists in using their mobile as the sole carrier of their ticket must carry their passport? If they have one of course!
What happens with air travel is irrelevant to train travel, it is impossible to board a plane without being checked, planes are passenger numbers limited and of course continuously manned. It's possible to travel for hours by train without being checked by a single person.

That’s far from what I’m suggesting. I was just pointing out that sudden battery failure is a thing, even if the majority of such claims are attempts at fare evasion.

What I am suggesting is the option of being able to copy your ticket to a non volatile medium, ie a smartcard, from your phone. Clearly it can be done, as I’ve done it in Scotland. There’s some doubt as to whether reservation information can be so copied, but that is not insurmountable. ITSO cards appear to have fields for reservation details, and also the booking reference.

 

[jon0844]

Judging by all the whinging in this thread, it's very difficult with a smartphone when it comes to rail tickets! That's why I intend to keep using (from machines or self-print) paper tickets, - no batteries or signal needed whilst travelling.

It isn't really difficult. Most people with a 'dead phone' are just blagging it.

Printing a code as a backup is a wise move though, and something I always seek to do with theatre/concert/cinema tickets, boarding cards etc.

 

[jthjth]

It isn't really difficult. Most people with a 'dead phone' are just blagging it.

Printing a code as a backup is a wise move though, and something I always seek to do with theatre/concert/cinema tickets, boarding cards etc.

But as we know, a booking reference is, in many cases, not acceptable as a substitute for a rail ticket. Those in genuine distress with their phone should not be penalised because of other fare evaders.

 

[krus_aragon]

"Technology can be unpredictable", yes, but a battery running out just like that, no. Even the most thirsty phone will sit there on standby from charged a couple of days, and the charge state is easily checked.

Monitoring state of charge on lithium batteries is tricky: looking at the current cell voltage isn't very useful, as the measurement is quite constant over a discharge until it drops off a cliff. This is what happens if you see a charge indicator plummet from 50% to 1% in a matter of seconds. An aging battery, or a replacement that isn't an identical match for the original, are common causes of this.

The only reasonably accurate method of estimating remaining charge is to monitor the amount of current drawn while charging, to work out how much power was stored, and then monitor current/power drawn whilst unplugged. Even this is based on working assumptions about how well the battery is storing its charge.

(Chapter and verse on this can be found at https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-903-how-to-measure-state-of-charge , among other places.)

Even then, calculations of remaining battery time are based on assumptions of how much current you'll be drawing in the future. High-end phones are doing all sorts of datalogging to try to predict this on the basis of past usage: you can often find graphs of this in settings pages. But all you need is a rogue app demanding a lot of cellular/wifi access, or monopolising the CPU, to increase the currrent draw and chop that battery life down.


There are several occasions that I've found my phone feeling a bit warmer than usual in my pocket, because I've accidentally turned on the camera function. Having run the camera module and display for half an hour or so, the battery life has lost a fair few percentage points.

The net result of this is that I am the kind of person that takes printed-out copies of whatever e-tickets I've got, not just railway tickets.

 

[AM9]

Monitoring state of charge on lithium batteries is tricky: looking at the current cell voltage isn't very useful, as the measurement is quite constant over a discharge until it drops off a cliff. This is what happens if you see a charge indicator plummet from 50% to 1% in a matter of seconds. An aging battery, or a replacement that isn't an identical match for the original, are common causes of this.

The only reasonably accurate method of estimating remaining charge is to monitor the amount of current drawn while charging, to work out how much power was stored, and then monitor current/power drawn whilst unplugged. Even this is based on working assumptions about how well the battery is storing its charge.

(Chapter and verse on this can be found at https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-903-how-to-measure-state-of-charge , among other places.)

Even then, calculations of remaining battery time are based on assumptions of how much current you'll be drawing in the future. High-end phones are doing all sorts of datalogging to try to predict this on the basis of past usage: you can often find graphs of this in settings pages. But all you need is a rogue app demanding a lot of cellular/wifi access, or monopolising the CPU, to increase the currrent draw and chop that battery life down.


There are several occasions that I've found my phone feeling a bit warmer than usual in my pocket, because I've accidentally turned on the camera function. Having run the camera module and display for half an hour or so, the battery life has lost a fair few percentage points.

The net result of this is that I am the kind of person that takes printed-out copies of whatever e-tickets I've got, not just railway tickets.

Likewise, I regard a mobile for any tickets and other documents that I may need access to at any time as high risk, therefore wherever practicable, carry printed copies. Of course there is the random failure of any equipment that can potentially let you down, (including the human bearer that can forget or lose paper tickets, but a phone that is vulnerable to the cliff-edge dropout that you describe above is likely to be used for many things and its owner will already be aware of its foibles. Therefore to risk being unable to present a legally required travel document when asked is foolhardy and does not justify the rest of the world bending over backwards to accommodate such casual behaviour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it would be alright if every rail traveller who insists in using their mobile as the sole carrier of their ticket must carry their passport? If they have one of course!

The vast majority of adults carry a driving licence, to the extent that it's a de facto ID card. You're not required to* while driving in the UK but it does make life a whole lot easier if you do (plus insurance certificate in the car) as you can show on the spot if requested rather than faffing with a "producer". A significant number of those who don't carry a Railcard, though this is increasingly on the phone those who are concerned can opt for a plastic one.

* Technically it's illegal not to carry it when driving but producing it within 7 days at a police station of your choice is a statutory defence to the offence.

 

[richw]

Technology can be unpredictable", yes, but a battery running out just like that, no. Even the most thirsty phone will sit there on standby from charged a couple of days, and the charge state is easily checked.

My aging phone has a deteriorated battery. It definitely cant sit on standby for days. Put it in my pocket the other day at 60%, 5 hours later it was on 5% without being touched.

Knowing it’s knackered battery, I’ve decided mobile tickets aren’t viable for me, and I’ve always got my battery pack with me which can do 6 full charges from dead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My aging phone has a deteriorated battery. It definitely cant sit on standby for days. Put it in my pocket the other day at 60%, 5 hours later it was on 5% without being touched.

Knowing it’s knackered battery, I’ve decided mobile tickets aren’t viable for me, and I’ve always got my battery pack with me which can do 6 full charges from dead.

Can't imagine why I wouldn't replace the phone. If money is tight you can pick up used ones for next to nothing. Or take it to a phone shop for a new battery at a fraction of the cost of a new phone.

 

[richw]

Can't imagine why I wouldn't replace the phone. If money is tight you can pick up used ones for next to nothing. Or take it to a phone shop for a new battery at a fraction of the cost of a new phone.

Mainly because it suits my needs, and with a battery pack in my bag it’s quite adequate.
I’m not into replacing things unless it’s totally broken. From charge to dead is about 8-9 hours on standby which doesn’t warrant writing it off.

 

[AM9]

The vast majority of adults carry a driving licence, to the extent that it's a de facto ID card. You're not required to* while driving in the UK but it does make life a whole lot easier if you do (plus insurance certificate in the car) as you can show on the spot if requested rather than faffing with a "producer". A significant number of those who don't carry a Railcard, though this is increasingly on the phone those who are concerned can opt for a plastic one.

* Technically it's illegal not to carry it when driving but producing it within 7 days at a police station of your choice is a statutory defence to the offence.

About 75% of adults over 17 years old in the UK carry active driving licences. of the over 65s, nearly 3.5m do not have smartphones, which I would suggest largely maps on to the 25% that don't have a driving licence. Unless provided free of charge, I doubt that either can be regarded as mandatory for any essential travel.