E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

[Bletchleyite]

Mainly because it suits my needs, and with a battery pack in my bag it’s quite adequate.
I’m not into replacing things unless it’s totally broken. From charge to dead is about 8-9 hours on standby which doesn’t warrant writing it off.

That's broken. Any phone that can't do 24 hours on standby without a call being made or the screen being switched on isn't fit for purpose. If you want to keep the phone a battery replacement is cheap at one of those phone shops, or learn to DIY it and buy a kit.

If people really are putting up with this sort of unfit for purpose phone I'm not surprised they don't like e-tickets. As I said to my parents (and they eventually understood) a smartphone is a very powerful tool, but to get the best from it you really need a decent one or it'll be frustrating and unreliable. That doesn't mean you need an iPhone 15 Pro (great phone it is), but you really don't want to compromise on battery life, speed or capacity, or you'll hate it and won't benefit from the many conveniences the devices offer. There are lots of good budget smartphones like Motorola's offering, or you can buy a used one for next to nothing from one of those people who just replaces them every 2 years even if it isn't necessary.

About 75% of adults over 17 years old in the UK carry active driving licences. of the over 65s, nearly 3.5m do not have smartphones, which I would suggest largely maps on to the 25% that don't have a driving licence. Unless provided free of charge, I doubt that either can be regarded as mandatory for any essential travel.

A railway season ticket photocard can be obtained free of charge from any booking office, so there's an option for everyone.

In any case we aren't talking of it being mandatory, we're talking of an optional additional convenience (ticket reprints) for those choosing to carry official ID. You could always choose not to, and to accept a Penalty Fare or £100 settlement should you fail to be able to show your ticket.

 

[AM9]

That's broken. Any phone that can't do 24 hours on standby without a call being made or the screen being switched on isn't fit for purpose. If you want to keep the phone a battery replacement is cheap at one of those phone shops, or learn to DIY it and buy a kit.

If people really are putting up with this sort of unfit for purpose phone I'm not surprised they don't like e-tickets. As I said to my parents (and they eventually understood) a smartphone is a very powerful tool, but to get the best from it you really need a decent one or it'll be frustrating and unreliable. That doesn't mean you need an iPhone 15 Pro (great phone it is), but you really don't want to compromise on battery life, speed or capacity, or you'll hate it and won't benefit from the many conveniences the devices offer. There are lots of good budget smartphones like Motorola's offering, or you can buy a used one for next to nothing from one of those people who just replaces them every 2 years even if it isn't necessary.

I agree with you here, - as I have said and/or implied many times, those who take the risk with substandard phones deserve to pay the cost when their unfit device lets them down, or they themselves misuse it. It is pathetic to expect somebody else to excuse them or carry equipment* that can save them the penalties.

* as in a portable charger which they themselves should have anyway.

 

[Adam Williams]

I agree with you here, - as I have said and/or implied many times, those who take the risk with substandard phones deserve to pay the cost when their unfit device lets them down, or they themselves misuse it. It is pathetic to expect somebody else to excuse them or carry equipment* that can save them the penalties.

* as in a portable charger which they themselves should have anyway.

I don't think passengers should necessarily expect  this provision to be there, but I'd also argue that @jamiearmley's way of working is an example of best practice (which should be commended) that ideally all frontline staff with ticket inspection responsibilities would also consider. I always carry a portable charger but I'd still feel reassured if I knew that the staff on my usual route did this.

The railway benefits from passengers using E-Tickets in many ways - if we can make the experience of using them more pleasant and less stressful then we really should IMO.

 

[Richardr]

If one ignores phones with knackered batteries, every phone I have had in the past few years has had a low mode mode or similar that kicks in if the battery is low. Seeing that, and relying on a ticket on the phone would see me not using the phone except for necessities such as showing a ticket.

 

[jon0844]

I'd just get used to carrying a power bank. While I prefer a fast-charge 12,000mAh pack, you can get by with a very small 2,500-5,000mAh one for emergencies (i.e. not wanting to do a full charge). They're tiny and lightweight (but do buy a reputable brand, as some very cheap ones may not have the advertised capacity).

My current phone has a 5,600mAh battery, but if you could add 10-20% that's probably good for situations where the battery drains unexpectedly (some examples given above).

 

[CyrusWuff]

Having just had a quick read of the ITSO specification it looks as though a card can hold reservation information (though I confess that the documentation is somewhat opaque to the casual reader.) So is it a local implementation issue that prevents this information being loaded?

What the specs say and what TIS suppliers, retailers, RDG, gate/validation equipment suppliers and TOCs have implemented don't necessarily match!

The same spec also says you can encode the actual ticket type and restriction code, rather than a vague Peak/Off-Peak Single/Return/Carnet/Season.

Can guarantee nobody actually does so though!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Nobody in the industry is talking about making having a smart device mandatory. I cant believe how many people don’t see the possibilities of eTickets where you can print your ticket, just like you do with your boarding card when you go on holiday. And for info you don’t get a copy of your ticket from your phone to a Smartcard you either have a mTickets in your phone or you have a Smartcard ticket to load via your phone.

 

[cmovcc]

iphones have the option to allow contactless payments/travel passes to work even when the battery won't allow the phone to be turned on

"express mode"

Express Cards with power reserve

If iOS isn’t in use because iPhone needs to be charged, there may still be enough power in the battery to support Express Card transactions.

support.apple.com

no reason train company apps couldn't implement this

 

[jon0844]

That keeps the NFC function active for a time. Maybe it is possible to keep a smartcard ticket active, but certainly not an e-ticket.

 

[cmovcc]

bytes are bytes

I've done extensive work with NFC (to the point of being granted patents)

there's no reason this couldn't work (other than the usual rail industry being stuck 20 years in the past)

 

[jon0844]

You could power the NFC hardware in a phone even when switched off (as Apple allows, and frankly Android could too - unless there are patent issues) but an e-ticket is a visible Aztec code and that means keeping the phone powered up.

Now there are of course a number of phones with secondary e-ink displays on the rear (not that I think any are sold here) so you could potentially have that display a code that will remain visible even with no power.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is all gross overkill when a simple reprint based on giving some of the key information about the ticket could be offered if the railway put its mind to it.

 

[Adam Williams]

bytes are bytes

I've done extensive work with NFC (to the point of being granted patents)

there's no reason this couldn't work (other than the usual rail industry being stuck 20 years in the past)

I assume you're suggesting Apple's proprietary VAS thing (or I guess Smart-Tap in Android land). I think this would work - with the payload being the same [as, or a more efficient encoding of what] currently exists in the Aztec barcodes, but as an Android user without any knowledge of this stuff, how good is the iOS Express Cards with Power Reserve feature at allowing the user to select specific passes and telling them what they're picking? If I have 4 tickets, for a return journey, can I pick the right one based on the point I've gotten to in my journey?

It's also worth noting that the barcode only encodes some of the ticket information in a machine-readable way, it's not impossible for there to be more information on the PDF or Wallet Pass than is encoded in the barcode.

Edit: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/walletpasses/pass/nfc would suggest that there's a limit to the payload size of just 64 bytes, is that correct? If so, this seems unworkable.

 

[cmovcc]

> but an e-ticket is a visible Aztec code and that means keeping the phone powered up

the aztec code is one mechanism of transmitting the approx 100 bytes that encodes the ticket information in a machine readable state, suitable for optical readers to decode

if you have radio equipment (NFC) on both ends you can transmit the exact same information using radio waves instead of optically

the various shoddy TOC apps already support adding e-tickets to apple wallet, and the apple API allows a pass to have both a visible and NFC component

adding it should be straightforward, even for train companies

 

[freddie1729]

Nobody in the industry is talking about making having a smart device mandatory. I cant believe how many people don’t see the possibilities of eTickets where you can print your ticket, just like you do with your boarding card when you go on holiday. And for info you don’t get a copy of your ticket from your phone to a Smartcard you either have a mTickets in your phone or you have a Smartcard ticket to load via your phone.

How come they made it so that the 26-30 Railcard is only available on a mobile device? That implies that they are looking to make everything digital-only eventually.

 

[jon0844]

> but an e-ticket is a visible Aztec code and that means keeping the phone powered up

the aztec code is one mechanism of transmitting the approx 100 bytes that encodes the ticket information in a machine readable state, suitable for optical readers to decode

if you have radio equipment (NFC) on both ends you can transmit the exact same information using radio waves instead of optically

the various shoddy TOC apps already support adding e-tickets to apple wallet, and the apple API allows a pass to have both a visible and NFC component

adding it should be straightforward, even for train companies

There are loads of hurdles for the railway, starting at the DfT and working down - as well the testing that will be required to ensure interoperability, as well as security validation. Plus the cost. Who pays?

It really does seem easier to get people to carry a power bank or print their code for peace of mind.

What about a TVM with a barcode reader? What if you could scan the code on a machine and it prints a code for you?

 

[Benjwri]

Anyone who can connect to a printer can do that at home of course. There might be scope to add this as an extra function to a TVM, but I think I'd charge £1 or so to discourage people from using it if they have an alternative. However, the question remains, how do you know your ticket details if your phone has died?

Although having a printer shouldn’t be taken as a given. They’re expensive things that many have little use for these days. I certainly don’t have one.

 

[trainophile]

Although having a printer shouldn’t be taken as a given. They’re expensive things that many have little use for these days. I certainly don’t have one.

Likewise. My replacement MacBook last year isn't compatible with my printer, I haven't worked out how to print via a phone, if indeed that is even possible. I'm not buying a new printer as I have no other use for one, so will stick with paper tickets as long as they are an option.

If people are being encouraged to print off their e-tickets doesn't that defeat the whole object?

 

[Pushpit]

I believe it is wrong that someone who has paid their fare, is not defrauding the railway, should get into trouble over IT fails on gizmos or TVMs, just as a matter of principle. One solution is to give people the option, when buying a ticket online, to tick a box to make the ticket personal to the purchaser, not transferable, and linked to a particular mobile phone number. So in that scenario, where there is no loss of revenue to the TOC, the RPI can readily check via an ID check that everything is probably OK to thus waive the need for action (I'm aware this isn't fool proof) and if a Penalty Fare or replacement ticket is purchased, the traveller can get a full refund once the bona fides can be checked.

 

[edwin_m]

If people are being encouraged to print off their e-tickets doesn't that defeat the whole object?

No. An e-ticket is uniquely identifiable against a central database, and therefore much more secure against fraud. It also allows those who are content to have their ticket on their phone, and print at home/office if they want to, to receive their tickets at their leisure without having to queue for ticket on departure. My employer's business ticket issuer also charges an extra fee for ticket on departure.

I agree there should still be an option available for those with no smartphone, which I think would continue to be ticket on departure against a booking reference, but the actual ticket will presumably be barcoded in future. Having everything as barcode or smartcard would also allow operators to dispense with the mechanisms that handle cardboard tickets at barriers.

 

[trainophile]

No. An e-ticket is uniquely identifiable against a central database, and therefore much more secure against fraud. It also allows those who are content to have their ticket on their phone, and print at home/office if they want to, to receive their tickets at their leisure without having to queue for ticket on departure. My employer's business ticket issuer also charges an extra fee for ticket on departure.

I agree there should still be an option available for those with no smartphone, which I think would continue to be ticket on departure against a booking reference, but the actual ticket will presumably be barcoded in future. Having everything as barcode or smartcard would also allow operators to dispense with the mechanisms that handle cardboard tickets at barriers.

Wouldn't that involve a massive programme of replacement barrier readers, if all that is available is the "bog roll" type of paper ticket? Or would the bog roll tickets have a barcode that is readable with the existing equipment?

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't that involve a massive programme of replacement barrier readers, if all that is available is the "bog roll" type of paper ticket? Or would the bog roll tickets have a barcode that is readable with the existing equipment?

All barriers have optical readers or will have within a few years (subject to TfL sorting their situation) The bog roll tickets have barcodes now I believe. The credit card sized tickets could carry a barcode, or could be replaced by bog roll.

Once that has happened, and season tickets are issued as smartcards, operators would no longer have to maintain the card ticket reader mechanisms and new or replacement barriers could omit them.

 

[Haywain]

They’re expensive things that many have little use for these days.

Expensive? You can buy a wireless inkjet printer for under £35.

 

[trainophile]

Expensive? You can buy a wireless inkjet printer for under £35.

And another £35 for an ink cartridge. Also it takes up space, which a lot of people don't have much of these days.

 

[Haywain]

And another £35 for an ink cartridge.

No, it includes the ink.

If people are being encouraged to print off their e-tickets doesn't that defeat the whole object?

The only people being encouraged to print e-tickets are those who seem terrified at the prospect of their phone battery not lasting, or who don’t carry a smartphone.

 

[OscarH]

Or would the bog roll tickets have a barcode that is readable with the existing equipment?

The barcodes on any version of bog roll ticket, e-ticket and even horrible m- and s-tickets are all the same, so there's no changes needed for existing barcode equipment

 

[jon0844]

Although having a printer shouldn’t be taken as a given. They’re expensive things that many have little use for these days. I certainly don’t have one.

You can get Bluetooth battery powered printers (designed more for kids wanting to print stickers or mini banners) for about £20 or less. They print on till roll and are ideal for tickets, boarding cards etc.

But I'm fine with a power bank or charger in my bag/pocket (which in reality I never need as I'm usually home after 10-12 hours with over 50% left).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can get Bluetooth battery powered printers (designed more for kids wanting to print stickers or mini banners) for about £20 or less. They print on till roll and are ideal for tickets, boarding cards etc.

Probably of limited use because while the railway's e-tickets are "till roll sized" format, most other boarding cards, printable e-tickets etc assume A4. If you just want to print a load of railway e-tickets it's a good idea, though.

 

[jon0844]

Probably of limited use because while the railway's e-tickets are "till roll sized" format, most other boarding cards, printable e-tickets etc assume A4. If you just want to print a load of railway e-tickets it's a good idea, though.

I don't see the need for one personally, but anyone who feels particularly uncomfortable relying on a device for a ticket might want one. You usually only need the QR/Aztec code bit, not the rest of the stuff on the PDFs that you are often emailed by airlines, Ticketmaster etc.

But I do have a printer at home because they're still useful for many things.

 

[kkong]

Probably of limited use because while the railway's e-tickets are "till roll sized" format, most other boarding cards, printable e-tickets etc assume A4. If you just want to print a load of railway e-tickets it's a good idea, though.

There's nothing stopping you shrinking the PDF to whatever paper size you want to use in the printer.

Earlier this month, I presented an A6 card boarding pass at the gate for an easyJet flight without issue.

The departure airport in question required physical boarding passes.