E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

[sor]

How come they made it so that the 26-30 Railcard is only available on a mobile device? That implies that they are looking to make everything digital-only eventually.

I think they assumed the yoofs would all have phones innit. I had the trial version of the 26-30 card and I'd put my ask for a physical card into every monthly survey that they did.

Although having a printer shouldn’t be taken as a given. They’re expensive things that many have little use for these days. I certainly don’t have one.

I do have one, but it seems to be broken (print head issue) and that immediately makes it beyond economic repair. Even if it worked, I don't think I should have to use my own printer for a train ticket if I do not want to. e-tickets are designed to save the railway money, and they should ensure that it's fit for purpose across all potential use cases.

No, it includes the ink.

And this will dry out if it isn't used frequently, or cause other problems (see above). There's an ongoing cost either way.

The only people being encouraged to print e-tickets are those who seem terrified at the prospect of their phone battery not lasting, or who don’t carry a smartphone.

"terrified" because the rules/laws, as currently written, treat alleged ticketless travel as if it's high treason. Change the laws (and/or have the railway provide workarounds) and people would be rather less "terrified".

The other potential pitfall is someone whose phone is lost/stolen/broken during their trip. The railway's attitude is presumably that we should either have £xxx for a replacement phone or carry insurance so that we can replace it before we travel.

 

[fandroid]

That’s far from what I’m suggesting. I was just pointing out that sudden battery failure is a thing, even if the majority of such claims are attempts at fare evasion.

What I am suggesting is the option of being able to copy your ticket to a non volatile medium, ie a smartcard, from your phone. Clearly it can be done, as I’ve done it in Scotland. There’s some doubt as to whether reservation information can be so copied, but that is not insurmountable. ITSO cards appear to have fields for reservation details, and also the booking reference.

It's very possible to load a ticket from a phone to a Smartcard in SWR and GWR territory, but only if you specified that during purchase and if the TOC supports a Smartcard version for that ticket and if your journey stays within their boundaries!

Good for everyday local use but not much good for a journey to Scotland.

I have had the empty phone battery hit me on one journey due to my routine being previously disrupted and not thinking through the consequences until I neared the exit barrier. Fortunately, I was allowed through and was able to charge the phone at my destination before the return journey.

 

[trainophile]

You can get a neat little pocket size 5000 mAh power bank in TK Maxx for a tenner. Should be more than adequate to give almost a full charge to most phones. You'd probably have a charging cable with you anyway, or £1.50 in a Poundstretcher type shop.

 

[Ediswan]

* Technically it's illegal not to carry it when driving but producing it within 7 days at a police station of your choice is a statutory defence to the offence.

Source please. (It being a driving licence.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing stopping you shrinking the PDF to whatever paper size you want to use in the printer.

Earlier this month, I presented an A6 card boarding pass at the gate for an easyJet flight without issue.

The departure airport in question required physical boarding passes.

That's taking a heck of a risk. Particularly when it comes to the likes of Ryanair who are awkward for the sake of it.

 

[Haywain]

, I don't think I should have to use my own printer for a train ticket if I do not want to.

You don't have to, it's optional.

And this will dry out if it isn't used frequently, or cause other problems (see above).

No idea, it's not something I've ever encountered.

The other potential pitfall is someone whose phone is lost/stolen/broken during their trip. The railway's attitude is presumably that we should either have £xxx for a replacement phone or carry insurance so that we can replace it before we travel.

This is really no different to putting a paper ticket in a wallet and the wallet being lost or stolen. Except that you can still access your eTicket through online sources, but you would have to buy a new paper ticket.

 

[cool110]

Source please. (It being a driving licence.)

Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 164

 

[sor]

You don't have to, it's optional.

No idea, it's not something I've ever encountered.

This is really no different to putting a paper ticket in a wallet and the wallet being lost or stolen. Except that you can still access your eTicket through online sources, but you would have to buy a new paper ticket.

Without taking the thread off topic - whether you've personally encountered it or not, inkjet printer issues are not unusual and it is why the recommendation is often to avoid inkjets, especially cheap ones, and go for lasers. It's simply not credible to suggest that travellers must maintain a printer to replace the facilities the railway used to provide.

I don't wave my orange ticket around in the street for someone to grab out of my hands, nor can I damage it beyond use by merely dropping it on the ground, nor does it fade after a few hours. Not comparable to phones.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think I should have to use my own printer for a train ticket if I do not want to. e-tickets are designed to save the railway money, and they should ensure that it's fit for purpose across all potential use cases.

You don't need a printer. You just need to ensure your phone works. If they can't scan it due to a fault at their end, they'll just have to accept the code without scanning - so there's really no risk other than your phone breaking, being stolen etc.

Hence why you might want to print the code. It can be any size (within reason) and doesn't need to be on any specific sized paper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without taking the thread off topic - whether you've personally encountered it or not, inkjet printer issues are not unusual and it is why the recommendation is often to avoid inkjets, especially cheap ones, and go for lasers. It's simply not credible to suggest that travellers must maintain a printer to replace the facilities the railway used to provide.

The railway has not ceased to provide printed tickets and has no intention of so doing.

(ToD may go away, indeed is likely to, but it would still be possible to purchase a physical ticket at a TVM or booking office)

 

[sor]

You don't need a printer. You just need to ensure your phone works. If they can't scan it due to a fault at their end, they'll just have to accept the code without scanning - so there's really no risk other than your phone breaking, being stolen etc.

Hence why you might want to print the code. It can be any size (within reason) and doesn't need to be on any specific sized paper.

The railway has not ceased to provide printed tickets and has no intention of so doing.

(ToD may go away, indeed is likely to, but it would still be possible to purchase a physical ticket at a TVM or booking office)

Same response for both really.

ToD keeps everything within the railway's control and the railway's problem should it fail to perform. Smartcards do that too. But the industry wants people to use e-tickets - last time I booked via GA that was the first and default option for any ticket that is enabled for it. I don't recall masses of warnings about how your phone must be in peak physical condition with 150% battery life at all times or you risk prosecution.

As ToD disappears and the industry further pushes e-tickets, what *is* the solution? Will there be "ToD" machines at stations where I can enter the ticket ID or scan the barcode and have a railway owned and operated machine print my e-ticket for me if I so choose? My point is that customers shouldn't be forced in providing that solution, be it a phone or a printer, when e-tickets are largely there to lower the railway's admin costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ToD keeps everything within the railway's control and the railway's problem should it fail to perform. Smartcards do that too. But the industry wants people to use e-tickets - last time I booked via GA that was the first and default option for any ticket that is enabled for it. I don't recall masses of warnings about how your phone must be in peak physical condition with 150% battery life at all times or you risk prosecution.

1. People also want to use e-tickets. It is a very convenient method of buying a ticket - no queueing at all, for one - because walking times are incredibly predictable it does mean one can time leaving home, buying on the way, and walk onto the platform as the train pulls in.

2. This is gross hyperbole.

As ToD disappears and the industry further pushes e-tickets, what *is* the solution? Will there be "ToD" machines at stations where I can enter the ticket ID or scan the barcode and have a railway owned and operated machine print my e-ticket for me if I so choose? My point is that customers shouldn't be forced in providing that solution, be it a phone or a printer, when e-tickets are largely there to lower the railway's admin costs.

I do think this should be possible, but in reality it'll likely be a choice between buy from a person/TVM on physical media or buy an e-ticket and provide the means of producing it yourself. Which my observations seem to suggest 95%+ of passengers are more than happy with.

 

[jon0844]

When you buy a ticket you get a choice of ToD or e-ticket. From what I can see now, most people are opting for e-tickets. NONE of them are forced to. They've decided it is easiest and most convenient for them. If anything, I think people are getting upset when they can't get an e-ticket because, say, they're going through London on the Tube.

If anyone forces e-tickets to become the norm, blame all the people who opted to use them and made ToD become a miniscule percentage of how people collect their tickets.

 

[kkong]

When you buy a ticket you get a choice of ToD or e-ticket. From what I can see now, most people are opting for e-tickets. NONE of them are forced to. They've decided it is easiest and most convenient for them.

I don't think this is a true representation of the situation.

There is a deliberate nudge (some might say 'shove') towards eTickets by - at least sections of - the rail industry.

Take LNER (for example):

• Booking on their website, to even see the option for ToD, you have to make what may be an untrue statement ("I don't have a printer or smartphone").
• Booking on their app, there is no option for ToD at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a deliberate nudge (some might say 'shove') towards eTickets by - at least sections of - the rail industry.

Of course there is. It's cheaper for them, and it's more convenient for most customers.

Take LNER (for example):

• Booking on their website, to even see the option for ToD, you have to make what may be an untrue statement ("I don't have a printer or smartphone").
• Booking on their app, there is no option for ToD at all.

If you want a paper ticket you can obtain one from a TVM or booking office. This is likely to be how it is going forward. You either choose fully electronic or fully traditional - there's no guarantee the hybrid model will continue, largely because hardly anyone wants it and it comes at a huge cost to the industry to provide it.

Why on earth would you buy a ticket on an app for collection? Why wouldn't you just buy it at the TVM?

 

[kkong]

Of course there is. It's cheaper for them, and it's more convenient for most customers.

I didn't suggest otherwise; I was refuting a point made by @jon0844

Why on earth would you buy a ticket on an app for collection? Why wouldn't you just buy it at the TVM?

Advance tickets, in cases where the travellers prefer CCST.

You might just as well ask "why buy a ticket on a website for collection". Apps and websites are typically functionally equivalent

Ableit not so in LNER's case, with no ToD in the app and no 'Perks' credit spend outside the app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Advance tickets, in cases where the travellers prefer CCST.

These can be purchased at booking offices and planner-based TVMs.

 

[kkong]

These can be purchased at booking offices and planner-based TVMs.

I know that. But it's easier to purchase them at home, or wherever else you happen to be with access to a computer or smartphone.

Why would I want to go to a station or booking office in advance of travel if I can do it from where I currently am?

 

[Haywain]

It's simply not credible to suggest that travellers must maintain a printer to replace the facilities the railway used to provide.

How many times does it have to be said - nobody is saying that anyone has to have a printer!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that. But it's easier to purchase them at home, or wherever else you happen to be with access to a computer or smartphone.

Why would I want to go to a station or booking office in advance of travel if I can do it from where I currently am?

Would you be willing to pay a significant premium on your ticket price for the added cost of maintaining ToD when hardly anyone is using it? (And most who are are doing so because of the issue with cross London tickets being issued as e-ticket, which will be resolved in due course?)

 

[kkong]

Would you be willing to pay a significant premium on your ticket price for the added cost of maintaining ToD when hardly anyone is using it? (And most who are are doing so because of the issue with cross London tickets being issued as e-ticket, which will be resolved in due course?)

I don't see why there should be a premium, if (as you said a few moments ago), TVMs and ticket offices will likely remain present and capable of printing paper tickets.

There will still be a database of tickets which these TVMs and ticket offices will need access to.

 

[jon0844]

And nobody is being forced. If LNER is being a bit cheeky with the way it steers people towards getting their ticket as an e-ticket then fair enough, but don't most people use Trainline (even though they probably shouldn't). Does Trainline do this also?

In any case, if you didn't have a smartphone or printer then you'd want a physical ticket. If you DO have a smartphone then you'll probably want an e-ticket.

I'd love to know how many people are getting an e-ticket because they have a smartphone but wishing they'd lied to get a paper one, but somehow felt that maybe they'd be caught out and, well, what? What would happen if you had a smartphone but said you didn't at the time of purchase??!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will still be a database of tickets which these TVMs and ticket offices will need access to.

The ToD database will not still exist, it will likely be decommissioned.

 

[sor]

2. This is gross hyperbole.

Not really. The requirement is that the device must be powered on, functional, and able to display the ticket whenever required.

Of course there is. It's cheaper for them, and it's more convenient for most customers.

If you want a paper ticket you can obtain one from a TVM or booking office. This is likely to be how it is going forward. You either choose fully electronic or fully traditional - there's no guarantee the hybrid model will continue, largely because hardly anyone wants it and it comes at a huge cost to the industry to provide it.

And if the industry no longer wants to provide paper tickets, then it needs to adjust the rules or processes to account for passengers whose devices may be non functional. Or... just provide paper tickets on request.

Why on earth would you buy a ticket on an app for collection? Why wouldn't you just buy it at the TVM?

An ever growing number of people are "app first" and do everything that way. Presumably they'd still like to buy advance tickets or flexible tickets w/ seat reservations too and may want the option of a printed ticket.

If you're seriously suggesting that these people should revert to using a ticket office - I have no words

How many times does it have to be said - nobody is saying that anyone has to have a printer!

But the railway is effectively saying that because it wishes to impose severe penalties on e-ticket users who cannot display on request (the same rules that apply to all other tickets). That means the only way to be sure is to have a printed ticket, and it seems the railway has not yet decided to offer printers for those tickets.

Meanwhile, even McDonalds can figure out whether you actually bought the food you claim to have paid for, if you can't show a receipt - it takes a few seconds on their till - but the mighty GB railway industry can't manage this with their supposedly modern ticketing system.

 

[kkong]

The ToD database will not still exist, it will likely be decommissioned.

If we accept that CCST tickets are to be discontinued and replaced universally with eTickets (as I think we all seem to agree they will be), there will still need to be "a database" of all tickets sold (including by TVMs and ticket offices on paper) and I don't see what is so special about a ToD code?

It is surely trivial to have the database set up with a flag in the eTicket database stating "to be collected at ticket office or TVM"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. The requirement is that the device must be powered on, functional, and able to display the ticket whenever required.

Which means it needs 1% battery (it'll last ages on this level in flight mode) and for the screen to work. Other functions can be broken, e.g. you don't need the NFC, the audio functionality etc.

What you said was gross hyperbole.

And if the industry no longer wants to provide paper tickets, then it needs to adjust the rules or processes to account for passengers whose devices may be non functional. Or... just provide paper tickets on request.

The industry does not intend to abolish paper tickets. As I said, it may (is likely to) abolish paper tickets being issued from online bookings, but you can still obtain a paper ticket from a TVM or booking office if that's important to you (and you can pay cash for it if you wish too). The railway is not required to pander to all your desires when to do so is increasingly costly and causes all sorts of problems.

An ever growing number of people are "app first" and do everything that way. Presumably they'd still like to buy advance tickets or flexible tickets w/ seat reservations too.

Almost everyone who is "app first" will want an e-ticket.

If you're seriously suggesting that these people should revert to using a ticket office - I have no words

It's not worth the huge cost of providing the ToD infrastructure for a tiny number of people. And ToD has other problems, e.g. failures to print, people with Chase cards.....

But the railway is effectively saying that because it wishes to impose severe penalties on e-ticket users who cannot display on request (the same rules that apply to all other tickets). That means the only way to be sure is to have a printed ticket, and it seems the railway has not yet decided to offer printers for those tickets.

You can as easily drop a paper ticket as have trouble with your phone. No form of ticket is infallible, but with an e-ticket you can access it from several devices (I've usually got two, phone and iPad, and often a laptop too) and you can print twenty copies and stash them all round your clothing and bags too if you want. (That isn't entirely in jest - in 2015 I took a group of young people to Switzerland, and there were six copies of the boarding cards, one set with each leader and each young person having their own - can't do that with a card one!)

If we accept that CCST tickets are to be discontinued and replaced universally with eTickets (as I think we all seem to agree they will be), there will still need to be "a database" of all tickets sold (including by TVMs and ticket offices on paper) and I don't see what is so special about a ToD code?

It is surely trivial to have the database set up with a flag in the eTicket database stating "to be collected at ticket office or TVM"?

There isn't one single database of e-tickets. Each retailer has its own. All the information required to validate the e-ticket is in the barcode. There are even a couple of databases of scans.

This is something I don't think is the best possible design, but it's how it is.

 

[kkong]

There isn't one single database of e-tickets. Each retailer has its own. All the information required to validate the e-ticket is in the barcode. There are even a couple of databases of scans.

This is something I don't think is the best possible design, but it's how it is.

So we're going backwards from where we are in terms of the system design and functionality.

The 8-character ToD codes ("CTR") are common across all retailers and can be collected from any operator's TVM at any station (notwithstanding there seem to be some issues in Merseyside from what I have read on other threads).

So we currently have a common ToD database, but in the industry's brave new world, they cannot manage to mandate a common eTicket database.

 

[Haywain]

But the railway is effectively saying that because it wishes to impose severe penalties on e-ticket users who cannot display on request (the same rules that apply to all other tickets).

That's what the thread was about, before it got derailed by the usual arguments about how unfair it is to have eTickets at all. Do you think abolishing something as popular as eTickets is the solution, because that's what you seem to be arguing for?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we're going backwards from where we are in terms of the system design and functionality.

The 8-character ToD codes ("CTR") are common across all retailers and can be collected from any operator's TVM at any station (notwithstanding there seem to be some issues in Merseyside from what I have read on other threads).

So we currently have a common ToD database, but in the industry's brave new world, they cannot manage to mandate a common eTicket database.

I agree with that and would like to see progress towards a true e-ticketing approach (where the ticket is a record in a database and any sales channel can carry out any action on any booking), however that isn't where we are and maintaining ToD is very costly for vastly diminished numbers of users.

 

[Haywain]

they cannot manage to mandate a common eTicket database.

There doesn't need to be a central database of eTickets.