E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

[krus_aragon]

Which means it needs 1% battery (it'll last ages on this level in flight mode) and for the screen to work.

Batteries that drop to 1 per cent toward the end of their discharge and then stay there typically do so because something's gone wrong with the charge consumed/remaining calculations, or the health of the battery isn't what it used to be. It's a kind of signal saying "I don't know how much charge is left, but I'll keep going for as long as I can". There's a bit of the "how long is a piece of string" in play at this point, especially if you don't know when the indicator dropped to 1 per cent.

Your point about reducing current draw by turning off power-hungry options and entering flight mode is also relevant before getting down to a low state of charge: the earlier you do it, the more charge you'll have left!

 

[TUC]

There seems to be a simple equation here. You have a phone with a poor battery. Go and buy a paper ticket, but please don't buy an e-ticket and then expect the system to be built round taking you at your word because of your unreliable phone.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I truly cannot understand the people on this thread who cannot comprehend that a customer who’s already paid for a ticket then having to buy another one at considerable expense is a poor experience that’ll lead to people abandoning the railway. Come on. We’re talking Ryanair levels of customer service (but with the additional factor of being embarrassed in public & potentially prosecuted.)

Because many of them work for the railway and that level of customer service is entrenched in them

 

[AM9]

Because many of them work for the railway and that level of customer service is entrenched in them

And many of them have never worked for the railway but believe that passengers are responsible their actions, including decisions on which ticket medium they choose to use and how they protect that in the course of their journey.
If we were discussing the plight of passengers who were penalised because their phone (containing their ticket) was stolen, it might involve some easement of the rules, however losing a ticket is the holder's problem (even if it is stored on a device not fit for it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Batteries that drop to 1 per cent toward the end of their discharge and then stay there typically do so because something's gone wrong with the charge consumed/remaining calculations, or the health of the battery isn't what it used to be. It's a kind of signal saying "I don't know how much charge is left, but I'll keep going for as long as I can". There's a bit of the "how long is a piece of string" in play at this point, especially if you don't know when the indicator dropped to 1 per cent.

That wasn't really what I meant - just that flight mode reduces power usage to near zero.

Your point about reducing current draw by turning off power-hungry options and entering flight mode is also relevant before getting down to a low state of charge: the earlier you do it, the more charge you'll have left!

Also true. Probably prudent to do that a bit earlier, maybe 10% - but if you do it about there you'll probably get over a day out of it even if listening to downloaded music.

And many of them have never worked for the railway but believe that passengers are responsible their actions, including decisions on which ticket medium they choose to use and how they protect that in the course of their journey.

Which totally misses the point that the railway wants to push people onto mobile phone based tickets because externalising the costs of ticket issuing saves them a lot of money. Therefore it's only right that a small proportion of that money be spent on making the system user friendly.

 

[johntea]

The 'rent a charger' station at Harrogate is by a company called Joos - although the website doesn't really tell you too much it is basically the 'mobile charger' equivalent of renting a Boris bike!

Joos | Mobile Charging Stations – Power in your pocket

www.joospower.com

Looking at the app they seem to have quite a number of locations other than railway stations - bars, hotels/conference venues, hospitals

One slight flaw seems to be you actually need to scan a QR code...with your phone...to get the 'cheap' rental otherwise if you want to pay by card (because your phone is already dead) they have to pre authorise a charge of around £20 - £30 in case you never return the charger

Thinking about it I have seen a similar idea in the past but you had to connect your phone to the machine and leave it locked up in there whilst it charged

 

[AM9]

That wasn't really what I meant - just that flight mode reduces power usage to near zero.

Flight mode just switches off RF emissions in order to comply with the demands of the airlines. With smartphones, screens, and certainly cpu intensive apps like games still place a considerable load on the battery.

Which totally misses the point that the railway wants to push people onto mobile phone based tickets because externalising the costs of ticket issuing saves them a lot of money. Therefore it's only right that a small proportion of that money be spent on making the system user friendly.

So long as the railway continues to offer non-electronic tickets, (and I am frequently reminded of that here by certain posters), those that choose to use their phones must take responsibility. It's up to the railway to encourage responsible or irresponsible behaviour as they see fit, but once some exceptional concessions are made, the irresponsible few treat them as entitlements and blame everybody else for their errors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flight mode just switches off RF emissions in order to comply with the demands of the airlines. With smartphones, screens, and certainly cpu intensive apps like games still place a considerable load on the battery.

The two things that put the main pressure on the battery are the screen and the RF part. Turn those off and lifetime is significantly better. CPU intensive games maybe but I've never "done" phone games.

I have done this lots of times and can 100% confirm I am right - switch to flight mode and only use it for listening to downloaded music via wired headphones (Bluetooth is quite power intensive at times too, though it isn't *that* bad) and for showing your e-ticket and you will get many hours from a low percentage.

So long as the railway continues to offer non-electronic tickets, (and I am frequently reminded of that here by certain posters), those that choose to use their phones must take responsibility.

Totally misses the point, as I said. The railway wishes to encourage the externalisation of their delivery costs. Thus they should support users in doing so.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Which totally misses the point that the railway wants to push people onto mobile phone based tickets because externalising the costs of ticket issuing saves them a lot of money. Therefore it's only right that a small proportion of that money be spent on making the system user friendly.

Railways want to push people to Smart Ticketing, we're perfectly happy with printed barcodes (PRT or eTicket)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Railways want to push people to Smart Ticketing, we're perfectly happy with printed barcodes (PRT or eTicket)

The railway wants to externalise its costs. What do you mean by smart ticketing? ITSO is tech from 20 years ago.

 

[Richardr]

Having said all that, the Railway should also be a bit less keen to jump to threaten prosecution in the first instance. There should really be some sort of "we'll let you off just this once" system like with forgotten railcards.

Is there an easy way of doing that? With railcards there is a link. Would the rail companies have to keep a common database of those whose battery has run put before?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there an easy way of doing that? With railcards there is a link. Would the rail companies have to keep a common database of those whose battery has run put before?

The railway does keep a record of people who commit fare infringements of any kind and does (generally) offer less leniency the more often you do it. It's not just Railcards, it's seasons too.

 

[AM9]

The two things that put the main pressure on the battery are the screen and the RF part. Turn those off and lifetime is significantly better. CPU intensive games maybe but I've never "done" phone games.

I have done this lots of times and can 100% confirm I am right - switch to flight mode and only use it for listening to downloaded music via wired headphones (Bluetooth is quite power intensive at times too, though it isn't *that* bad) and for showing your e-ticket and you will get many hours from a low percentage.

Power draw from contact with base staions is indeed quite high but unless actually talking in conversation, updating location is quite brief and has a relatively low energy demand. Screen use is however continuous on many apps. Bluetooth (and GPS) should be inhibited when in aircraft mode.

Totally misses the point, as I said. The railway wishes to encourage the externalisation of their delivery costs. Thus they should support users in doing so.
[/QUOTE?

So what, everybody tries to externalise their costs, - the expression may be a business term for making somebody else pay but as several posts here state, why should individual travellers have to fund a printer, ink and toner just to have a human friendly travel ticket. As the railway has no way of forcing everybody to use ticketing systems that involve owning a smartphone and/or a facility to print, it will need to fund other mechanisms/technology that any of it's customers can use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Power draw from contact with base staions is indeed quite high but unless actually talking in conversation, updating location is quite brief and has a relatively low energy demand. Screen use is however continuous on many apps.

Only if you have it turned on!

Seriously, it's not hard. If your battery is low, enter flight mode and minimise usage. This will make it last hours if not days.

Bluetooth (and GPS) should be inhibited when in aircraft mode.

They generally aren't as there's no safety reason not to use either on an aircraft. Bluetooth is very low power and doesn't interfere (though airlines used to be a bit paranoid about it), while GPS doesn't transmit anything at all.

 

[AM9]

The railway wants to externalise its costs. What do you mean by smart ticketing? ITSO is tech from 20 years ago.

So what! Paper was introduced by the Chinese about 4000 years ago and it has survived all the wizzo tech solutions that were heralded as removing the necessity for paper. Given that rfid tags are often put on quite low value disposable commodity items, smart cards with their multiple use functions are not in immediate jeopardy of extinction just because they are a few days before yesterday's technology.

Only if you have it turned on!

Seriously, it's not hard. If your battery is low, enter flight mode and minimise usage. This will make it last hours if not days.



They generally aren't as there's no safety reason not to use either on an aircraft. Bluetooth is very low power and doesn't interfere (though airlines used to be a bit paranoid about it), while GPS doesn't transmit anything at all.

My experience is different. I've used a mobile switched to aircraft mode in flight and the battery discharge curve was little different to when the same was donen the ground in normal mode. It was the screen that to the bulk of the energy. I don't play phone games either.
Aircraft mode in my experience turns both BT and GPS, which despite being a receiver, and theoretically not emitting, it is vhf equipment and as such is included in the radio silence function. Although mobiles are sometimes allowed in aircraft in normal mode, the FAA has not rescinded the original edict (22.925) that they cannot be used on aircraft. accordingly give the US's market influence and it's addiction to flying everywhere, phone manufacturers continue to implement full radio silence in Aircraft mode of current models of smartphones.

 

[island]

How come they made it so that the 26-30 Railcard is only available on a mobile device? That implies that they are looking to make everything digital-only eventually.

I think they just didn't want the faff of distribution and storage of two more types of ticket stock to every booking office.

 

[Haywain]

Aircraft mode in my experience turns both BT and GPS,

Airplane mode on my phone only turns off Bluetooth is the phone is not currently connected to another device, if it is connected, it stays connected.

 

[trainophile]

I wonder how many of the posters on this thread have iPhones and how many use Android phones. In my experience as a longtime iPhone user even a fairly new phone tends to run the battery down quite quickly. I believe Android phones have more resilient batteries, although I don’t have any proof of that.

I suppose as with everything it depends what phone you have.

It’s not hard to spot that the vast majority of rail travellers nowadays are pretty much glued to their phones constantly. Perhaps we should all carry two - one for using and one to store our tickets!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how many of the posters on this thread have iPhones and how many use Android phones. In my experience as a longtime iPhone user even a fairly new phone tends to run the battery down quite quickly. I believe Android phones have more resilient batteries, although I don’t have any proof of that.

???

Other than the iPhone Mini which was a compromise design having a smaller battery than it really needed, all recent new iPhones will do a full day of average usage without needing a charge. If yours doesn't I'd wonder what software you were running on it that is eating battery.

I've had both and my present 15 Pro has the best battery life of any smartphone I've had by a considerable margin.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what! Paper was introduced by the Chinese about 4000 years ago and it has survived all the wizzo tech solutions that were heralded as removing the necessity for paper. Given that rfid tags are often put on quite low value disposable commodity items, smart cards with their multiple use functions are not in immediate jeopardy of extinction just because they are a few days before yesterday's technology.

If paper was a brave new technology invented today it would be rightly decried as an unsuitable ticket medium for all the things that could go wrong with it. Ink could rub off, the printer could fail, you could lose it, too easy to deface, no need to kill trees to fulfil passenger journeys, needs expensive machinery to fulfil we can ill afford, etc etc etc.

People on this forum would also invent other, novel reasons paper tickets couldn't work that none of us have ever seen happen in reality.

 

[AM9]

If paper was a brave new technology invented today it would be rightly decried as an unsuitable ticket medium for all the things that could go wrong with it. Ink could rub off, the printer could fail, you could lose it, too easy to deface, no need to kill trees to fulfil passenger journeys, needs expensive machinery to fulfil we can ill afford, etc etc etc.

People on this forum would also invent other, novel reasons paper tickets couldn't work that none of us have ever seen happen in reality.

Yes there's always been careless people around, - even here on RUK. And of course, it's never their fault that they can't do what they've contracted to do.

 

[trainophile]

???

Other than the iPhone Mini which was a compromise design having a smaller battery than it really needed, all recent new iPhones will do a full day of average usage without needing a charge. If yours doesn't I'd wonder what software you were running on it that is eating battery.

I've had both and my present 15 Pro has the best battery life of any smartphone I've had by a considerable margin.

Never had a Pro, and I do get a day out of my 14, but I remember the original Nokias where you got a week! But obviously they didn’t have any fancy apps etc., you were lucky if they even had a camera.

Another observation of e-tickets, they do hold up queues at gatelines when people have to juggle their luggage to get their ticket up on their phone. In places with limited access/exit gates (My home station Hereford for example) it can take quite a while to get out, which is particularly frustrating if your bus is outside and about to depart.

I just encountered the usual blockade at Preston while making a connection there, and some people were having trouble carrying their luggage while trying to sort out their phone ticket. Another (the main one actually) reason I still prefer paper tickets.

Even at Lime Street there were only a couple of green “in” barriers accessing the low numbered platforms, and queues were forming behind people who couldn’t just pop their paper ticket through the slot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never had a Pro, and I do get a day out of my 14, but I remember the original Nokias where you got a week! But obviously they didn’t have any fancy apps etc., you were lucky if they even had a camera.

Dumbphones and smartphones are two very different things, of course. You did get a week out of a Nokia, but equally you woudn't use it nearly as much because it had far fewer functions than a smartphone, and the small monochrome screen used next to no power.

Another observation of e-tickets, they do hold up queues at gatelines when people have to juggle their luggage to get their ticket up on their phone. In places with limited access/exit gates (My home station Hereford for example) it can take quite a while to get out, which is particularly frustrating if your bus is outside and about to depart.

I just encountered the usual blockade at Preston while making a connection there, and some people were having trouble carrying their luggage while trying to sort out their phone ticket. Another (the main one actually) reason I still prefer paper tickets.

I would say it's more faff getting a paper ticket out of my wallet than getting out my phone and tapping the already-visible Apple Wallet card to show it. It's more of a faff for people who decline to use these handy additional technologies.

 

[Mark J]

I wonder how many of the posters on this thread have iPhones and how many use Android phones. In my experience as a longtime iPhone user even a fairly new phone tends to run the battery down quite quickly. I believe Android phones have more resilient batteries, although I don’t have any proof of that.

I suppose as with everything it depends what phone you have.

It’s not hard to spot that the vast majority of rail travellers nowadays are pretty much glued to their phones constantly. Perhaps we should all carry two - one for using and one to store our tickets!

This is being typed on a six year old Samsung 9+, with a battery health of 72% (according to Accubattery). I get around two hours of fairly intensive use out if it.

It all depends how you look after a phone. The better, you do so, the longer it will last.

Also not letting battery drop below 20%, or above 80/85% does prolong its life.

If you regularly let it drop to zero, then recharge to 100%, then it won't last more than a couple of years - or the 400-ish recharge cycles many manufacturers claim.

With regards to the topic on this thread, many train units now have plugs and USB sockets. If you are out for the whole day, the battery in your phone is unlikely to last the day. Especially if you are using it frequently when out. Many people (including myself) tend to carry a battery pack unit.

Many who claim to have a dead battery when tickets are checked are either pulling a fast one, are ill prepared, or too tight to invest in a backup battery pack, which can be obtained fairly cheaply nowadays.

 

[800Travel]

???

Other than the iPhone Mini which was a compromise design having a smaller battery than it really needed, all recent new iPhones will do a full day of average usage without needing a charge. If yours doesn't I'd wonder what software you were running on it that is eating battery.

I've had both and my present 15 Pro has the best battery life of any smartphone I've had by a considerable margin.

I love how small the phone is, but 2 years on it was a poor purchasing decision on my part. If the battery was easily and inexpensively replaceable though, it'd be fantastic! Maybe like those old blackberries (probably spelt wrong) where you could pop out the battery. Maybe I'll just get Apple to replace the battery, but it's rather expensive!

As my phone has a small battery, I always carry a power bank and charger. Ultimately, if a passenger's phone may not remain charged they should have provisions in place to top it up. I think though that a charger should class as sufficient, and then maybe if the power sockets were out of order there should be a way to reclaim the extra ticket costs like how it works with a forgotten railcard for the first time each year.

 

[mike57]

or above 80/85% does prolong its life.

My current Samsung S22 Ultra has a setting which allows you to stop charging at 85% to prolong battery life. I leave this enabled most of the time and only do a 100% charge if I know I am going to be out for a full day.

Really this whole battery running out debate is about common sense, again if going out for full day I always carry a charging lead in my pocket (I dont bother with a mains charger unless its an overnight or longer) and have a very small pocketable power bank which is maybe half the size of a phone as well which gives a 50% charge for emergencies. Also rather than waiting until my phone is running down on battery I always charge it when I can, that way when something goes wrong I have 80%+ left.

I dont regard it as the railways responsibility to provide for/accomodate my lack of foresight when I travel beyond the provision of charging points, which all the trains I have been on recently have, as well as many buses. I know my phone battery runs down, I take steps to ensure that I can charge it.

 

[sor]

Yes there's always been careless people around, - even here on RUK. And of course, it's never their fault that they can't do what they've contracted to do.

if paper was attempting to replace a more expensive (to the railway) system yet was inherently more fragile, i think it'd be right for people to ask questions as to what the railway intends to do to fix or work around those problems. That's where we are with e-tickets, particularly if they really are intended to replace ToD on orange card. The excuses around passenger preparation might work today where ToD remains an option (though some of us have pointed out how e-tickets are pushed hard by some retailers) but it won't later on.

The ongoing discussion about phone battery life distracts from the fact that people simply might have a non functioning phone or it may have been lost or stolen, and once e-tickets become effectively mandatory then the railway needs to account for that possibility without insinuating that everyone's a fare dodger. Demanding that passengers carry cables or even battery banks is a non-starter here.

 

[AM9]

if paper was attempting to replace a more expensive (to the railway) system yet was inherently more fragile, i think it'd be right for people to ask questions as to what the railway intends to do to fix or work around those problems. That's where we are with e-tickets, particularly if they really are intended to replace ToD on orange card. The excuses around passenger preparation might work today where ToD remains an option (though some of us have pointed out how e-tickets are pushed hard by some retailers) but it won't later on.

The ongoing discussion about phone battery life distracts from the fact that people simply might have a non functioning phone or it may have been lost or stolen, and once e-tickets become effectively mandatory then the railway needs to account for that possibility without insinuating that everyone's a fare dodger. Demanding that passengers carry cables or even battery banks is a non-starter here.

The ongoing discussion is distorted by the fact that a) most here (at a guess) aren't arguing that CCSTs should be here forever and b) that 'e tickets' require a passenger to be equipped with a working smartphone at all times when travelling. Neither is true:
a) 'paper tickets' does not necessarily mean credit card sized pieces of thin card printed with an anti-tamper background and orange stripes on the longer sides and a magnetic stripe on the rear. Paper tickets can equally be on ticket roll stock with a scannable Aztec code plus some details defining the itinerary for which it is valid and it's price. The major obstacle to this is in the NSE area, particularly where the journey includes passing through TfL barriers where there are few gates that can read the Aztec coding. This is in part to do with the inconsistent back office connection that is needed particularly at busy gatelines. To make this viable there would need to be far greater real-time co-operation betweeen TfL and vendor of each ticket, (preferably a single clearing house for live ticket validation. It may take a bit of bashing heads together, - maybe if the Government wasn't forever trying to politically undermine the GLA, they might actually arrive at a common position, as they have recently after the outboundary travelcard brinkmanship.
b) as a) above implies, an 'e ticket' is electronic, but only in it's intended verification. Showing it on a screen is just one method of displaying it and storing a printed version safely in a pocket, wallet or handbag is every bit as acceptable as a digital disply. Whichever way the passenger chooses to carry his or her tickets, it is their responsibility to present them when requested. The opinion of at least one poster here based on their personal experience as a railway employee is that most of the "my battery is flat" or "my phone is dead" pleas are where no such ticket existed. Fortunately, many other posters here who use a smartphone for their tickets' presentation post saying that they normally take steps to minimise such an event by ensuring that their phone has an adequate charge, and if necessary, carry a portable charger. If a passenger says "I had a ticket but I've lost it/it ell out of my pocket etc." they are likely to end up paying for another or maybe a penalty, especially if they paid cash. That's how the personal responsibility thing goes. The mode of ticket is the choice of the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is in part to do with the inconsistent back office connection that is needed particularly at busy gatelines. To make this viable there would need to be far greater real-time co-operation betweeen TfL and vendor of each ticket, (preferably a single clearing house for live ticket validation.

It's not at all. E-tickets are not validated online. All the information required to validate one is in the barcode. The process of logging a scan in the backend database does not have to be, and often is not, real time.

That's how the personal responsibility thing goes. The mode of ticket is the choice of the passenger.

That's also not quite true - the railway is trying to encourage the passenger to save it money by externalising the costs of ticket purchase/display, and as such it should spend some of the money saved on mechanisms to provide for failures in that. To be honest these days I don't see why this shouldn't apply to paper tickets too. All it would require is for tickets to be named - optionally of course - but if it is named you could, if unable to show it at the time, accept a Penalty Fare and appeal it providing the ticket PDF a limited number of times per year.

 

[AM9]

It's not at all. E-tickets are not validated online. All the information required to validate one is in the barcode. The process of logging a scan in the backend database does not have to be, and often is not, real time.

If there is no online validation, a duplicate can be used so that two people can travel as long as they aren't seen by the same inspector.

That's also not quite true - the railway is trying to encourage the passenger to save it money by externalising the costs of ticket purchase/display, and as such it should spend some of the money saved on mechanisms to provide for failures in that. To be honest these days I don't see why this shouldn't apply to paper tickets too. All it would require is for tickets to be named - optionally of course - but if it is named you could, if unable to show it at the time, accept a Penalty Fare and appeal it providing the ticket PDF a limited number of times per year.

I don't think there's a need to have names on tickets, it's not like the requirement for an aircraft manifest. I'm not paranoid about organisations having my name when I use their services, but for public transport on land, I can see no justifiable reason to tie tickets to personal data.