Ealing Broadway Duty Station Manager contact details

[hungover]

Over the last few weeks, a private security firm working on behalf of Ealing Council have been handing out fixed penalty notices (supposedly) for littering.

They spend a few hours a day milling around the entrance to Ealing Broadway station, doling out "fines" to travellers about to enter the station that discover that there are no bins and then drop (and leave) their cigarette butts. They tend to stand just to the side of the entrance but frequently block access to the stairs as they chase "criminals" that walk past them. IMO there are times when they are actively obstructing the entrance. This afternoon there were 3 of them, add 3 "criminals" and that it a significant amount of space being occupied.

Is the forecourt in front of Ealing Broadway station owned by network rail and managed by the duty station manager? And if yes, then do the private environmental protection officers need permission from the duty manager to conduct their business on the land? AFAIK they get £60 from every £80 FPN handed out. I doubt very much that they are sharing that money with the land owners.

In no way am I condoning littering but I have witnessed some pretty shocking behaviour from the firm, who have every incentive to go after soft targets and to interpret the relevant acts in their own "particular" way.

Unless someone here is able to give me a definative answer to the above, do I need to contact the DSM or GSM, and does anyone know how I go about doing that?

Thanks in advance.

BTW the relevant litter acts cover all open spaces (including private land), so they are legally entitled to penalise people outside the station. I just question their right to obstruct the entrance in search of profit.


EDIT-----------------------------



OK, from elsewhere it looks like the station is managed by (First) Great Western.

I have emailed GWR

 

[Bletchleyite]

There wouldn't be any "profit" if people didn't drop litter. Don't drop litter. It is NEVER acceptable. Not for any reason whatsoever. Take it with you until you find a bin, or if that isn't going to be viable don't consume the item that will produce the litter until it is going to be.

I am fully in support of this and hope there is more of it in future.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There wouldn't be any "profit" if people didn't drop litter. Don't drop litter. It is NEVER acceptable. Not for any reason whatsoever. Take it with you until you find a bin, or if that isn't going to be viable don't consume the item that will produce the litter until it is going to be.

I am fully in support of this and hope there is more of it in future.

Discarded cigarette butts are a small but costly problem in and around the railways - they have a tendency to be washed into drains where they get stuck, causing blockages. If there's a heavy rain storm, it's not unusual to see drains flooding, which can cause problems at both platform/station level, and occasionally at track level.

It's physically impossible for safety and security reasons to provide cigarette disposal points everywhere around a railway station, so it has to fall upon smokers to find somewhere to properly discard their cigarettes, if you can take the trouble to buy cigarettes, lighters and matches, move around to avoid the various smoking bans and such, surely you can find a legal and proper place to dispose of your cigarette.

 

[Antman]

Over the last few weeks, a private security firm working on behalf of Ealing Council have been handing out fixed penalty notices (supposedly) for littering.

They spend a few hours a day milling around the entrance to Ealing Broadway station, doling out "fines" to travellers about to enter the station that discover that there are no bins and then drop (and leave) their cigarette butts. They tend to stand just to the side of the entrance but frequently block access to the stairs as they chase "criminals" that walk past them. IMO there are times when they are actively obstructing the entrance. This afternoon there were 3 of them, add 3 "criminals" and that it a significant amount of space being occupied.

Is the forecourt in front of Ealing Broadway station owned by network rail and managed by the duty station manager? And if yes, then do the private environmental protection officers need permission from the duty manager to conduct their business on the land? AFAIK they get £60 from every £80 FPN handed out. I doubt very much that they are sharing that money with the land owners.

In no way am I condoning littering but I have witnessed some pretty shocking behaviour from the firm, who have every incentive to go after soft targets and to interpret the relevant acts in their own "particular" way.

Unless someone here is able to give me a definative answer to the above, do I need to contact the DSM or GSM, and does anyone know how I go about doing that?

Thanks in advance.

BTW the relevant litter acts cover all open spaces (including private land), so they are legally entitled to penalise people outside the station. I just question their right to obstruct the entrance in search of profit.


EDIT-----------------------------



OK, from elsewhere it looks like the station is managed by (First) Great Western.

I have emailed GWR

They are quite common nowadays as councils see it as a way of making money but as you say they seem to go for soft targets and make up the rules as they go along, just as railway revenue staff are often accused of doing

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are quite common nowadays as councils see it as a way of making money but as you say they seem to go for soft targets and make up the rules as they go along, just as railway revenue staff are often accused of doing

The rules are "don't drop litter, ever". End of discussion. Much simpler than the issues of railway ticketing. There are no circumstances whatsoever in which littering of any kind, however minor, is acceptable.

I disagree about "soft targets". It is not acceptable for anyone to drop litter for any reason. Everyone who drops litter of whatever kind needs action taking against them to wipe out this filthy and bone-idle practice.

 

[DarloRich]

The rules are "don't drop litter, ever". End of discussion. Much simpler than the issues of railway ticketing. There are no circumstances whatsoever in which littering of any kind, however minor, is acceptable.

I disagree about "soft targets". It is not acceptable for anyone to drop litter for any reason. Everyone who drops litter of whatever kind needs action taking against them to wipe out this filthy and bone-idle practice.

:roll:these schemes are simply designed to produce revenue from people to timid to challenge the "inspectors". It is much easier for the council to employ goons to give someone a ticket for dropping a fag end than tackle the real polluters isn't it. :roll:

 

[Antman]

The rules are "don't drop litter, ever". End of discussion. Much simpler than the issues of railway ticketing. There are no circumstances whatsoever in which littering of any kind, however minor, is acceptable.

I disagree about "soft targets". It is not acceptable for anyone to drop litter for any reason. Everyone who drops litter of whatever kind needs action taking against them to wipe out this filthy and bone-idle practice.

No it isn't end of discussion even though you would obviously like it to be:roll:

Do you really think the same rules are going to be applied to a gang of yobs as a lone female?

Law enforcement is a matter for the police, not private security firms who are on a commission!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

:roll:these schemes are simply designed to produce revenue from people to timid to challenge the "inspectors". It is much easier for the council to employ goons to give someone a ticket for dropping a fag end than tackle the real polluters isn't it. :roll:

I couldn't have summed it up better

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it isn't end of discussion even though you would obviously like it to be:roll:

It was a figure of speech, I am always happy to discuss things

Do you really think the same rules are going to be applied to a gang of yobs as a lone female?

In the interests of the safety of a lone enforcement officer, most probably. I do sort of see your point. However I retain my view that there is no such thing as the derogatorily termed "easy target" - anyone who drops litter needs pulling up on it. That it is not practical to pull up one person is not a reason not to pull up another. Don't drop litter, it is a vile, filthy habit. Simple.

Law enforcement is a matter for the police, not private security firms who are on a commission!

I'd rather we had more police actively enforcing this, but Councils enforcing it in this way is totally legal.

I couldn't have summed it up better

I'm sorry, you think it is acceptable to drop litter? No right-thinking person will ever need to "challenge the inspectors" simply because they won't drop litter. It is a filthy, disgusting habit. Don't do it, ever. Either carry it until you do encounter a bin, or don't produce it.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sorry, you think it is acceptable to drop litter? No right-thinking person will ever need to "challenge the inspectors" simply because they won't drop litter. It is a filthy, disgusting habit. Don't do it, ever. Either carry it until you do encounter a bin, or don't produce it.

As an obviously "right thinking individual" was I wrong to challenge the goons who issued me with such a ticket for simply walking along a street. I assume by challenging this abuse of position I have made myself a member of the non right thinking section of society.


My point, which you seem incapable of grasping, is that the council should be focusing on dealing with the vast number of fly tips that exist and the businesses and individuals polluting on an industrial scale rather than using contracted goons with little understanding of their powers to intimidate easy targets into handing over a fine.

 

[Clip]

The rules are "don't drop litter, ever". End of discussion. Much simpler than the issues of railway ticketing. There are no circumstances whatsoever in which littering of any kind, however minor, is acceptable.

.

you are right. However councils and the railway should actually go some way to providing waste bins to put our litter in. If there were more of them there would be less litter.

I disagree about "soft targets". It is not acceptable for anyone to drop litter for any reason. Everyone who drops litter of whatever kind needs action taking against them to wipe out this filthy and bone-idle practice

You will never get rid of the problem. End of.

 

[DarloRich]

you are right. However councils and the railway should actually go some way to providing waste bins to put our litter in. If there were more of them there would be less litter.

Correct

 

[hungover]

There wouldn't be any "profit" if people didn't drop litter. Don't drop litter. It is NEVER acceptable. Not for any reason whatsoever. Take it with you until you find a bin, or if that isn't going to be viable don't consume the item that will produce the litter until it is going to be.

I am fully in support of this and hope there is more of it in future.

I am not defending littering.

Apropos acceptability, do you realise that if a fiver falls out of your pocket whilst you are walking along you have littered (assuming that you hadn't noticed and continued walking, thereby leaving it)?

DEFRA suggest that environment protection officers give the "offender" the opportunity to pick up the "litter" but not all private security firms adhere to their suggestions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not acceptable for anyone to drop litter for any reason. Everyone who drops litter of whatever kind needs action taking against them to wipe out this filthy and bone-idle practice.

Yep- those lonely old ladies that feed bread to ducks should be locked up and the keys thrown away. And those marathon runners that take a swig of water, spit it out and then drop their bottles of water. The footballers who spit on the pitch mid game. The person on the park bench who picks up the discarded newspaper next to them, decides not to read and puts it back.

Each of the above are guilty of committing a crime IF the law is interpreted in the strictest sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an obviously "right thinking individual" was I wrong to challenge the goons who issued me with such a ticket for simply walking along a street.

How did that come about? Did he think you had dropped litter when in fact you had not?

My point, which you seem incapable of grasping, is that the council should be focusing on dealing with the vast number of fly tips that exist and the businesses and individuals polluting on an industrial scale rather than using contracted goons with little understanding of their powers to intimidate easy targets into handing over a fine.

I think it would be a good idea to pursue both, though I would rather it was done by Police officers. Just as the fact that murderers exist does not mean it is not worth pursuing petty theft.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apropos acceptability, do you realise that if a fiver falls out of your pocket whilst you are walking along you have littered (assuming that you hadn't noticed and continued walking, thereby leaving it)?

Is the law strict liability, or would it fail the test of intent here? It is unlikely that someone dropping money would intend to do so.

 

[hungover]

:roll:these schemes are simply designed to produce revenue from people to timid to challenge the "inspectors". It is much easier for the council to employ goons to give someone a ticket for dropping a fag end than tackle the real polluters isn't it. :roll:

Watching the "officers" at EB yesterday, they completely ignored two massive guys that dropped their fags as they walked off. Moments later the officers collared a timid short female who dropped a filter-less roll up

To be fair, all three of the parties had littered but as a (recent) non smoker I would rather that the council was trying to catch serious offenders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Discarded cigarette butts are a small but costly problem in and around the railways - they have a tendency to be washed into drains where they get stuck, causing blockages. If there's a heavy rain storm, it's not unusual to see drains flooding, which can cause problems at both platform/station level, and occasionally at track level.

It's physically impossible for safety and security reasons to provide cigarette disposal points everywhere around a railway station, so it has to fall upon smokers to find somewhere to properly discard their cigarettes, if you can take the trouble to buy cigarettes, lighters and matches, move around to avoid the various smoking bans and such, surely you can find a legal and proper place to dispose of your cigarette.

Valid points, but there is only one entrance to EB station. There are 4 retail outlets in the station that offer food, surely that in itself should be grounds for providing a bin? Should the LA be expected to provide bins for GWR customers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Valid points, but there is only one entrance to EB station. There are 4 retail outlets in the station that offer food, surely that in itself should be grounds for providing a bin?

If you return the litter from a particular establishment to that establishment, will they not take it? Absent bins in places like stations I have tended to find this will work.

 

[hungover]

No it isn't end of discussion even though you would obviously like it to be:roll:

Do you really think the same rules are going to be applied to a gang of yobs as a lone female?

Law enforcement is a matter for the police, not private security firms who are on a commission!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I couldn't have summed it up better

I do not have an issue with local authorities employing staff (directly) to enforce bylaws. Litter is a problem that needs to be addressed. However that approach needs to be co-ordinated. Provide bins, educate the public, those that refuse to comply? Fine them.

We are talking about for profit organisations that interpret the law incorrectly and hope that their victims will not be willing to go to court to defend themselves.

Does anyone defending these firms drive? do they think that if your car sticks out of a parking bay by one inch that it is appropriate for you to be given a £80 fine without a discount for prompt payment and the opportunity to go to arbitration?

Both smoking and litter are emotive subjects. These firms and the councils that use them know this and according bend/break the law in the hope that the public will just finger wag at anyone that is accused of littering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone defending these firms drive? do they think that if your car sticks out of a parking bay by one inch that it is appropriate for you to be given a £80 fine without a discount for prompt payment and the opportunity to go to arbitration?

I'm certainly of the view that people should be penalised for parking over the lines, yes; like littering it is lazy behaviour that impacts unduly on the convenience of others. You need to spend the time to park equidistant between the lines and something approximating to straight in order that both you and others can enter and exit the vehicles properly without causing "door dings" (another lazy practice; it's easy to put a hand there and prevent it).

If you mean sticking out into the car park not across a white line as the car is a little long, no, not really. But I only ever heard of that once.

 

[hungover]

How did that come about? Did he think you had dropped litter when in fact you had not?



I think it would be a good idea to pursue both, though I would rather it was done by Police officers. Just as the fact that murderers exist does not mean it is not worth pursuing petty theft.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is the law strict liability, or would it fail the test of intent here? It is unlikely that someone dropping money would intend to do so.

And if it wasn't a fiver, but a letter or a receipt or a tissue?

I think that you can see where I am going with this one.

These rackets know that Joe Public will do a quick Google and discover that if they go to court and lose (because they can't afford legal representation) they will end up shelling out about £500 and end up with a criminal record. I suspect that a lot of people pay up because they can't afford justice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm certainly of the view that people should be penalised for parking over the lines, yes; like littering it is lazy behaviour that impacts unduly on the convenience of others. You need to spend the time to park equidistant between the lines and something approximating to straight in order that both you and others can enter and exit the vehicles properly without causing "door dings" (another lazy practice; it's easy to put a hand there and prevent it).

If you mean sticking out into the car park not across a white line as the car is a little long, no, not really. But I only ever heard of that once.

I was referring to parking bays that are one in front of the other, rather than side to side. I do not drive but I have seen drivers that have parked in bays that have become under sized because of the actions of another driver encroaching upon their bay.

Are you of the opinion that the driver of the shortened bay should not have attempted to park in that bay? Let's say that the bay was the end in a series of bays. Does that driver really still deserve an instant £80 fine for being 24mm over the bay?

My GF once received a PCN for parking outside St Mary's hospital at 3 AM when my stepson was rushed to hospital (from another hospital 10 miles away) . I was in the ambulance, she followed in her car. The ticket was issued at 7am on a Saturday morning. We were still on A&E at the time.

She broke the "law". She could have spent an hour looking for somewhere else to park, but didn't. Fortunately the local authority didn't adhere to the "tough luck" principle. Had the fine been issued by a 3rd party with no informal appeals process then she would have had to cough up.

Is that really the kind of world that you want to live in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you of the opinion that the driver of the shortened bay should not have attempted to park in that bay? Let's say that the bay was the end in a series of bays. Does that driver really still deserve an instant £80 fine for being 24mm over the bay?

If the fine was there for overlapping the bay, the original car would probably not have done so. So the question is moot.

Is that really the kind of world that you want to live in?

No, but the only way we will return to sanity is if people stop committing these offences and therefore the enforcement will not be profitable.

What I don't want to live in is a society where people have carte blanche to be downright inconsiderate with their littering, parking etc.

 

[hassaanhc]

Does anyone defending these firms drive? do they think that if your car sticks out of a parking bay by one inch that it is appropriate for you to be given a £80 fine without a discount for prompt payment and the opportunity to go to arbitration?

Funnily enough on topic with Ealing Council here, but I seem to find that majority of their on-street parking bays in Southall are so tight that, unless the tyres on one side are touching the kerb, the tyres on the other side will be on the line (for a Toyota Prius anyway). So far I've not had a problem, but seeig enforcement officers around is hit-and-miss.

A few years ago my mum was issued a PCN for supposedly overstaying in a car park in Southall. However, the officer had taken the time of issue for the parking ticket (written in small print) and used it as the time of expiry on the PCN it was successfully appealed, but imagine if parking ticket number had "accidentally" been written incorrectly on the PCN... :roll:

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I can't comment on the specific problem at Ealing Broadway (not having been there), but I do agree that there are generally not enough bins around - and this applies to outside stations as well as on them.

However, I was told quite a while ago that bins were removed from stations after the police advised that they could be used by terrorists to leave bombs in them. Stations were considered to be a realistic target for this, hence the decision.

I think that this may have changed now as there are now bins on stations, but even so, there's not enough and there should be more.

 

[PHILIPE]

I can't comment on the specific problem at Ealing Broadway (not having been there), but I do agree that there are generally not enough bins around - and this applies to outside stations as well as on them.

However, I was told quite a while ago that bins were removed from stations after the police advised that they could be used by terrorists to leave bombs in them. Stations were considered to be a realistic target for this, hence the decision.

I think that this may have changed now as there are now bins on stations, but even so, there's not enough and there should be more.

If anybody is determined to place a bomb on a station they will do it, bins or no bins. This sort of action sends a message that they've got us alarmed.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It wasn't so much as advice to remove them, it was an instruction which originated from somewhere in the Home Office.

All stations are graded for security purposes and the ability to have bins in and around some stations is very limited. It has been a major success to get permission to get clear bins back on certain stations - that took some doing.

 

[PHILIPE]

It amuses me on approaching Cardiff Central on a 175 having come down the marches to hear the announcement: "Will passengers please dispose of their rubbish in the bins on the train and on the stations". Arrive Cardiff Central - No Bins.

 

[EM2]

I was referring to parking bays that are one in front of the other, rather than side to side. I do not drive but I have seen drivers that have parked in bays that have become under sized because of the actions of another driver encroaching upon their bay.

Are you of the opinion that the driver of the shortened bay should not have attempted to park in that bay? Let's say that the bay was the end in a series of bays. Does that driver really still deserve an instant £80 fine for being 24mm over the bay?

As a driver of a fairly big car, if I can't comfortably get into a marked space, even if that's because another driver is at fault, then I don't park in it.

My GF once received a PCN for parking outside St Mary's hospital at 3 AM when my stepson was rushed to hospital (from another hospital 10 miles away) . I was in the ambulance, she followed in her car. The ticket was issued at 7am on a Saturday morning. We were still on A&E at the time.

She broke the "law". She could have spent an hour looking for somewhere else to park, but didn't. Fortunately the local authority didn't adhere to the "tough luck" principle. Had the fine been issued by a 3rd party with no informal appeals process then she would have had to cough up.

Is that really the kind of world that you want to live in?

If it was 3am, why would it have taken an hour to find a space? If you were both in A&E at 7am, why did you not stay and she go to move the car (as I have had to do a number of times)?

I want to live in a world where people don't take it upon themselves to flout rules or laws that they feel inconvenience them, and by doing so cause inconvenience to others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It amuses me on approaching Cardiff Central on a 175 having come down toe marches to hear the announcement: "Will passengers please dispose of their rubbish in the bins on the train and on the stations". Arrive Cardiff Central - No Bins.

Then take it home Or you'll probably find bins in the street outside the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a driver of a fairly big car, if I can't comfortably get into a marked space, even if that's because another driver is at fault, then I don't park in it.

This.

I want to live in a world where people don't take it upon themselves to flout rules or laws that they feel inconvenience them, and by doing so cause inconvenience to others.

And this - and indeed as I said above that any of this kind of enforcement is only necessary because people *do* act inconsiderately. If they by and large behaved, it wouldn't be.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

If anybody is determined to place a bomb on a station they will do it, bins or no bins. This sort of action sends a message that they've got us alarmed.

Yes, I agree.

It wasn't so much as advice to remove them, it was an instruction which originated from somewhere in the Home Office.

All stations are graded for security purposes and the ability to have bins in and around some stations is very limited. It has been a major success to get permission to get clear bins back on certain stations - that took some doing.

This is why the change was right.

It amuses me on approaching Cardiff Central on a 175 having come down the marches to hear the announcement: "Will passengers please dispose of their rubbish in the bins on the train and on the stations". Arrive Cardiff Central - No Bins.

I've heard this elsewhere as well, and it did make me smile as well.

Then take it home Or you'll probably find bins in the street outside the station.

Well, it isn't always possible to take things home with you or to find a bin in the street, but I do see where you're coming from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, it isn't always possible to take things home with you

Please can you give an example of when it is not possible (this does not include "a bit inconvenient" or "a slight hassle") to take litter of the kind you produce on a railway journey home with you (or to your destination where most likely there is a bin) where a bin is not available?

FWIW, if there *is* such an example, don't produce the litter in the first place.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Please can you give an example of when it is not possible (this does not include "a bit inconvenient" or "a slight hassle") to take litter of the kind you produce on a railway journey home with you (or to your destination where most likely there is a bin) where a bin is not available?

FWIW, if there *is* such an example, don't produce the litter in the first place.

I like Boots meal deal when travelling, so I generally end up with a paper sandwich box, a crisp packet or a bit of card and a plastic wrapper from one of their cakes, and a plastic bottle.

I put it all in my rucksack or a jacket pocket, take it home, and sort it into the correct bins for recycling. I wouldn't normally use a normal bin even if one was available, as I like recycling.

 

[Llanigraham]

It amuses me on approaching Cardiff Central on a 175 having come down the marches to hear the announcement: "Will passengers please dispose of their rubbish in the bins on the train and on the stations". Arrive Cardiff Central - No Bins.

I thought they had bins between some of the table facing seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, it isn't always possible to take things home with you or to find a bin in the street, but I do see where you're coming from.

If you have managed to carry it onto the train then you should be able to carry it off again.