Early to mid 1960's Paddington to Torquay - Steam or Diesel?

[nretsew]

Wondering if anyone knows how likely it might have been for steam to be hauling trains from Paddington to Torquay by the mid 1960's?

I was born in 1959, so obviously still very young at the time. But knowing that as a family we travelled 2 or 3 times a year on that route, I have a probably somewhat romantic notion that I might have managed a trip behind steam before the diesels took over.

Thanks in advance.

Graham

 

[70014IronDuke]

Some more expert than me will be along soon, but I'd say by 1965 no chance of steam.

Probably 1964 would be you last chance, if in high holiday and summer relief time.

But by 1963, I'd say the vast majority of Class 1 trains west of Exeter would be diesel. I'd imagine July-August would still see steam workings, most especially reliefs.

 

[Gloster]

A quick look at Walmsley’s allocation book shows Newton Abbot closed to steam in June 1962 and Penzance closed in September. Exeter lasted until October 1963 but didn’t have any express locos by then. Plymouth Laira closed to steam in May 1964, but had lost its large locos before the end of 1962. So it is quite possible that you were steam hauled up to the end of 1962, but thereafter it is unlikely, although there is always the small possibility of steam replacing a failed diesel.

 

[nretsew]

Thanks very much for the replies and info @70014IronDuke and @Gloster - seems that if I had been lucky, it would have been when I was still too young to remember. Oh well, it was nice to at least entertain the idea for a while

Graham

 

[billh]

I'm sure I saw GW 4-6-0s on the Kingswear branch in 1963/4, in between Warship diesels. Had holidays staying with relatives who lived there with views across the river to the railway.IIRC some diesels were double headed.

 

[D Williams]

Report on the Collision which occurred on 25th August 1962 at Torquay in the Western Region British Railways :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

Not mid sixties but a little known incident earlier in the decade.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm sure I saw GW 4-6-0s on the Kingswear branch in 1963/4, in between Warship diesels. Had holidays staying with relatives who lived there with views across the river to the railway.IIRC some diesels were double headed.

By that time, any steam train there would be more likely to have come from the Bristol direction rather than from London.

 

[Gloster]

Report on the Collision which occurred on 25th August 1962 at Torquay in the Western Region British Railways :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

Not mid sixties but a little known incident earlier in the decade.

I believe that @Taunton has mentioned that the steam loco involved was the Taunton Shed favourite and was kept in fine fettle. However, it was substituting for a failed diesel.

 

[Taunton]

I believe that @Taunton has mentioned that the steam loco involved was the Taunton Shed favourite and was kept in fine fettle. However, it was substituting for a failed diesel.

Yes, good old 4932 Hatherton Hall. Described here:

Things you don't see in trains any longer

Dedicated buffet cars

www.railforums.co.uk

There were certainly steam operations later than this. Taunton steam shed closed in Autumn 1964 and there were odd steam operations westwards until then; 4932 was withdrawn only right at the end. Some were substitutions; all were diagrammed for diesel but there would be one or more expresses a day would turn up with a Castle. When it came to the Taunton main line pilot, there just wasn't a Warship spare to have for the job. It wasn't so much them failing on the job as having to be laid to one side for a while because spare parts were in short supply.

 

[Bungle158]

From memory, my family traveled Reading to Paignton on holiday in 1960. Certainly steam hauled, on this occasion by Castle 5049 Earl of Plymouth.

On the return, l was very impressed to see Warship D 800 Sir Brian Robertson at the head of our train, so l guess the writing was already on the wall, even then.

By the time l stopped trainspotting, around 1963, diesel haulage was virtually the norm on the Berks & Hants.

 

[Harvester]

From memory, my family traveled Reading to Paignton on holiday in 1960. Certainly steam hauled, on this occasion by Castle 5049 Earl of Plymouth.

On the return, l was very impressed to see Warship D 800 Sir Brian Robertson at the head of our train, so l guess the writing was already on the wall, even then.

There is a fascinating book by Richard Woodley titled “The Day of the Holiday Express” which recalls the events on one summer Saturday (9th July 1960) on the Western Region. Excluding DMUs, what is surprising is how few diesels were recorded that day on the hundreds of trains observed. Of the 24 Warships then in stock 21 were seen on passenger trains, plus 3 of the 5 NBL D600s. The D6300s seemed only to be trusted to work in pairs, with 6 pairs seen operating between Plymouth and Penzance! And that was about it regarding diesel observations, on what would have been a typical summer Saturday in 1960!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The last regular steam passenger working from Laira (apart from failures and the SR lines) was the daily Plymouth - Goodrington Sands summer extra in 1963. I have a shot taken as a child of 6998 'Burton Agnes Hall' working it at North Rd.

I always wondered where Burton Agnes was - only discovered it many years later when driving in E Yorks. The net was certainly cast well out of GWR territory when desperately looking for 'Hall' names.

 

[70014IronDuke]

From memory, my family traveled Reading to Paignton on holiday in 1960. Certainly steam hauled, on this occasion by Castle 5049 Earl of Plymouth.

On the return, l was very impressed to see Warship D 800 Sir Brian Robertson at the head of our train, so l guess the writing was already on the wall, even then.

By the time l stopped trainspotting, around 1963, diesel haulage was virtually the norm on the Berks & Hants.

Nobody would question steam haulage in 1960 - that would have been expected. And even 61.

But an awful lot happened in the years 1960-62: BRB were out to eliminate 3 cyl and 4 cyl express steam locos and effectively waged war on them.

1962 was a vicious year in terms of withdrawals of Class 7 and 8s: on the WR, all the Kings went, many of the Castles (is there a sympathy emojee for @Taunton ? I suppose this will do ); on the SR all the Schools, Lord Nelsons and King Arthurs (I know they were only 2-cyl, but they were still part of the cull). The LM and ER were a bit slower to rid themselves totally of big engines, but there too all the Princess pacifics and many of the Gresley pacifics had gone by New Year's Day 1963.

Thanks very much for the replies and info @70014IronDuke and @Gloster - seems that if I had been lucky, it would have been when I was still too young to remember. Oh well, it was nice to at least entertain the idea for a while

Graham

One thing that worked against your hopes when it comes to the far south west is that it was extra expensive to ship coal to the region.

So BR(W) went out to dieselise west of Exeter as a priority. Hence the rapid disappearance of steam in Devon and, especially, Cornwall. You certainly had steam hanging around at places like Gloucester, Worcester and Oxley (Wolverhampton) - even Bristol - at ex-GWR sheds into 1965 - even if it was nothing like it was in, say 1961 - but there were still some remnants. However, in the far south west, by then it was all over, bar an unusual substitution for a diesel failure

There is a fascinating book by Richard Woodley titled “The Day of the Holiday Express” which recalls the events on one summer Saturday (9th July 1960) on the Western Region. Excluding DMUs, what is surprising is how few diesels were recorded that day on the hundreds of trains observed. Of the 24 Warships then in stock 21 were seen on passenger trains, plus 3 of the 5 NBL D600s. The D6300s seemed only to be trusted to work in pairs, with 6 pairs seen operating between Plymouth and Penzance! And that was about it regarding diesel observations, on what would have been a typical summer Saturday in 1960!

How few? I'd say 21 seen working out of 24 was a near-record availability metric!

But again, it to have so many of the class in the far south west (as opposed to more doing Paddington - Bristol only or Birmingham turns) shows how determined the traffic dept was to use what diesels they had in the south west.

 

[D Williams]

There is a fascinating book by Richard Woodley titled “The Day of the Holiday Express” which recalls the events on one summer Saturday (9th July 1960) on the Western Region. Excluding DMUs, what is surprising is how few diesels were recorded that day on the hundreds of trains observed. Of the 24 Warships then in stock 21 were seen on passenger trains, plus 3 of the 5 NBL D600s. The D6300s seemed only to be trusted to work in pairs, with 6 pairs seen operating between Plymouth and Penzance! And that was about it regarding diesel observations, on what would have been a typical summer Saturday in 1960!

The D63xx were a 1000hp diesel and hopelessly underpowered for any serious work hence they were often operated in pairs on the main line to improve reliability. They replaced the 45xx on the branch lines in Cornwall before the DMU's arrived. A less than satisfactory design.

 

[Carbean]

In the West Country there must have been a lot of unbalanced workings on the lines to the resorts on Saturdays. Most of the trains departed before mid day (in those days you had to be out of your accommodation by 0900 as landlady needed to clean and redo beds) but people started to arrive after 1500 so there must have been a lot of light engine movements and empty stock movements at beginning and end of the day.

 

[Gloster]

In the West Country there must have been a lot of unbalanced workings on the lines to the resorts on Saturdays. Most of the trains departed before mid day (in those days you had to be out of your accommodation by 0900 as landlady needed to clean and redo beds) but people started to arrive after 1500 so there must have been a lot of light engine movements and empty stock movements at beginning and end of the day.

Even as late as the 1980s trains would come down from the north overnight and then form late morning or afternoon trains back again. The earliest trains in the morning (remember, they weren’t that early because they are holiday trains) would be formed of locos and coaches that had been sitting around at Newton Abbot, Plymouth or Penzance since the previous weekend.

 

[Carbean]

Even as late as the 1980s trains would come down from the north overnight and then form late morning or afternoon trains back again. The earliest trains in the morning (remember, they weren’t that early because they are holiday trains) would be formed of locos and coaches that had been sitting around at Newton Abbot, Plymouth or Penzance since the previous weekend.

On the subject of Saturday West Country holiday expresses, Oxley (Wolverhampton) shed received 3 Britannia Pacifics for their holiday traffic. They only worked as far as Bristol and back, this was their only duty and I think they did no other work until following Saturday.

 

[Harvester]

On the subject of Saturday West Country holiday expresses, Oxley (Wolverhampton) shed received 3 Britannia Pacifics for their holiday traffic. They only worked as far as Bristol and back, this was their only duty and I think they did no other work until following Saturday.

This would have been in the summer of 1965 when Britannias 70045/47/53 were allocated to Oxley! On the final Saturday of that year’s summer timetable (4/9/1965) the last serviceable Castle 7029 was turned out to work the 12:30 pm Penzance-Wolverhampton forward from Bristol. Two years earlier on Saturday 13th July 1963, Laira’s last surviving Castle 7022 worked what was probably the last long distance steam hauled passenger train from the southwest. It took over the 6.10 am Penzance-Liverpool at Plymouth and worked through to Shrewsbury.

 

[Magdalia]

The Modernisation Plan was delivered through area schemes devised by the regions and approved by the British Transport Commission.

On the Western Region area 1 was Devon and Cornwall, area 2 was Bristol and area 3 was Shrewsbury and South Wales.

 

[6Gman]

Even as late as the 1980s trains would come down from the north overnight and then form late morning or afternoon trains back again. The earliest trains in the morning (remember, they weren’t that early because they are holiday trains) would be formed of locos and coaches that had been sitting around at Newton Abbot, Plymouth or Penzance since the previous weekend.

Xpress Publishing produced two volumes (still available I think) describing the carriage workings for Cornwall and Torbay in the 1950s. They bear out what @Gloster says above. The carriage workings varied from the absurdly tight (turning round in 2 or 3 hours after a long overnight journey) to remarkably uneconomic - literally 2 trips per fortnight! There were even "scratch" workings requiring the foreman at Newquay or Paignton simply to create stock that was unbalanced out of ... well, anything he could beg, borrow or steal!

 

[Taunton]

I think steam servicing facilities were ended west of Bristol after autumn 1964. Regarding the Britannias, I'm guessing they would not have been fitted with GWR-pattern AWS (ATC), in which case they would not have been allowed west of there anyway.

The Warships took over the initial express turns, and the Westerns in turn displaced them, but what really cleared out the rest of the summer extras and much else were the Hymeks, which moved across from freight turns on summer Saturdays

Most of the trains departed before mid day (in those days you had to be out of your accommodation by 0900 as landlady needed to clean and redo beds) but people started to arrive after 1500

The problem guests (setting aside those morose landladies in the cheaper accommodation for whom all guests were problems) were those from the north who came on the Friday overnight trains, turning up at 7am Saturday. They weren't welcome until the afternoon, and the calamity was if it was raining and they couldn't go on the beach. Taxis were sold out, cafes became completely full, nobody would leave - chaos.

 

[randyrippley]

There is a fascinating book by Richard Woodley titled “The Day of the Holiday Express” which recalls the events on one summer Saturday (9th July 1960) on the Western Region. Excluding DMUs, what is surprising is how few diesels were recorded that day on the hundreds of trains observed. Of the 24 Warships then in stock 21 were seen on passenger trains, plus 3 of the 5 NBL D600s. The D6300s seemed only to be trusted to work in pairs, with 6 pairs seen operating between Plymouth and Penzance! And that was about it regarding diesel observations, on what would have been a typical summer Saturday in 1960!

When new the D6300s were deliberately used in pairs on expresses until enough Warships became available. As stated upthread eliminating the express steam locos was priority

 

[nretsew]

Thanks everyone, it's been really fascinating reading all the replies.

Graham

 

[Carbean]

There is a fascinating book by Richard Woodley titled “The Day of the Holiday Express” which recalls the events on one summer Saturday (9th July 1960) on the Western Region.

I ordered book following review by "Harvester" and it arrived today. Very interesting and well researched.

 

[D Williams]

"Summer Saturdays in the West", David and Charles . This is still available from second hand book sellers at giveaway prices. What is notable in this age of the "minimum railway " was the amount of infrastructure that only saw use in the summer holiday period.