East Anglia fleet future cascade options

[anti-pacer]

They were back in the days of the "WAGN" franchise, but that was prior to the SRA reorganisation of franchises in April 2004.

The more recent change is that TfL took over some of the West Anglia inner services as part of the LO expansion, but the longer distance West Anglia stuff remains with what we'll shortly be calling 'East Anglia'.

Wouldn't "Abellio Eastern" be a more apt name for this franchise?

Essex and Herts are not exactly East Anglia are they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the prevalence of Shoegear across the electrostar fleet, I wouldn't be surprised if the 379 bogie was just a normal one without the shoegear beam, as opposed to a new design.

As a minor point of detail, (something I meant to comment on after a discussion in a different earlier thread), the shoe beam on Electrostar or Desiro UK doesn't fully support the shoe, the shoe arm is pivoted at the inboard end under the bogie, and on the units with automatically retractable shoe gear, the actuating mechanism is also under the bogie.

What the shoe beam does is carry a stop bracket that limits the vertical travel of the shoe when it runs off the third rail, and it also prevents it moving in a fore and aft direction. When in contact with the third rail, the shoe is in mid travel and 'floating' with respect to the shoe beam.

Various older types of dual voltage stock have more of the mechanism supported on the beam, but not the units I mentioned above. So there could be work to do on the bogie as well as fitting a shoe beam, more so if it has to be remotely retractable.

The further development that is seen on the Desiro City does away with the shoe beam, and everything is connected to the bogie.

 

[Class 466]

I hear the 465's reliability is beginning to decline now, so I doubt Merseyrail (or rather, the press) would be particularly happy about getting them. The 365's however are mid life so an add on of a couple of 465s to make up numbers would be a less bitter pill to swallow.

In terms of 465 Reliability, they are still performing well, The 465/0/1s are doing much better than the Metro Cammell built units. In the past week I've had 5 seperate 465/9s with one coaches traction motors isolated... I wouldn't be surprised if they went before the units modified by Hitachi in 2008/9.

 

[southern442]

And here's the bet that not long after those 321s are scrapped, we find ourselves short of trains again.

Madness.

I think the DfT can't get it into their heads that not everybody in the UK knows everything their is to know about trains. The fact is, if you refurbish a train heavily enough, not only will it be kept running for a while, hardly anyone will notice that it's old. If you get a 321 and do it up as well as SWT did their 455's, and give it new traction motors and air conditioning, restyle the front end a bit maybe, you could call it a brand new train and bring it into service on ATW or somewhere, and none of the commuters will realise that it was built in the 90's, plus it would give it another 10-15 years of life.

 

[northwichcat]

Wouldn't "Abellio Eastern" be a more apt name for this franchise?

Essex and Herts are not exactly East Anglia are they?

Since when has any TOC name fully reflected all the routes they run?

 

[Brian Aylott]

No, Scotland's rolling stock situation is settled now for a long time. The interesting possibility opened up here for us is that the Stadler product could be the ideal replacement for the HSTs when the time comes a decade from now. A fleet of articulated 6x23m equivalent 100mph bi-mode InterCity sets would be able to use the wires between Dunblane and Aberdeen/Inverness while still being able to run to Edinburgh via Fife.

It is not settled - the train plan changed last year and has already changed again this year
There is no doubt that the 360s are possibilties for Scotrail
Brian

 

[notlob.divad]

One thing I am wondering is if the investment in new trains is a policy by the DfT in an attempt to bring down the leasing costs for the TOCs. If there is a surplus of useable units, particularly as coherent fleets owned by differing ROSCOs, it gives the TOCs some leverage when negotiating leasing costs.

 

[1179_Clee2]

The 319s are already starting to hit the tail end of the bathtub curve and I bet the managers at ATN are silently fist pumping now that they can probably get DDA compliant stock which doesn't need an extensive refurbishment.

The 321s will be 31 years old when they leave service with Anglia; that's not exactly mid life, is it? If they go somewhere else even on a short term placement (eg 3-4 years) they're well into the traditionally accepted age at which they can be withdrawn from service.

Anglia might yet keep some of its existing stock or take some of the intercity stock that's up for grabs yet.

I can not see Arriva Trains Northern managers being very happy or doing silent fist pumps as they can not get ANY trains released from Greater Anglia DMU or EMU, Class 321's included.
To start running trains on 1st April 2016 it would have to sign lease agreements to run ALL existing trains including the 20 Class 319's the previous TOC used, so 20 Class 319's are on long term lease, to the end of its franchise? AND as 4 more Class 319's have gone to Wolverton for refurb, best guess it has signed a lease for 12 more.
Unless anybody can find a get out clause, NORTHERN are stuck with 32 Class 319's it leases from Porterbrook with the possibility of newer or better trains going for SCRAP.
As ALL TOC's lease trains over fixed periods NO TOC can replace ANY of its trains with out breaking its lease agreement so most are stuck with what they have! so if ANY of Greater Anglia's cascaded train fleet is going to find a new home, you are only looking at growth within a existing TOC and not replacement trains in most cases.
NOTE Be nice to me as this is my first post.

 

[notlob.divad]

The 319s are already starting to hit the tail end of the bathtub curve and I bet the managers at ATN are silently fist pumping now that they can probably get DDA compliant stock which doesn't need an extensive refurbishment.

I would not be so sure on that. Assuming ATN have already signed leasing contracts with the ROSCO if will be incredibly difficult to get out of those without paying massive penalty clauses.

What it does do is make the upcoming franchise bids sit up and take note. The last 3 awards have all gone to bidders who proposed large amounts of new rolling stock, In this case the entire fleet. This may well become the expectation of the DfT for the next few years.

Alternatively the ROSCOs now have surplus units and they have to try and earn some money from them. Whether this means totally overhauling them to "As New" or significantly reducing the lease costs we will see.

 

[bramling]

I think the DfT can't get it into their heads that not everybody in the UK knows everything their is to know about trains. The fact is, if you refurbish a train heavily enough, not only will it be kept running for a while, hardly anyone will notice that it's old. If you get a 321 and do it up as well as SWT did their 455's, and give it new traction motors and air conditioning, restyle the front end a bit maybe, you could call it a brand new train and bring it into service on ATW or somewhere, and none of the commuters will realise that it was built in the 90's, plus it would give it another 10-15 years of life.

Yes, and neither do people really care as long as their train provides a decent travel experience.

The issue in recent years has been certain fleets have been allowed to get into a poor internal state. No doubt this is partly due to intensive usage, which brings us back to not enough trains again.

As you say, we don't hear mass complaining about SWT's class 455 (or 159) fleets because they are maintained in a presentable condition.

 

[CosherB]

I can not see Arriva Trains Northern managers being very happy or doing silent fist pumps as they can not get ANY trains released from Greater Anglia DMU or EMU, Class 321's included.
To start running trains on 1st April 2016 it would have to sign lease agreements to run ALL existing trains including the 20 Class 319's the previous TOC used, so 20 Class 319's are on long term lease, to the end of its franchise? AND as 4 more Class 319's have gone to Wolverton for refurb, best guess it has signed a lease for 12 more.
Unless anybody can find a get out clause, NORTHERN are stuck with 32 Class 319's it leases from Porterbrook with the possibility of newer or better trains going for SCRAP.
As ALL TOC's lease trains over fixed periods NO TOC can replace ANY of its trains with out breaking its lease agreement so most are stuck with what they have! so if ANY of Greater Anglia's cascaded train fleet is going to find a new home, you are only looking at growth within a existing TOC and not replacement trains in most cases.
NOTE Be nice to me as this is my first post.

Welcome to this little corner of the rail universe!

Maybe a little less "SHOUTING" would be appreciated!

 

[Astradyne]

If the company Northern lease the 319s from has more modern surplus stock .... then it will probably be in both their interests to ensure the more modern stock is utilised. If the more modern units are with a different leasing company, yep then you probably are stuffed, as the lease will no doubt contain hefty termination/variation clauses.

 

[southern442]

Yes, and neither do people really care as long as their train provides a decent travel experience.

The issue in recent years has been certain fleets have been allowed to get into a poor internal state. No doubt this is partly due to intensive usage, which brings us back to not enough trains again.

As you say, we don't hear mass complaining about SWT's class 455 (or 159) fleets because they are maintained in a presentable condition.

I'm willing to bet that if a pacer was really REALLY heavily refurbished (i.e. completely new interior, redesign the front end, maybe new plug doors, air conditioning and replace the windows) not many would notice.

(Note: I'm not saying this should happen, just that it could happen )

 

[northwichcat]

I can not see Arriva Trains Northern managers being very happy or doing silent fist pumps as they can not get ANY trains released from Greater Anglia DMU or EMU, Class 321's included.
To start running trains on 1st April 2016 it would have to sign lease agreements to run ALL existing trains including the 20 Class 319's the previous TOC used, so 20 Class 319's are on long term lease, to the end of its franchise? AND as 4 more Class 319's have gone to Wolverton for refurb, best guess it has signed a lease for 12 more.
Unless anybody can find a get out clause, NORTHERN are stuck with 32 Class 319's it leases from Porterbrook with the possibility of newer or better trains going for SCRAP.

5 of the 319s are only leased until 2020 (when the last of the new CAF EMUs should arrive), the rest are leased until 2025. Northern do have the option of taking on more 170s written in to the franchise agreement (in addition to the ones arriving from Scotrail), so they may finish up taking on the 170s released by Anglia.

As ALL TOC's lease trains over fixed periods NO TOC can replace ANY of its trains with out breaking its lease agreement so most are stuck with what they have!

As I said elsewhere there are ways around that. For instance old Northern got a lease ended early on 4 x 156s so they could go to EMT so that Northern could take on a greater number of 150s released by LM. However, finding a similar solution to offload 27 x 319s might be more difficult.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

nobody would notice.

I guess you have never been round sharp bends on a Pacer? And I'm sure people would notice they are still small 31m trains opposed to 40m or 46m trains which hold more passengers.

 

[southern442]

I guess you have never been round sharp bends on a Pacer? And I'm sure people would notice they are still small 31m trains opposed to 40m or 46m trains which hold more passengers.

Ok maybe that was a slight exaggeration but I think you get the point I was making, that as long as it doesn't feel old, people won't care.

 

[notlob.divad]

I can not see Arriva Trains Northern managers being very happy or doing silent fist pumps as they can not get ANY trains released from Greater Anglia DMU or EMU, Class 321's included.
To start running trains on 1st April 2016 it would have to sign lease agreements to run ALL existing trains including the 20 Class 319's the previous TOC used, so 20 Class 319's are on long term lease, to the end of its franchise? AND as 4 more Class 319's have gone to Wolverton for refurb, best guess it has signed a lease for 12 more.
Unless anybody can find a get out clause, NORTHERN are stuck with 32 Class 319's it leases from Porterbrook with the possibility of newer or better trains going for SCRAP.
As ALL TOC's lease trains over fixed periods NO TOC can replace ANY of its trains with out breaking its lease agreement so most are stuck with what they have! so if ANY of Greater Anglia's cascaded train fleet is going to find a new home, you are only looking at growth within a existing TOC and not replacement trains in most cases.
NOTE Be nice to me as this is my first post.

Welcome to the forum.

Agree with you on this. Northern will probably get a good look in on 2 car 170s that are being freed up as they need 18 refurbished units with

Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170

The 153s and the 156s may find their way North if demand exceeds expectations on some routes, but my guess is there are other franchises, who will be looking at them as an option to replace Pacers.

But beyond that, all of Northern's contracts will be signed by now so breaching them will include huge penalty clauses. And swapping them would be increasingly complex because as has been pointed out the fleet they have and the fleet coming available are owned by different ROSCOs.

 

[class387]

my bold

I know that opinion is subjective but I'm afraid I find this statement laughable. Have you ever used HEX, particularly First class?

Yes, both classes, and given the premium paid, even with the cheapest tickets I was not impressed.

While the atmosphere (lighting, colours etc) was good, I found that the train lacked basic amenities in Standard such as tables. The seats are unsupportive and I would much prefer the feel of the 379 with comfortable seats aligned with windows and tables.

I personally prefer a 2+1 layout in First than the 1+1 in the 332s. There are people who prefer a bay of 4 and I have never seen someone who wanted a bay of 2 in a 2+1 layout not get one. Again, I found the seats unsupportive.

Also, given the issue about the cracks earlier this year, something never found before on Electrostars to my knowledge, I think 379s could be more reliable. They are also similar to the 387s on the GWR services which could be useful.

 

[northwichcat]

The 153s and the 156s may find their way North if demand exceeds expectations on some routes, but my guess is there are other franchises, who will be looking at them as an option to replace Pacers.

I don't think 153s will rejoin the Northern fleet unless a ROSCO looks at the option of creating 2 car sets with PRM modifications and I don't think any ROSCO has committed to that. There were reports some of the body shells are in a very poor state.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think 153s will rejoin the Northern fleet unless a ROSCO looks at the option of creating 2 car sets with PRM modifications and I don't think any ROSCO has committed to that. There were reports some of the body shells are in a very poor state.

The retention of the 7 155s (but with no newly-reformed from 153s in addition) was one of the big surprises of the new Northern franchise. If it wasn't for one 155 already going for refurbishment I'd not be surprised to see the Anglia 156s push the 155s out.

The 155 being refurbished should give some idea of what would be required to create a 2 or 3-car 153 lash-up though.

 

[ginger]

Oh the unbridled joy of reading this feed..........and after being shot down in the past so many times for even daring to suggest that the knackered fleet needed replacing.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, both classes, and given the premium paid, even with the cheapest tickets I was not impressed.

While the atmosphere (lighting, colours etc) was good, I found that the train lacked basic amenities in Standard such as tables. The seats are unsupportive and I would much prefer the feel of the 379 with comfortable seats aligned with windows and tables.

I personally prefer a 2+1 layout in First than the 1+1 in the 332s. There are people who prefer a bay of 4 and I have never seen someone who wanted a bay of 2 in a 2+1 layout not get one. Again, I found the seats unsupportive.

Also, given the issue about the cracks earlier this year, something never found before on Electrostars to my knowledge, I think 379s could be more reliable. They are also similar to the 387s on the GWR services which could be useful.

my bold

Most of this is about opinions - you will gather from my comments previously that I don't agree albeit I respect your right to your own view.

With respect to the text I emboldened you are aware I assume that the 332s are owned and operated by Heathrow Express which is absolutely nothing to do with GWR. The only linkage is joint operation of Heathrow Connect using HEX-owned 360s which will cease when Crossrail opens....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just a quick point for those East Anglians over the moon about being able to give their old stock to someone else for a change - it isn't actually the first time you've passed things down, remember 307s and 308s to Yorkshire, 305s to Manchester and Scotland, 309s to Manchester and Brum...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think 153s will rejoin the Northern fleet unless a ROSCO looks at the option of creating 2 car sets with PRM modifications and I don't think any ROSCO has committed to that. There were reports some of the body shells are in a very poor state.

If we can build anything new, even D trains, scrap the lot of the nasty things.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh the unbridled joy of reading this feed..........and after being shot down in the past so many times for even daring to suggest that the knackered fleet needed replacing.

The idea of using very high quality new rolling stock even on branches is very European in concept - particularly if it comes with a new Taktfahrplan. I wonder if Abellio/NS encouraged a trial? I wonder when the first FLIRT will call at Berney Arms?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[northwichcat]

If we can build anything new, even D trains, scrap the lot of the nasty things.

So how many of these: https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3796/9934871163_60b0e66be5_b.jpg would you like for Marston Vale?

 

[Dave1987]

Oh the unbridled joy of reading this feed..........and after being shot down in the past so many times for even daring to suggest that the knackered fleet needed replacing.

It seems your old Nemesis is the one to order it as well. No one said that a brand new fleet wouldn't have been great. It was a great surprise to hear the entire fleet was going to be replaced. Your choice of words and sentiment towards the incumbent franchise holder also was a lot of the reasons people were so hostile towards you.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh the unbridled joy of reading this feed..........and after being shot down in the past so many times for even daring to suggest that the knackered fleet needed replacing.

There's not yet any evidence that any of the Anglia trains need withdrawing opposed to refurbishing. Note that LM withdrew most of their 150s ages ago but they are still all in service and will continue to be for a few years yet.

 

[The Ham]

There's not yet any evidence that any of the Anglia trains need withdrawing opposed to refurbishing. Note that LM withdrew most of their 150s ages ago but they are still all in service and will continue to be for a few years yet.

I have even suggested that units which are due to be replaced with new units are replaced only to find themselves carrying on running the same services if passenger growth is higher than expected...

 

[anti-pacer]

Yes, both classes, and given the premium paid, even with the cheapest tickets I was not impressed.

While the atmosphere (lighting, colours etc) was good, I found that the train lacked basic amenities in Standard such as tables. The seats are unsupportive and I would much prefer the feel of the 379 with comfortable seats aligned with windows and tables.

I personally prefer a 2+1 layout in First than the 1+1 in the 332s. There are people who prefer a bay of 4 and I have never seen someone who wanted a bay of 2 in a 2+1 layout not get one. Again, I found the seats unsupportive.

Also, given the issue about the cracks earlier this year, something never found before on Electrostars to my knowledge, I think 379s could be more reliable. They are also similar to the 387s on the GWR services which could be useful.

You're moaning about the lack of tables on a train that takes less than 25 minutes end to end?

The mind boggles!

 

[northwichcat]

How many 170's are GA going to be releasing and would EMT be a good place for them to use on Norwich-Nottingham/Liverpool services? It's not as if they haven't been used on that route before.

4 x 2 car and 8 x 3 car so not enough to take over 158 duties on that route.

 

[anti-pacer]

4 x 2 car and 8 x 3 car so not enough to take over 158 duties on that route.

Who do you think will get them?