East Coast Electrification in the 60s?

[HSTEd]

Well, I was reading the proceedings of a BTC meeting in 1960 which seemed to suggest that ECML electrification as far as York and Leeds was going to progress at a similar time to the WCML project.

Does anyone know what happened to the scheme?
It would seem that it would have rather drastically effected the histoy of British railways if the scheme had been progressed that early on. (HST would likely have been a purely Western region job, and it is likely some kind of electric pseudo HST would have been produced).

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC ECML electrification was in the Modernisation Plan but dropped some years later before any work was done. Hence the Deltics were bought as a stopgap measure to provide faster services for the next 20 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

ECML electrification was certainly behind MML electrification in the plan as late as the early 80s; BedPan wiring was very much stage 1 of a bigger plan, all driven by LM region. It all changed with Sectorisation in 1982.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, I was reading the proceedings of a BTC meeting in 1960 which seemed to suggest that ECML electrification as far as York and Leeds was going to progress at a similar time to the WCML project.

Does anyone know what happened to the scheme?
It would seem that it would have rather drastically effected the histoy of British railways if the scheme had been progressed that early on. (HST would likely have been a purely Western region job, and it is likely some kind of electric pseudo HST would have been produced).

From what I remember, BR had fallen into its trough of despond by 1961 and reviewed all major projects (those funded by the 1955 modernisation plan).
As a result the WCML scheme was cut back and the ECML scheme shelved.
It did survive in the sense that Phase 1 (GN suburban) was eventually approved in the 1970s and the rest of the line in the 1980s.

The cut back on the WCML removed PSBs in the Trent Valley and is why we ended up with electro-mechanical boxes for so long at Stockport, Stafford, Lichfield and elsewhere until the recent WCRM upgrade (some of them are still there!).
It was also the time when the BTC called a halt to building useless marshalling yards and buying myriads of different diesel loco designs.
And it was when a certain Dr Richard Beeching arrived.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Wasn't there some sort of DC electrification system in the NE using overhead wires? Somewhere?
I don't mean the Tyneside coast loop. That had a little bit of overhead in the "Dockside Branch" I remember. The loco is in the Nat. R. Mus.

 

[HSTEd]

There was the 1500V electrification operated on industrial railway by the NCB to transport coal to the docks a couple of miles from the Colliery, but thats all I know of beyond the Tyneside Electric third rail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wasn't there some sort of DC electrification system in the NE using overhead wires? Somewhere?
I don't mean the Tyneside coast loop. That had a little bit of overhead in the "Dockside Branch" I remember. The loco is in the Nat. R. Mus.

Shildon to Newport, 1.5kV DC overhead.
From Wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

Shildon to Newport
This line ran from Shildon (County Durham) to Newport (near Middlesbrough). The route was initially over the 1825 Stockton-to-Darlington line, then via Simpasture Junction (the former Clarence railway) through Carlton, Carlton Junction to Carlton South Junction, Bowesfield West Junction to Bowesfield Junction, through Thornaby and ending at Erimus Yard (Newport East). In the wake of the electrification of Tyneside by the NER, this coal-carrying line was electrified between 1 July 1915 and 1 January 1916 as a planned precursor to electrifying NER's busy York to Newcastle main line (part of the ECML). The LNER removed this electrification system in 1935 (between 7 January and 8 July); the decline in the coal market made it economically unfeasible to undertake the significant renewals required to continue electric operation. The locomotives were stored for other electrified routes

 

[Clarence Yard]

To return to the original question, by the end of 1959 the finances of the railway were getting in a very poor state and in early 1960 the Government set up a special advisory group (the Stedeford Group, named after its chairman) to look into various aspects, including the modernisation scheme, which was not producing the expected results.

Stedeford recommended a halt to several schemes and the ECML electrification was one. The Government acted on these recommendations and the BTC had to comply. From the 1961 budget onwards, modernisation scheme funding was not as generous as before and now subject to quite close scrutiny.

The mishandling of the modernisation monies and the inability of the then railway to understand, let alone explain its cost base (sounds familiar?) set up the mistrust between Government and the industry that still lingers on today.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Wasn't there some sort of DC electrification system in the NE using overhead wires? Somewhere?
I don't mean the Tyneside coast loop. That had a little bit of overhead in the "Dockside Branch" I remember. The loco is in the Nat. R. Mus.

Yes.
There was another short electrified line in the east of Newcastle known as the "Quayside Branch" which connected the ECML (halfway between Manors station and Heaton Station, west of the "Riverside Junction", at "Red Barn Tunnel") with the Quays on the River Tyne, used solely for freight. It was constructed on a steep gradient and was largely in 2 tunnels taking a 'U' shaped curve between the mainline and river. It was powered by both 3rd rail and overhead supplies. I believe that only two locomotives were built to operate on the dual power system, and yes, you are quite right that one of them is in the national museum!

Here's a rare image of the northern portal to the branch on the ECML, with one of the 2 locomotives, and clearly showing both overhead and 3rd rail power supplies : https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5795703613/in/set-72157626756942193. Today's ECML still runs along the lines in the left of this image, and the rightmost lines are now occupied by the T&W Metro. The unusually two-angled tunnel portal in the centre is still visible and in use as the slow line to Heaton Depot.

It had been highly unsatisfactory as a steam-powered branch. It is reported that the means for a driver of a steam loco to determine if their engine was actually moving, and in which direction, was to hold the fireman's shovel out the cab door and feel the motion of the tunnel wall against the blade of the shovel!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The much loved Clacton 309 untis were prototypes for London - Leeds (useless fact of the day)

 

[BritishRail83]

The much loved Clacton 309 untis were prototypes for London - Leeds (useless fact of the day)

Useful fact i think. i never knew that about the 309's. Used to love the journey to Clacton From Liverpool street.

 

[slilley]

Well, I was reading the proceedings of a BTC meeting in 1960 which seemed to suggest that ECML electrification as far as York and Leeds was going to progress at a similar time to the WCML project.

Does anyone know what happened to the scheme?
It would seem that it would have rather drastically effected the histoy of British railways if the scheme had been progressed that early on. (HST would likely have been a purely Western region job, and it is likely some kind of electric pseudo HST would have been produced).

If you go to the National Archives at Kew and look at files such as those of the Supply Committee, Works & Equipment Committee, and the Technical Committee along with the minutes of the Eastern Region Board you will see that the ECML electrification was a "live" project during the late 1950s and into the 1960s. It then seems and it is some while since I was reading through these papers that the scheme was put on the back burner so to speak I think around 1962. As always the BTC/BR was at the whim of the Treasury.

As for the HST there are a whole number of files relating to the work of the New Locomotive & Multiple-Unit Development New Construction of Rolling Stock working party. If you have a read of those you will get a pretty good idea of the thinking of BR as to its future loco and multiple unit requirements in the period 1969-1973.

Best wishes

Simon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To return to the original question, by the end of 1959 the finances of the railway were getting in a very poor state and in early 1960 the Government set up a special advisory group (the Stedeford Group, named after its chairman) to look into various aspects, including the modernisation scheme, which was not producing the expected results.

Stedeford recommended a halt to several schemes and the ECML electrification was one. The Government acted on these recommendations and the BTC had to comply. From the 1961 budget onwards, modernisation scheme funding was not as generous as before and now subject to quite close scrutiny.

The mishandling of the modernisation monies and the inability of the then railway to understand, let alone explain its cost base (sounds familiar?) set up the mistrust between Government and the industry that still lingers on today.

Indeed. The Pilot Scheme had already been abandoned on 23/5/1957 and replaced by a more daring scheme of replacing steam area by area without thoroughly testing small batches of locos first. As a result when with the benefit of hindsight you read various BR committee minutes where these locos are being ordered you do hear a little voice in your head saying " I'm not sure you wanted to do that". The Claytons being a case in point.

Simon

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The cost overuns on the West Coast 1960's modernisation were not quite as bad as the more recent Railtrack fiasco - but does explain why some stations like Crewe , Warrington etc only got a very basic upgrade , compared to the full job done at say Coventry and Stafford.
The late Gerry Fiennes mentioned he had a team at Kings Cross , working up the details of the stillborn EC scheme - who got increasingly demotivated as time went on. Having said that - the GN electric scheme of the mid 1970's was a huge morale booster for BR at the time - and led to good things in an incremental way ....

 

[Taunton]

The much loved Clacton 309 units were prototypes for London - Leeds

I don't know if they were intended for the fastest services all the way to Leeds, but there was certainly a BTC publicity painting I recall of a maroon 309 arriving at Grantham with a blue Class 81 heading the other way.

 

[Grumpy]

Well, I was reading the proceedings of a BTC meeting in 1960 which seemed to suggest that ECML electrification as far as York and Leeds was going to progress at a similar time to the WCML project.

Does anyone know what happened to the scheme?
It would seem that it would have rather drastically effected the histoy of British railways if the scheme had been progressed that early on. (HST would likely have been a purely Western region job, and it is likely some kind of electric pseudo HST would have been produced).

There was certainly a fair bit of feasibility work done in the 1950's and 1960's on electrifying the GN. The NER even spent money on raising some bridges south of Leeds. When I worked for BR I remember reading a feasibility report-the only part that sticks in my mind was they planned to electrify Grantham-Colwick for freight.