East Coast - fast trains stopping vs fast trains not stopping

[pt_mad]

Just picked up a copy of the new East Coast timetable and although I suspect there are very few changes I am really surprised at the amount of fast stoppers at places like Northallerton at Retford.

Why do East Coast stop fast off peak services at these stations?

Northallerton has a slow service anyway doesn't it?

Seems the smaller sized West Coast stations got such a rough deal in comparison.

Even Newark Northgate has a couple of fast services every hour in each direction yet most of the smaller West Coast stations, particularly along the Trent Valley have no fast off peak stoppers at all.

Is there likely to be a time when East Coast decide to run everything fast with few stops just as Virgin do?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Retford only gets 1 train every 2 hours, which calls at all stations and runs to York only, hardly a remarkable service.

Northallerton is hourly on the Newcastle (sometimes extended to Edinburgh) stopper IIRC. It does however offer decent connections to Middlesbrough (I think it's something like 5 mins wait northbound and 15 mins southbound) as well as serving a lot of the communities around that part of North Yorkshire. Aside from the 5 a day Grand Central service no other trains whatsoever serve it heading for London, unlike what you seem to imply in your OP.

It may just be rumours but there has for a long time been talk of extending FCC services from Peterborough to Donny serving the intermediate stations removing them from EC trains, but it's never taken off.

One thought though is should the WCML be more like the ECML instead of vice versa - I remember the backlash locally when Nuneaton lost its hourly London fast in 2008; I can't imagine it'll repeat on the East Coast. I imagine also that Grantham (with connections to Nottingham, Sleaford, Boston etc) and Newark for Lincoln do a very fine trade with their services currently.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Who else would serve Retford then? It gets a woeful service.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think some would like to see that but it will depend on what happens to the remainder of FCC after the Thameslink changes. I can see East Coast running both semi fast and fast services south of Doncaster. The upgrade of semi fast services to Intercity units that East Coast "have" will make it easier for this to happen, particularly if they are extended north of Peterborough towards Lincoln/Doncaster and even York/Leeds.

 

[pt_mad]

The stopper I was talking about at Northallerton was the TPE service. I know its no good for London etc but is great for York and intermediate stations going north.

It just surprises me thats all. 225 express train stops at Northallerton in the middle of the day for how many passengers? Can't imagine there would be hordes of people for London at that time. Others could just get TPE and connect.

If Virgin deem Nuneaton too quiet for stopping how can East Coast justify stopping one fast an hour for so few passengers?

As for Retford again seems crazy stopping even just a two hourly fast train in the middle of the day when Virgin won't stop anything in the Trent Valley.

I remember the Nuneaton rail group were campaigning for a two hourly pendolino stopper at worst and it was refused!


Maybe you're right Matt and it'd be better rather than East Coast, Great Western etc deciding to run things fast with no stops it'd be better if Virgin started to stop things at intermediate stations and thus follow suit with other express operators.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The stopper I was talking about at Northallerton was the TPE service. I know its no good for London etc but is great for York and intermediate stations going north.

However as has been established it serves as a great connection for Teesside as it is, which would be lost should it not call. Further, what would you gain by not calling? It would get you maybe 5 or 6 minutes (when the other fast trains an hour already have handsome journey times to Newcastle and Scotland); at the cost of serving a town well with a population of getting on for 150,000, and forcing more people onto the already busy 3-car TPE trains, at the cost of their own time. The overriding factor that will control a lot of this is that if there weren't worthwhile, EC could take measures to remove the calls (ditto for the Newark and Grantham trains), however something must be going OK on them as they seem perfectly happy to continue to serve it. I would also imagine they'll get a share of the revenue too, always enticing.

It just surprises me thats all. 225 express train stops at Northallerton in the middle of the day for how many passengers? Can't imagine there would be hordes of people for London at that time. Others could just get TPE and connect.

Virgin use their huge 125mph tilting trains to serve Penrith in the off-peak, and from experience over years they serve not too many people (with a lot less connections than Northallerton and no rail ones at all), and it's served roughly hourly or better as it is by TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland services. I would imagine NTR generates a lot more custom than PNR due to its size, catchment area and connections - it isn't East Coast in the wrong here!

If Virgin deem Nuneaton too quiet for stopping how can East Coast justify stopping one fast an hour for so few passengers?

Virgin's timetable is exceptionally London-centric. EC's is a lot more spread out. Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds etc all get their fast trains to London an hour with great journey times and limited calls (usually a mix of three or four over the course of the whole journey), and slower trains an hour still with a decent journey time but offering much better connectivity by serving some smaller stops on the route, which Virgin's timetable neglects. This from EC is only at the expense of 10-15 minutes tops at a guess, but is much more convenient for passengers.

As for Retford again seems crazy stopping even just a two hourly fast train in the middle of the day when Virgin won't stop anything in the Trent Valley.
Just my opinion but I don't think stopping them simply because nothing else would serve the station off peak is a reason to stop them? They didn't bother about Atherstone having no service for a number of years!!!

Retford is a huge town and a huge station compared to Atherstone. A better comparison would be leaving Tamworth with no London service at all!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A good example I think is Euston-Manchester. Northbound there are 3 trains a hour, all doing the journey end-to-end in 2h10 or less. It would be a pain to timetable (but may be decent in a recast) but I find it hard to believe that it'd be a huge inconvenience to add a Watford Jn (where the furthest north you can now get in Wolverhampton on Intercity, and nothing to Crewe etc) or Nuneaton (for Leicester too!) call, allowing for a fast service to London and great connectivity to North West England at the expense of 5-7 minutes, which would potentially still leave you with a slowest journey time of 2h15! Of the three current hourly trains, one serve Milton Keynes then Stoke, one is first stop Stoke and the other first stop Crewe. It doesn't seem right to me to have such an amount of journeys which are all so focused on time and getting people places fast at the expense of 5 minutes which could drastically improve connectivity and passenger numbers.

 

[Searle]

Seems the smaller sized West Coast stations got such a rough deal in comparison.

Even Newark Northgate has a couple of fast services every hour in each direction yet most of the smaller West Coast stations, particularly along the Trent Valley have no fast off peak stoppers at all.

Is there likely to be a time when East Coast decide to run everything fast with few stops just as Virgin do?

There is no East Coast equivalent of London Midland, which I presume is why they get these services.

Also whenever I've got off at Northallerton there has been a decent amount of passengers alighting/boarding. It is the county town of North Yorkshire after all.

 

[pt_mad]

According to Wiki Retford's population is around 21000.

Tamworth's is nearer 72000 and not even they have a fast service.


Yes as you say Virgin's model is very London-centric and its not East Coast that are in the wrong.
But why are Virgin allowed to run such a London Centric service when the other operators don't?

Even the fast services on East Coast factor in 4 stops. I'm sure to stop the odd extra service at Nuneaton would only take off 5 minutes but that is cosidered too much time waisted!

All in the name of fun.

 

[yorkie]

If Virgin deem Nuneaton too quiet for stopping how can East Coast justify stopping one fast an hour for so few passengers?

As for Retford again seems crazy stopping even just a two hourly fast train in the middle of the day when Virgin won't stop anything in the Trent Valley.

What's your suggestion for Retford then?

 

[pt_mad]

What's your suggestion for Retford then?

I am not suggesting but I am surprised they stop a two hourly fast in each direction there.

I suppose if East Coast took Virgin's model there might be two or three fast stoppers in the morning and evening and maybe a couple in the middle of the day??

I don't know about you but I think that if Virgin were running the fast services the smaller stations wouldn't enjoy the service they do.

 

[mister-sparky]

Most likely because there are ALOT more stations on the WCML than the ECML... They can't all have hourly or more services, they'd be far too slow.

 

[HSTEd]

There is no capacity in the line for slow stoppers, remember that the line is, north of Stoke Tunnel, effectively a two track railway for almost all of its length.

The station spacings are such that 125mph loco hauled rolling stock manages to beat 90mph units easily on travel times and would almost certainly beat 100mph units.
This is one of the reasons that absurd idea to run FCC Commuter units to Doncaster never took off, additionally it would extend the journey time so much that it would push Grantham and Newark decisively out of the commuter belt, crashing the traffic on the route.

Remember that Grantham is further north than Birmingham and is the largest town for miles around, It is hardly equivalent to Nuneaton which is south of Birmingham and a satellite of said conurbation.

 

[tbtc]

There is no East Coast equivalent of London Midland, which I presume is why they get these services

That's the whole thread answered in a nutshell.

Remember that Grantham is further north than Birmingham and is the largest town for miles around, It is hardly equivalent to Nuneaton which is south of Birmingham and a satellite of said conurbation.

Nuneaton could act as a railhead for a reasonably sized population.

As you say, there's nowhere of any size near Grantham so arguably less justification for calling there.

Nuneaton south of Birmingham? I'd have said east, certainly not south.

 

[Eagle]

It is hardly equivalent to Nuneaton which is south of Birmingham and a satellite of said conurbation.

Nuneaton is slightly to the north of Birmingham. (East-northeast, to be precise.)

Nuneaton could act as a railhead for a reasonably sized population.

A rather one-sided railhead though, as anyone from south or west of Nuneaton would find Birmingham or Coventry to be a much more convenient railhead.

 

[tbtc]

A rather one-sided railhead though, as anyone from south or west of Nuneaton would find Birmingham or Coventry to be a much more convenient railhead.

Agreed, although it may be easier to drive to than negotiating a drive into Birmingham or Coventry? (I speak hypothetically, having not done the drive, just a suggestion that sometimes smaller places are easier for car drivers to get to)

 

[jaigee]

There is no East Coast equivalent of London Midland, which I presume is why they get these services.

London Midland run a woefully slow, and of diabolic connectivity, service from Rugby northwards. Since their speed-up South of Rugby, they themselves are now London-centric, as well as Virgin.

 

[MCR247]

At the end of the day, this thread is comparing apples and pears as the WCML and ECML are nothing alike

 

[WestCountry]

I suppose if East Coast took Virgin's model there might be two or three fast stoppers in the morning and evening and maybe a couple in the middle of the day??

Yes, and that would be all of the ECML services from Retford for the whole day. It's not like the WCML where the LM stoppers serve anywhere Virgin don't - if EC don't call, there simply aren't any trains.

 

[Alfie1014]

There was a recent discussion on WCML calling patterns here recenty. But the nub of the issue is that there are 12 trains per hour on the Fast Lines out of Euston in the off peak (more in the peak hours). In the down direction they are flighted at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:20 with the Manchester service leading the pack. Putting Watford stops in any of these has a knock on effect on the following trains in the flight due to there only being one platform on the FLs in each direction at Watford.

Nuneaton stops are difficult to path too, with the obvious train being the North Wales service but with many of these only 5 car Voyagers off peak extra stops could overload them. More stops may have to wait for new longer trains.

Whereas on the ECML off peak there are only 6 or some hours 7 fast trains an hour, therefore it's enevitable that some will have to stop at the smaller stations as there are no slower services between Peterborough and Doncaster.

Timetables will always be a compromise and every change results in loosers as well as winners and like it or not 80% of all journeys on the network are to/from London so many services will be capital centric.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

There is no East Coast equivalent of London Midland, which I presume is why they get these services.

End of thread

 

[pt_mad]

London Midland run a woefully slow, and of diabolic connectivity, service from Rugby northwards. Since their speed-up South of Rugby, they themselves are now London-centric, as well as Virgin.

Shame LM couldn't source or attempt to source some 125mph tilting stock themselves.

 

[The Planner]

To use where? On the slows north of Rugby whilst stopping at Nuneaton, Tamuff etc...? What would be the point?

 

[Eagle]

To use where? On the slows north of Rugby whilst stopping at Nuneaton, Tamuff etc...? What would be the point?

Of course you can stop at Nuneaton on the fasts You just have to find a time to slot it in between the 6tph that Virgin operates nonstop through Nuneaton on the fasts...

 

[pt_mad]

To use where? On the slows north of Rugby whilst stopping at Nuneaton, Tamuff etc...? What would be the point?

To use south of Rugby on the fasts.

 

[The Planner]

Bloody hell, just how many fast paths do we have left?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Would there be much gain though? I've just had a quick glance through the (passenger) timetable and London Midland at 110mph and Virgin at 125mph between both Rugby and Keynes and Keynes and Euston show little more than 3 or 4 mins difference overall...

In fact, as an example, the 0632 Rugby-Euston service takes 20 mins RUG-MKC and 36 mins MKC-EUS (there's about 4 mins slack in that at a guess; we'll say 31 is an optimum run) and an off-peak LM takes 21 and 35 respectively!

 

[Bevan Price]

I don't think VT, LM, ECML get much choice - service levels & patterns are largely specified by DfT not TOC's.

 

[D1009]

Yes, and that would be all of the ECML services from Retford for the whole day. It's not like the WCML where the LM stoppers serve anywhere Virgin don't - if EC don't call, there simply aren't any trains.

Not quite, Hull Trains serve it.

 

[43074]

And there's another difference between the WCML and the ECML - on the ECML there are 3 open access routes (Hull, Bradford & Sunderland) - smaller stations such as Northallerton and Retford are served by open access operators in addition to those calls made by East Coast.

On the WCML, Virgin are the only InterCity operator so it's effectively tough luck if Virgin Trains decide not to stop their trains at your station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Timetables will always be a compromise and every change results in loosers as well as winners and like it or not 80% of all journeys on the network are to/from London so many services will be capital centric.

Exactly. On East Midlands Trains there are 5 departures between 07:00 and 08:00 from Leicester to London. In the same time frame, going Northbound, there are just 2 InterCity services - both of which call at all stations to Sheffield. Being in Nottingham before 08:30 having arrived on a fast service is impossible because of a London centric recast in 2008 on this route.

 

[cuccir]

The absence of a London Midland equvialent is a major factor here.

Another is the overall lower population density up the East Coast, combined with the A1 that runs pretty much parallel to the ECML. This means that the relatively small towns have good connections to large rural hinterlands, and to other (bigger) cities around them. This allows people to drive longish distances to these stations and park-up, which is more difficult in the busier West Midlands.

As someone in the North-East with family in both Nottingham and Lincoln, I know that many people in those areas will drive to Grantham/Newark for a direct train to the NE/Scotland, rather than change trains. This must boost numbers for these stations quite a bit.

The service-to population ratio is also better in the East than the West, meaning more stops are required to fill trains. Together, East Midlands+North East+Yorkshire add up to the same population as West Mildands+North West, but are served by two mainlines (MML + ECML) compared to one (WCML)