East Grinstead question

[philabos]

I recently returned from the UK and while there we used the Victoria-East Grinstead service mid day.
I believe it was a 12 carriage formation and happily for us operates every 30 minutes.
Quite convenient.
However in both directions I was reminded of a line from an old song, 15 cars and 15 restless riders.
I realize DfT specifies service levels, but curious why 2 tph is considered necessary.
I unearthed my 1986 BR timetable, and sure enough 1 tph in that time mid day.

 

[bramling]

I recently returned from the UK and while there we used the Victoria-East Grinstead service mid day.
I believe it was a 12 carriage formation and happily for us operates every 30 minutes.
Quite convenient.
However in both directions I was reminded of a line from an old song, 15 cars and 15 restless riders.
I realize DfT specifies service levels, but curious why 2 tph is considered necessary.
I unearthed my 1986 BR timetable, and sure enough 1 tph in that time mid day.

It can get quite busy especially inwards of Oxted. They could probably turn one of the two trains at Oxted without being too much of a hardship, but why bother when it’s only another few miles to East Grinstead?

It’s been 2tph at least as far back as the 90s, although of course in those days Oxted-Uckfield ran as a shuttle so the 2tph was the only London service.

Generally the East Grinstead line has led a slightly charmed life for a while, not only has it been 2tph for many years but it was always 8 cars through the day even in the 1990s.

 

[etr221]

IIRC, the East Grinstead service went up from 1 to 2 tph on electrification in the late 1980s - so it was in line with other Southern electric 'local' services on other lines serving the same 20+ miles from London belt (which also went to 2 tph on electrification), while Uckfield is the last non-electrified line with lower frequency. And I would say there is a case for saying that, for that belt round London, half hourly is probably the 'optimum' frequency - to give the ideal attractiveness vs potential traffic balance - as every 15 minutes is further in.

What is less justifiable is running full length, 10 or 12 carriage trains all day - but this is down to current preference for that, rather splitting trains down to 4 carrriages off peak - which has culminated in the fixed 12 carriage 700s on Thameslink: need in the peaks, but far too much otherwise.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't underestimate the problems that running 4-car trains around on the Victoria-East Croydon stretch causes during the day - from an operational sense it is sensible to use 8-car trains on East Grinstead trains just for that.

 

[philabos]

Thanks for the responses.
Must have been a slow day.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Bit like the Caterham line having 4tph. It doesn't need it, but further in towards London that frequency is needed, so the trains need to go somewhere to terminate.
Its also easier to run 12 car trains around during the day than split and join at the shoulder of the peaks, as all the additional ECS moves just cause disruption

 

[martinsh]

However in both directions I was reminded of a line from an old song, 15 cars and 15 restless riders.

City Of New Orleans

 

[philabos]

No question about that.
We were alone in the car out of East Grinstead, no surprise there, but 4 of us at Victoria.
I can certainly understand why they don't want to break up sets, it was the tph.
Of course a one day sample is not instructive thus the reason for my post.

 

[Quakkerillo]

When I'm staying in London, I stay at a friend's in Upper Warlingham, so I use both the East Grinstead lines and Caterham lines.
Usage can vary greatly, and it's true that in the off-peak sometimes it can seem a bit busy. But generally, the 4TPH from Caterham and 2TPH from East Grinstead are very well used from East Croydon into the city or vice versa. But on weekends, I certainly find the 2tph still very well-used at Upper Warlingham, and any less than 8 carriages 2x/h would definitely lead to lower comfort.
It's very well possible that your train was running right behind a (delayed) service going the same way, so that yours was underloaded and the other a bit overloaded.

 

[Glenn1969]

East Grinstead actually gets 4tph some hours with a Thameslink service as well. Is that necessary or should those units terminate elsewhere?

 

[Quakkerillo]

The thameslink is peak hours only, and at those hours they're definitely needed on this line! Basically all trains have standees by the time they reach East Croydon from the South from my (limited) experience whenever I'm over there.

 

[Surreytraveller]

East Grinstead actually gets 4tph some hours with a Thameslink service as well. Is that necessary or should those units terminate elsewhere?

Absolutely its necessary! There's nowhere else for the trains to go anyway, as the Brighton mainline is full to capacity

 

[RichJF]

The East Grinstead line is very peaky in terms of loadings. Inwards of Oxted there are a lot of shoulder peak hours services (between 9-10am & 4-5pm, 7-8pm) that are full and standing so running 10/12 cars at these times makes sense.

I think the desire to eliminate splitting of trains on the BML or at major London stations results in long trains being run to terminii. Probably also fits in with pathing north of Croydon and with many other routes at capacity then it makes sense to send the train off to a line that has the pathing capacity to take 2 tph.

The East Grinstead line has only relatively recently had platforms extended to take 12 cars (c 7 years ago) & even then some stations are still only 8 car capable physically.

Just to add, East Grinstead is a massively busier place & has lots more population in the 21st century than before electrification.