East Midlands connectivity to HS2

[CdBrux]

Mod Note: Split from MML Electrification thread

in 20 years time if capacity hits its limit, the MML will be flat out of ideas to improve and all that land that is currently available will unlikely be available. I don't believe that a really fast train should have to use the same tracks as slow/stopper trains. Its convenient yes, but its hard to maximize a railways potential when its own services are in the way.

Is not the solution currently known as HS2?

 

[Mollman]

Is not the solution currently known as HS2?

Is issue with HS2 is that it doesn't help the MML much apart from Sheffield. Leicester is completely bypassed whilst folk for Derby and Nottingham are forced off at Toton and have to catch a tram, bus or anther train. From my experience if a direct service is available people will take it, even if the journey time is longer.

 

[HSTEd]

Is issue with HS2 is that it doesn't help the MML much apart from Sheffield. Leicester is completely bypassed whilst folk for Derby and Nottingham are forced off at Toton and have to catch a tram, bus or anther train. From my experience if a direct service is available people will take it, even if the journey time is longer.

That assumes they are within walking distance of the station.
If its a matter of driving to Nottingham or Derby station or driving to Toton, they will drive to Toton.

 

[The_Engineer]

That assumes they are within walking distance of the station.
If its a matter of driving to Nottingham or Derby station or driving to Toton, they will drive to Toton.

Agreed. The traffic in those to cities is so awful that it will be quicker to get to Toton from eastern Derby or western Nottingham than to their respective city centres at most times of the day.....

 

[edwin_m]

Agreed. The traffic in those to cities is so awful that it will be quicker to get to Toton from eastern Derby or western Nottingham than to their respective city centres at most times of the day.....

Inward visitors are also important for local prosperity, possibly more so than people living locally travelling out. Most inward visitors will have destinations in the city centres and won't particularly want to be dropped about eight miles away. Unless there is a very slick connection to a fast service into Nottingham or Derby (which means heavy rail - the tram is too slow) the HS2 option won't be quick enough for city centre journeys to justify the extra hassle of a change.

 

[HSTEd]

There is always the option of a tram train, you could use the railway into the city centre and then link onto the tram route through the centre (in the case of Nottingham anyway).

 

[The_Engineer]

There is always the option of a tram train, you could use the railway into the city centre and then link onto the tram route through the centre (in the case of Nottingham anyway).

The tram's being extended to Toton HS2 station, according to plans I saw.

 

[HSTEd]

The tram's being extended to Toton HS2 station, according to plans I saw.

Yes but for much of Nottingham the tram journey is probably too slow.

Given the 52 minute journey time to London from Toton, and the ~35 minute journey time from Toton-HS2 into Nottingham station.....

I would not say the current journey time of 1hr35-1hr50 really matches it.
Essentially anyone near a tram stop north of the station will use Toton.

Depending on how trams to Toton are routed.

And this doesn't count that whilst the trains may no longer be going into the KGX-St Pancras complex and lose Underground connectivity, they gain it back in spades with the combination of Euston and OOC, which gives them most of the same tube lines and the added benefit of Crossrail.

 

[edwin_m]

There is always the option of a tram train, you could use the railway into the city centre and then link onto the tram route through the centre (in the case of Nottingham anyway).

No way the two could be connected at Midland Station where the trams pass over at near right angles. A connection where the trams pass over the railway at Lenton South Junction might be possible but would add a slowish section of street running to what is supposed to be a fast connection. The Nottingham tram route limits trams to 2.5m wide and there is an 18m radius curve in the Lace Market, so no existing tram-train design could use it.

 

[HSTEd]

No way the two could be connected at Midland Station where the trams pass over at near right angles. A connection where the trams pass over the railway at Lenton South Junction might be possible but would add a slowish section of street running to what is supposed to be a fast connection.

The tram train could climb out of the current Platform 1 then rotate onto London Road/A60 and loop back to the existing route via High Pavement/Goosegate with one line in each.. Or via Bellergate and Upper Parliament Street, the loss in journey time would not be that drastic, and it can do literally anything the heavy rail one can do in journey times, after all it would be calling at platforms in the Heavy Rail station.

The Nottingham tram route limits trams to 2.5m wide and there is an 18m radius curve in the Lace Market, so no existing tram-train design could use it.

Alstom offer the Dualis in 2.4m width, which as I understand it is the width of the existing Nottingham tramway stock.
In addition, I have not been able to find a reference to the curve radius in the Lacemarket (it is not mentioned as a challenge in the Alstom Nottingham case study), however the standard Dualis minimum curve radius is listed as 25m, which is the same as that listed on the regular Citadis tram page.... so I don't think the curve is a showstopper. Also if you route back via Upper Parliament Street then you avoid the Lace Market entirely.

Routing via London Road also allows for a stop adjacent to the National Ice Stadium (or whatever it is called now?) and with a reverse curve onto the line would make it much cheaper to have a tram-train system to the east of Nottingham in the future.

 

[edwin_m]

The tram train could climb out of the current Platform 1 then rotate onto London Road/A60 and loop back to the existing route via High Pavement/Goosegate with one line in each.. Or via Bellergate and Upper Parliament Street, the loss in journey time would not be that drastic, and it can do literally anything the heavy rail one can do in journey times, after all it would be calling at platforms in the Heavy Rail station.

Bellargate is steeply uphill for a section, one way northbound and forms part of the inner ring road which regularly clogs with traffic at peak times. Re-joining the existing tram line would involve abolishing the Theatre Royal stop. The congestion issue would probably rule this route out even if southbound trams followed ethe flow of traffic via Lower Parliament Street.

Also it wouldn't be using the platforms at Nottingham station, as the tram-train would have to be low floor to run into the city centre. Possible a low platform could be built on the north site of the platform 1 track replacing the cycle store, but having access to only one track through the station would be operationally disruptive.

In addition, I have not been able to find a reference to the curve radius in the Lacemarket (it is not mentioned as a challenge in the Alstom Nottingham case study), however the standard Dualis minimum curve radius is listed as 25m, which is the same as that listed on the regular Citadis tram page.... so I don't think the curve is a showstopper.

I had this verbally from a NET person. The best reference I can find is this:
https://www.thetram.net/tram-track-replacement-at-lace-market.aspx

This section of the tram route boasts one of the tightest curves in Europe

Looking at Google on the maximum zoom it's certainly less than 25m and 18m looks about right.

However whether it's a train or a tram-train, my point was that a connecting service from Toton would have to be very tightly timed to make the HS2 journey time from London competitive with the existing route. Much of the commercial development in central Nottingham is clustering around the station and the whole of the centre is within 10min walk, so I don't think making it a tram-train change this much.

 

[HSTEd]

Bellargate is steeply uphill for a section, one way northbound and forms part of the inner ring road which regularly clogs with traffic at peak times. Re-joining the existing tram line would involve abolishing the Theatre Royal stop. The congestion issue would probably rule this route out even if southbound trams followed ethe flow of traffic via Lower Parliament Street.

I think there is just enough room for a 25m radius curve onto Upper Parliament street without removing the tram stop, although if possible you might want to move the southbound platform a couple of metres northwards, and I think the street north of the stop is straight enough to permit that.

Or potentially go to a single lead to make more room.

Also it wouldn't be using the platforms at Nottingham station, as the tram-train would have to be low floor to run into the city centre. Possible a low platform could be built on the north site of the platform 1 track replacing the cycle store, but having access to only one track through the station would be operationally disruptive.

Well if you are willing to sacrifice Platform 1 from heavy rail use.......
After all with the London traffic removed from the station there is likely to be less demand on the long platforms.

However whether it's a train or a tram-train, my point was that a connecting service from Toton would have to be very tightly timed to make the HS2 journey time from London competitive with the existing route. Much of the commercial development in central Nottingham is clustering around the station and the whole of the centre is within 10min walk, so I don't think making it a tram-train change this much.

10 minute journey time, ten minute connection at Toton, is a 20 minute transfer.
The saving in journey time is close to 30 minutes or so, and remember that HS2 offers direct access to Crossrail which is likely to be of interest to business types thanks to Canary Wharf etc.

Also it is important that we look beyond the obvious business market to the general population - this route has to be of use to as many people as possible to justify the cost and the political disruption.

 

[edwin_m]

10 minute journey time, ten minute connection at Toton, is a 20 minute transfer.
The saving in journey time is close to 30 minutes or so, and remember that HS2 offers direct access to Crossrail which is likely to be of interest to business types thanks to Canary Wharf etc.

Also it is important that we look beyond the obvious business market to the general population - this route has to be of use to as many people as possible to justify the cost and the political disruption.

London to Toton was planned to be 53min last time I looked. Whether routed via Beeston or by a new curve at Trowell the line into Nottingham has some very slow junctions (as does the one to Derby at Trent) so 10min is optimistic. The non-stop Nottingham-Derby time is 22min and as Toton would be further than half that I'd say around 15min. So with your 10min connection time it's about 1hr 18min.

Before the timetable change the fastest Nottingham-London was about 1hr 31min. The other fast trains were slower but could be accelerated by dropping the stops at Market Harborough (served by a Sheffield train now there is no need for a fast London-Sheffield) and East Midlands Parkway (little point in having a P&R for London services when there's a much better one at Toton).

So you're looking at a 13min saving max with a good connection, which as I said will be difficult because there is a need to connect simultaneously to both Nottingham and Derby, maybe with several HS2 trains quite close together, probably setting out on the same piece of track, and because the numerous junctions on the route mean timetabling may be sub-optimal.

 

[Class 170101]

The timetable on the MML is already sub-optimal.

 

[A0]

The timetable on the MML is already sub-optimal.

Come on - you'll have to do better than that. It's all very good making a generalised sweeping statement, now try backing that up with some facts.

The reality is the MML timetable has to achieve several aims within a certain set of constraints - some of which are temporary i.e. the fact there are only two available lines between Bedford & Kettering at present.

 

[kevjs]

Bellargate is steeply uphill for a section, one way northbound and forms part of the inner ring road which regularly clogs with traffic at peak times.

If Connecting Eastside ever gets finished Beller Gate etc will become a 2 way bus / cycle route - with the A60 being routed on the current southbound A60 route - they've got as far south as Sneinton Market / Trent FM Arena, just the bit to the BBC Island is left - Canal Street being downgraded from a major through route to a car park access would be the obvious time to do that. https://www.nottinghaminsight.org.uk/d/95231 Shows the plans from a few years ago but Phase 2 obviously hasn't happened yet.

 

[Roast Veg]

It certainly seems that Toton will be a competitive way out of Nottingham, but what about Derby travellers? Will many railhead it to there?

 

[HSTEd]

Assuming access from the A52 into the station is handled properly..... yes

 

[HSTEd]

The non-stop Nottingham-Derby time is 22min and as Toton would be further than half that I'd say around 15min. So with your 10min connection time it's about 1hr 18min.

15 minutes to cover ~12km seems a little pessimistic.
Especially considering it consists of a dead straight and a sweeping curve at Long Eaton.
60mph should be obtainable for a tram-train esque vehicle rather rapidly and it should be able to sustain it the entire way.

So you're looking at a 13min saving max with a good connection, which as I said will be difficult because there is a need to connect simultaneously to both Nottingham and Derby, maybe with several HS2 trains quite close together, probably setting out on the same piece of track, and because the numerous junctions on the route mean timetabling may be sub-optimal.

Well if we use some form of tram train, then a significant fraction of the passenger traffic will be using the tram anyway to reach Toton and thus will not gain a change, as they will merely change at Toton instead of at the current station.
EDIT:

I also checked, even if we use the Toton-bound tram line until where it crosses back over the railway, that is only ~2000m of tram track, much of it over a segregated alignment and the comparable track is in the Nottingham station approach, so I can't see it losing a substantial amount of time.

Especially at 60mph we will eat up the ~10km distance from there in something like 7 minutes. (The tram route is only 200m or so further than the railway!)

 

[edwin_m]

15 minutes to cover ~12km seems a little pessimistic.
Especially considering it consists of a dead straight and a sweeping curve at Long Eaton.
60mph should be obtainable for a tram-train esque vehicle rather rapidly and it should be able to sustain it the entire way.


Well if we use some form of tram train, then a significant fraction of the passenger traffic will be using the tram anyway to reach Toton and thus will not gain a change, as they will merely change at Toton instead of at the current station.
EDIT:

I also checked, even if we use the Toton-bound tram line until where it crosses back over the railway, that is only ~2000m of tram track, much of it over a segregated alignment and the comparable track is in the Nottingham station approach, so I can't see it losing a substantial amount of time.

Especially at 60mph we will eat up the ~10km distance from there in something like 7 minutes. (The tram route is only 200m or so further than the railway!)

Sweeping curve? When there were regular services from Attenborough Junction to Toton it was a 20mph crawl for a mile or so.

Between the tram crossing at Lenton Lane and Nottingham station there are two stops and a fair amount of street running in the Meadows.

 

[HSTEd]

Sweeping curve? When there were regular services from Attenborough Junction to Toton it was a 20mph crawl for a mile or so.

Google Earth makes the East to North curve something like 400m radius.
That should be good for 40-50mph at the least.

And with rapid acceleration and decelleration of a tram-train unit, the drag on journey times should not be too excessive.

Between the tram crossing at Lenton Lane and Nottingham station there are two stops and a fair amount of street running in the Meadows.

The street running appears to be down a local access road, rather than on the adjacent main road - which I would hope would make it slightly less likely to clog in heavy traffic.

 

[edwin_m]

Google Earth makes the East to North curve something like 400m radius.
That should be good for 40-50mph at the least.

And with rapid acceleration and decelleration of a tram-train unit, the drag on journey times should not be too excessive.


The street running appears to be down a local access road, rather than on the adjacent main road - which I would hope would make it slightly less likely to clog in heavy traffic.

You have some quite slow junctions each end of the curve. Attenborough could be remodelled without too much difficulty but Meadow Lane sits on top of an embankment with houses each side. HS2 is close by but I don't think it changes this bit.

Yes it's a local access road but that means it's 30mph (on a quick Google it appears to be a mixture of 50km/h and 25km/h for trams).

 

[Class 170101]

Come on - you'll have to do better than that. It's all very good making a generalised sweeping statement, now try backing that up with some facts.

The reality is the MML timetable has to achieve several aims within a certain set of constraints - some of which are temporary i.e. the fact there are only two available lines between Bedford & Kettering at present.

So the extra time added to make Thameslink work isn't sub-optimal then? (BTW sub-optimal is being polite about it).

 

[po8crg]

If there are wires on the MML from Derby to Toton to Nottingham, then a few EMUs could provide a fast, frequent service connecting the two cities to Toton HS2. Even 6tph is only five or six units given how short a run it is.

Leicester is more difficult to serve well from Toton, given how far away it is and the fact that it has a pretty good service to London on MML anyway, in terms of both time and frequency - it's hard to beat 65 minutes. Wouldn't surprise me, though, if the MML services add a Toton call, so people going away from London from Leicester/Loughborough can change at Toton for Birmingham/Leeds/York/Newcastle.

The original HS2 documents justified not making provision for four-tracking Birmingham-London by suggesting that opening a new route from Toton to London would be preferable if demand was such that the Birmingham-London line was over capacity. Any such route would almost certainly pass near Leicester, and there certainly could be a Leicester Parkway.

(IMO, the obvious route here would be Toton-Leicester-Peterborough-Norwich with a line coming up from London through Cambridge to connect somewhere near Peterborough, but I think that discussion belongs in another thread)

 

[grumpyoldman01]

With regard to access to Toton from Derby and Nottingham, I live just over 8 miles from the site of the HS2 station site in south Derby.

At certain times - say in the middle of a Sunday morning - it typically takes about 10 minutes by car from crossing the Erewash Valley line to be walking in my front door, using the A52; however, on a weekday afternoon, it can easily take twice that time.

Regarding Nottingham, one part of the A52 - between Priory Island and the QMC, where its a single carriageway running between the university and Woolaton Park - can itself take 10 minutes by car outside peak times; but even without that congestion, it takes about 20 minutes to the city centre from the Toton overbridge.

For northern Nottingham, the quickest way from Toton will be north up the M1 to Junction 26, then on to the A610; for northern parts of the city (like Top Valley and Bulwell), and on to areas outside the city boundaries like Hucknall, its a trip along the A6002. Then you've got to expect delays when you get to the junction with Hucknall Lane (by the Morrison's); I've known 15 minutes to get through those particular traffic lights late in an afternoon.

So unless there are major investments in roads, it will be extremely difficult to get to/from Toton HS2 station by road.

Toton will be a large station, so a minimum of 10 minutes will be needed from barrier to train departure; then, of course, there's parking.

So by the time you add all of these together, you're easily adding 40 minutes for people in Derby and 60 in Nottingham to get to/from Toton by road at most times of the day.

What happens when you get to London? How many passengers want to finish their journey on the Euston Road? How many will gain a benefit over present connections at St Pancras by changing to CrossRail at OOC or the Northern Line Waterloo branch at Euston?

I've been retired for over 10 years, but that doesn't stop me remembering where I've been going to when I've used MML services to St Pancras; and what has surprised me is that - apart from going to Excel - every journey I've made over the last 25 years or so will be worse going by HS2 and through Euston than St Pancras. Most of my visits to London have either been passing through (onward by Eurostar, Thameslink, or on HS1 domestics), or by Piccadilly or Circle (mostly on the Circle a few stations east but some west to destinations which can't be reached by changing at OOC unless there's another one at Paddington, and - unless major changes to Euston underground are constructed - will require a walk to Euston Square first).

I'm not sure how long it would take me now, but in the past I've walked from my house to Derby station in 40 minutes; walking is the worst case scenario, for I have 8 buses an hour to the station just a couple of minutes walk from my home, and another four each hour if I walk to the next bus stop. One afternoon, I walked off platform 1 at Derby station just as a bus home was arriving, and I was walking into my front door 10 minutes after the train had arrived! That was, of course, a one off; but there's no way that would be possible via Toton - after 10 minutes, I might only just be passing through the barrier!

Regarding rail transits to/from Toton, there used to be a 'Meridian' ECS working between Etches Park and Sheffield which went via the Erewash Valley, and it was allowed 3 minutes between Sheet Stores Junction and Toton Centre; fast 'Meridians' from Derby to Sheet Stores were allowed 7 minutes, so after the Derby station works are finished, a total journey time of a little more than 10 minutes should be possible)

Regarding Nottingham to Toton, in the last timetable there were early morning Northern services between Nottingham and Sheffield (one each way) which were route to/from the Erewash Valley via Toton; these were allowed 13 minutes between Nottingham and Toton Centre

I'm sure most people will look at TOTAL journeys and times, and determine route by convenience, etc; journey time will only come into the equation if there is a SIGNIFICANT journey time reduction, and I believe this won't be achievable between the East Midlands and London using HS2 (apart from people who live in the shadow of the hub station in places like Long Eaton, Chilwell, Toton, Sandiacre, Stapleford, etc.

Of course, I'm looking at this from a personal point of view, so I'm thinking in terms of travelling out from Toton; but why will people travelling in use it? Precedence suggests they won't.

How many people going to watch a cricket match at Trent Bridge or a football match at the City Ground use East Midlands Parkway? Taking the Sheffield "stopper" and a taxi (from EMD) gives a quicker journey time between London and the two sports venues listed than via Nottingham. And the quickest way to Nottingham Uni's main campus is by the same train service and taxi from Long Eaton; but does anyone go that way?

I believe that - despite all of HS2's hype about rebalancing the economy and so on - Toton will only really be of use for some long distance commuters living in the "greater Toton" area; not really sure how big that will be, but it's unlikely to include much of Derby or Nottingham.

 

[HSTEd]

What happens when you get to London? How many passengers want to finish their journey on the Euston Road? How many will gain a benefit over present connections at St Pancras by changing to CrossRail at OOC or the Northern Line Waterloo branch at Euston?

Considering St Pancras is also on Euston Road.....

Most of my visits to London have either been passing through (onward by Eurostar, Thameslink, or on HS1 domestics), or by Piccadilly or Circle (mostly on the Circle a few stations east but some west to destinations which can't be reached by changing at OOC unless there's another one at Paddington, and - unless major changes to Euston underground are constructed - will require a walk to Euston Square first).

My understanding is that Euston Square will essentially become part of Euston station with an underground connection to the main station.

As such the only line you have worse access to by going via Euston will be the Picadilly Line, and we gain Crossrail in compensation.

 

[The Ham]

Considering St Pancras is also on Euston Road.....



My understanding is that Euston Square will essentially become part of Euston station with an underground connection to the main station.

As such the only line you have worse access to by going via Euston will be the Picadilly Line, and we gain Crossrail in compensation.

There's also likely to be Crossrail 2, although it could well be that if you're heading to places on the SWML you could be quicker changing at OOC and heading via Heathrow and accessing Woking via the Southern Approach.

Although that may not benefit many people the journey times from (say) Basingstoke to Derby could be faster and possibly more frequent. As there wouldn't be a need to fight across London.

As such, although the numbers going to London may be small there could still be a reasonable number of people heading south.

 

[snowball]

DfT press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/up-to-18-million-to-maximise-benefits-of-hs2-for-east-midlands

East Midlands HS2 Partnership will receive up to £1.8 million of funding to help realise the extraordinary potential of the new HS2 station at Toton, the Transport Secretary has announced today (11 July 2018).

With high speed trains serving Nottingham, Derby, Leicester and other mainline stations, a new station at Toton will deliver significantly faster journeys for passengers and improved connections to Birmingham, London and Leeds.

This builds on significant previous funding for the region, with the government providing Midlands Connect with £25 million to develop a transformational transport strategy for the region, as well as investing £1.8 billion on the region’s motorways and trunk roads and distributing £1.7 billion from the Local Growth Fund.

This additional funding will further develop proposals for public transport connections to the Toton hub, ensuring surrounding communities benefit from new rail, tram and bus services, as well as improved road access, to the new HS2 station.

Proposals also include the development of an innovation campus — creating 10,000 skilled jobs — and 4 new garden villages around the station, driving regeneration and unlocking new housing opportunities. By 2043, it is anticipated that up to 74,000 new jobs will be created, boosting the regional economy by £4 billion.

 

[edwin_m]

With high speed trains serving Nottingham, Derby, Leicester and other mainline stations

That's either just badly written or downright misleading. People will interpret "High Speed Trains" as HS2 classic compatibles and expect to see them in those three cities.