Perhaps the trains should all be painted in the same colour scheme too, say blue and grey ......
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East Midlands franchise prospectus
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Perhaps the trains should all be painted in the same colour scheme too, say blue and grey ......
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northwichcat
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TransPennine Express services via Preston don't go from one side of the Pennines to the other - even if you ignore arguments about whether South TPE services cross the Pennines. However, Liverpool to Norwich does at least serve the East Midlands and Leeds to Nottingham does at least serve the North.
And as for Virgin services they aren't just used for transporting virgins to and from London.
And as for Virgin services they aren't just used for transporting virgins to and from London.
jamesontheroad
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And as for Virgin services they aren't just used for transporting virgins to and from London.
And as for CrossCountry, well they make everyone cross up and down the country.
godfreycomplex
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Mordac
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New consultation document out:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-east-midlands-rail-franchise
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-east-midlands-rail-franchise
43074
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https://www.change.org/p/secretary-...lish&utm_content=fb_share_post_copy_6:control
A petition has been started against the proposals to segregate the London commuter and InterCity flows. I don't think people would be against it if there was more detail on what the proposals mean, e.g. will any Sheffield/Nottingham trains still call at Bedford and Luton in the contra-peak direction? Will there still be direct Wellingborough to Leicester journeys? What will the balance of longer distance and Corby electrics be in the London bound AM peak?
Personally I'm in favour of the proposals overall but accept there will have to be compromises, as the MML is at saturation with the extra Thameslink services from next year anyway, there simply isn't the capacity in the peaks to maintain existing service levels everywhere by running additional trains.
A petition has been started against the proposals to segregate the London commuter and InterCity flows. I don't think people would be against it if there was more detail on what the proposals mean, e.g. will any Sheffield/Nottingham trains still call at Bedford and Luton in the contra-peak direction? Will there still be direct Wellingborough to Leicester journeys? What will the balance of longer distance and Corby electrics be in the London bound AM peak?
Personally I'm in favour of the proposals overall but accept there will have to be compromises, as the MML is at saturation with the extra Thameslink services from next year anyway, there simply isn't the capacity in the peaks to maintain existing service levels everywhere by running additional trains.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There was a lot of whining about that (partial) segregation on the south WCML, but on balance it does work reasonably well. And that's with 11 car Pendolinos - with shorter IC trains it makes even more sense.
The one thing I *would* say is that all or most ICs should stop at Bedford pick up/set down only to maintain connections.
You can tell there's austerity when the DaFT are using a free survey tool!
The one thing I *would* say is that all or most ICs should stop at Bedford pick up/set down only to maintain connections.
You can tell there's austerity when the DaFT are using a free survey tool!
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northwichcat
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thenorthern
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In the survey it discussed Luton Airport Parkway and how well I thought links to Luton airport were. I mentioned that I knew the links were fairly good but weren't well advertised.
I think the Government may be looking at improving rail links to Luton Airport or advertising the fact that there are direct links from the East Midlands. It will be interesting if anything does happen.
I think the Government may be looking at improving rail links to Luton Airport or advertising the fact that there are direct links from the East Midlands. It will be interesting if anything does happen.
Has the Bedford signalling/routing been sorted yet? Stopping there used to carry a very severe time-penalty with very severe approach-control on the signal for the UF>US crossover, slow running to and over the loop-line through the station rather than continuing on the US, and then approach-control again on the US>UF signal. (The down direction was sorted by the new platform, of course but the way that was done is responsible for the 110 limit on the DF (in the middle of a lengthy high-speed section) whilst the UF is unbroken 125.)
MCR247
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The same people would put the route with CrossCountry purely because it doesn't just stay in the East Midlands it goes aCross the Country
Can someone explain what happens in regards to the PRM regulations in 2019. There seems to be very little regard for Lincolnshire in the document by the DfT and separately the implications that the 153's will not be modified.
Will we see 153's post 2019?
Will we see 153's post 2019?
Kneedown
Established Member
The same people would put the route with CrossCountry purely because it doesn't just stay in the East Midlands it goes aCross the Country
If Cross Country had every route that goes "across the country", then they would pretty much have a momopoly on all services that are not confined within one city!
northwichcat
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There's currently 14 x 156s which will be off-lease in 2018/2019 and available for another operator to take on - EMT would seem a logical place for them to go.
MidlandMainlie
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How many DMU's are there going off leave that could be taken up by the next EMT franchise?
northwichcat
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http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134377
But they aren't all off-lease before Dec 2019 and other TOCs will likely want some as well.
Surely an additional 14 x 156's cannot cover all of the withdrawn 153's diagrams. What about the 153's converting back into 155's to meet PRM regs.
Kettledrum
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The same people would put the route with CrossCountry purely because it doesn't just stay in the East Midlands it goes aCross the Country
....and some people wouldn't put anything else in with the cross country franchise because the existing cross country franchise operator has made such a mess of it, with some of the worst over-crowding, delays and customer satisfaction in the country.
If the XC franchise is so difficult to run successfully and profitably as it is, why put another route into it, and give them additional problems?
From time to time, EMT have struggled with their non-London routes, whether it's Liverpool to Norwich or Derby to Crewe but it's nowhere near as bad as XC.
EMT also claim to have one of the best punctuality records, and if true, why make in-necessary changes?
northwichcat
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They have 17 x 153s currently and there's some doubling up already so I would have thought 14 x 2 car Sprinters would be at least close to being adequate replacement.
thenorthern
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Looking at the franchise from when East Midlands Trains won it in 2007 to now there hasn't really been much improvement compared to other franchises that have run for so long.
The main benefit has been the half hourly Sheffield services as previously they were hourly. Also the hourly Matlock to Newark Castle service, reopening of Corby station and introduction of some later services.
At the same time however there hasn't been any new trains ordered for the franchise and all the rolling stock remains the same with a couple of trains cascaded from other operators. All the trains apart from the Meridians are at least 25 years old with some now more than 40 years old.
Also services such as the Burton and Barnsley services have been cut, the Lincoln to Birmingham was cut to Lincoln to Leicester and the 170s were replaced by 156s, the Crewe to Derby 170s have become 153s and the Norwich to Liverpool 170s have become 158s.
Most of it is down to the DfT but it does seem like the 2007-2019 East Midlands Franchise has been a rather boring uneventful franchise where little has been done to improve services.
The main benefit has been the half hourly Sheffield services as previously they were hourly. Also the hourly Matlock to Newark Castle service, reopening of Corby station and introduction of some later services.
At the same time however there hasn't been any new trains ordered for the franchise and all the rolling stock remains the same with a couple of trains cascaded from other operators. All the trains apart from the Meridians are at least 25 years old with some now more than 40 years old.
Also services such as the Burton and Barnsley services have been cut, the Lincoln to Birmingham was cut to Lincoln to Leicester and the 170s were replaced by 156s, the Crewe to Derby 170s have become 153s and the Norwich to Liverpool 170s have become 158s.
Most of it is down to the DfT but it does seem like the 2007-2019 East Midlands Franchise has been a rather boring uneventful franchise where little has been done to improve services.
Kettledrum
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Absolutely right.
We're told having a "privatised" railway means innovation and private sector investment, yet unless the DfT build infrastructure and service improvements into the franchising and contracting process, they won't happen.
The new franchise consultation is equally un-imaginative:
Nothing about specifying re-opening of Leicester to Burton for passengers;
Nothing about upgrading Derby to Crewe
One detail often forgotten was that the spec for the East Mids bid only involved 4tph from St Pancras, with the Derby/Notts stoppers splitting and joining at Leicester. The winning bid was the only one to propose 5tph.
I agree that other than the gradual re-mapping of local routes and combining them, and making several successful bids for extra stock for the Liverpool route, the local routes haven't seen much changed.
I agree that other than the gradual re-mapping of local routes and combining them, and making several successful bids for extra stock for the Liverpool route, the local routes haven't seen much changed.
Mordac
Established Member
Well, it is a consultation. How about you write up those ideas in your reply?
The complete rebuilding of a fleet of absolute dogs of 15x units from the length and breadth of the country into what are to this day fairly clean and presentable trains has to count for something surely? I don't think anyone else has had such a varied ragtag fleet of wrecks and made them into something half decent (though they are struggling mechanically now).
To elaborate, the 15x fleet came from Central, Northern (West and East), ATW, TPE, Anglia and Wessex. Many of them had been appallingly treated by their previously owners and required an awful lot of work to get into a half decent state.
They've not made many headlines but have in my opinion done a decent job of running a fairly good quality service with limited resources, while openly acknowledging the areas they are lacking in (Lincolnshire for example). They also came up with innovative ways of dealing with the problems inherent with their franchise (use of Intercity rolling stock to cover local services etc) and have really embraced things like community rail partnerships.
To elaborate, the 15x fleet came from Central, Northern (West and East), ATW, TPE, Anglia and Wessex. Many of them had been appallingly treated by their previously owners and required an awful lot of work to get into a half decent state.
They've not made many headlines but have in my opinion done a decent job of running a fairly good quality service with limited resources, while openly acknowledging the areas they are lacking in (Lincolnshire for example). They also came up with innovative ways of dealing with the problems inherent with their franchise (use of Intercity rolling stock to cover local services etc) and have really embraced things like community rail partnerships.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Well said - and not forgetting the reformation of the 222 fleet , as well as bringing in the ex Hull Trains sets. The HST's cosmetically have been looked after well.
Little change though I think on the most money making section - south of Leicester to that there London.....I would expect a major recast of the London extension route , in line with what "Thameslink" does.
MidlandMainlie
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Thanks so there should be enough 156's spare to see off the 153's and ensure a minimum of 2 car services. The 170's would be a welcome addition to the franchise but they and the ex LO 172's will probably be snapped up by time the EMT is relet.
I carn't see the logic in splitting the Liverpool-Norwich at Nottingham but then transferring the XC Cardiff-Nottingham to EM franchise unless the latter is split at Birmingham.
The Birmingham-Stansted service I think is a good one to transfer to EM franchise, and if possible the Leicester-Lincoln service should be cut back to Nottingham but start at Birmingham becoming a Birmingham-Nottingham via Leicester. This would take over the stops between Birmingham and Leicester allowing the Birmingham Stansted to run fast to Leicester
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thenorthern
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The 15x fleet has been improved yes and I would agree that the 158s are now better inside than many trains that are newer than the 158s.
But lets not forget in the days of Central Trains many services such as the Robin Hood Line, Crewe to Derby, Liverpool to Norwich and Lincoln to Leicester were operated by Class 170s which at the time were brand new. Since then Crewe to Derby has become 153s, Robin Hood Line and Lincoln to Leicester has become 156s and Liverpool to Norwich has become 158s. That is the DfTs fault however not EMT.
But lets not forget in the days of Central Trains many services such as the Robin Hood Line, Crewe to Derby, Liverpool to Norwich and Lincoln to Leicester were operated by Class 170s which at the time were brand new. Since then Crewe to Derby has become 153s, Robin Hood Line and Lincoln to Leicester has become 156s and Liverpool to Norwich has become 158s. That is the DfTs fault however not EMT.
EMT are doing a bloody good job of making a faux-silk purse out of a sows ear - but it's obvious the stock is holding them back. Aside from the Meridians (which are now looking very tired inside too) the fleet is now 30 years old and will be into it's fifth decade by the time the next franchise ends. Surely the next franchise has to be something better than trying in vain to get the rolling stock to be reliable and to modern standards?
At a base level surely it's got to be something along the lines of:-
- 397/801 (125mph EMU) for London to Corby
- 802 (or similar 125mph D/EMU) for London to Nottingham/Sheffield and Liverpool to Norwich (and any new regional express routes)
- 195/755(DMU equiv) for Crewe to Derby/Nottingham* and other busier routes
- 158 after a good refurb for everything else (if not 195s)
If not a full on GA style replacement with 802 and 755s?
* Heck, that route should be Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport to Crewe to Derby to Nottingham....
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